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3 down MLB - finding the elusive beast


I'm absolutely in the minority on this one, so it's possible I'm really wrong, but I can't stand his tape. People tout his instincts, but he regularly crashes the wrong gap, or gets sucked in by play action. I only see good plays when he's unlocked and can shoot into the backfield. He's Elandon Roberts with less athleticism and fewer high notes.

Okay, fire away. I'm sure this isn't a popular take. :)
Sounds terrible
 
I'm absolutely in the minority on this one, so it's possible I'm really wrong, but I can't stand his tape. People tout his instincts, but he regularly crashes the wrong gap, or gets sucked in by play action. I only see good plays when he's unlocked and can shoot into the backfield. He's Elandon Roberts with less athleticism and fewer high notes.

Okay, fire away. I'm sure this isn't a popular take. :)

I didn't have that take on Jewell, but I watch Leighton Vander Esch and think the same thing. Worse, Vander Esch is always a step late in coverage because he doesn't diagnose routes well. Jewell seems to take the right first step. I just wonder if Jewell is strong enough to win in the NFL. He came in as a 200 lb. freshman, so his frame is probably maxed out around 230 lb.

I like Fred Warner from BYU a lot. Probably more than either of them. I think he's a Jamie Collins type player. Skai Moore is a good player too. Vander Esch may end up taken in the mid-to-late 1st but I don't think he's any better than Warner, Moore, or Jewell except on paper. Obviously all four of them are different players, but aside from Vander Esch they're probably all best suited to WLB.
 
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I didn't have that take on Jewell, but I watch Leighton Vander Esch and think the same thing. Worse, Vander Esch is always a step late in coverage because he doesn't diagnose routes well. Jewell seems to take the right first step. I just wonder if Jewell is strong enough to win in the NFL. He came in as a 200 lb. freshman, so his frame is probably maxed out around 230 lb.

I like Fred Warner from BYU a lot. Probably more than either of them. I think he's a Jamie Collins type player. Skai Moore is a good player too. Vander Esch may end up taken in the mid-to-late 1st but I don't think he's any better than Warner, Moore, or Jewell except on paper.
Do not want I want Landry if we are going pass rush without moving up.
Would a first round QB be shocking?
Jackson or Rudolph?
 
Do not want I want Landry if we are going pass rush without moving up.
Would a first round QB be shocking?
Jackson or Rudolph?

Just curious, but do you ever read thread titles? :D We have a million threads for general draft discussion, while this one was set up for discussing a 3-down MLB. ;)
 
I didn't have that take on Jewell, but I watch Leighton Vander Esch and think the same thing. Worse, Vander Esch is always a step late in coverage because he doesn't diagnose routes well. Jewell seems to take the right first step. I just wonder if Jewell is strong enough to win in the NFL. He came in as a 200 lb. freshman, so his frame is probably maxed out around 230 lb.

I like Fred Warner from BYU a lot. Probably more than either of them. I think he's a Jamie Collins type player. Skai Moore is a good player too. Vander Esch may end up taken in the mid-to-late 1st but I don't think he's any better than Warner, Moore, or Jewell except on paper.

I certainly hear where you're coming from, but I have a slightly different take. I have mixed feelings about Leighton Vander Esch (from here on: LVE), but I'll try to breakdown why he has several advantages over those players. I should mention before I begin that I love Warner in space. If he were a coverage only player, sign me up! So fluid and explosive. I'm just really disheartened by his attempts to take on blocks. He's allergic to contact. Otherwise, he would be a perfect defensive weapon against the increasing prevalence of spread and RPO offenses.

LVE is an exceptional athlete whose size / speed combo is generally only available in the top rounds. Look at the top 10 hype that Tremaine Edmunds is getting for his size and speed. Well, LVE is just as big, and tested as well or better in every category except for the 40. Additionally, he's really only played for a year or two at his current position, but has displayed consistent growth throughout his career. He's not perfect by any means, but between the outstanding physical profile and the rapid upward trajectory, he'll probably go in the mid-late 1st round.

Measurables chart shows a rare all around athlete. He also scored off the charts for SPARQ (
141.5 1.7 96.0%) and RAS (9.87), if you put much stock into those metrics. I don't take them as Gospel, but I do think they're useful tools to add to the mix when evaluating.

Off-LOS Linebacker

2018 NFL Draft Class RAS

Mockdraftable.com profiles:

LVE:

upload_2018-3-26_12-14-9.png



Warner:

upload_2018-3-26_12-19-12.png


Jewell:

upload_2018-3-26_12-19-59.png


Moore:

upload_2018-3-26_12-20-24.png



Despite his relatively low experience levels, which show up in the hesitation or slow first step at times, and his technique deficiencies -- for example, he throws a shoulder instead of punching, extending, and shedding, and this causes him to gets stuck on blocks and lose his balance far too often -- LVE managed to put up a wildly productive year. Compare his stats against the other players you mentioned:

LVE:
upload_2018-3-26_12-7-33.png
upload_2018-3-26_12-7-14.png

Warner:
upload_2018-3-26_12-8-17.png

Jewell:
upload_2018-3-26_12-9-27.png

Moore:
upload_2018-3-26_12-10-46.png


His solo tackles and forced fumbles stand out immediately. He's around the ball a LOT. While he doesn't have the route recognition that Skai Moore does (best in class, as far as I'm concerned), he still managed to pull down a few interceptions and bat away some balls. His ability in coverage should only improve; it was better in the games I saw at the end of the year compared with the beginning of the year. As I mentioned, that positive trend is why evaluators think he's more than a one-year wonder, and that he'll really flourish when he's able to benefit from NFL coaching and strength and conditioning.

Drafting LVE is an investment. You have to believe in your coaching staff, and in his ascending star. Personally, I think he would be a terrific fit here, and that once he worked through his deficiencies in technique, he would in time become the best linebacker on the squad. He is more versatile in space than Hightower, and generally a reliable player in terms of being in the right place at the right time.

He's not a finished product by any means, and I'm not sure he'll be an impact rookie in a read and react scheme. Put him in Pittsburgh, though, and let him just attack and blitz as part of an aggressive D, and he'll be in contention for defensive rookie of the year. It's all about coaching and upside with LVE. Who knows how it will turn out. I'd bet on him if he made it to 31, but I'm not a GM . . .
 

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Josey Jewell is a name I’ve seen pop up. Anybody have any thoughts on him and if he’d be a fit here? NFL.com has him as a 3-4 rounder. Great instincts, not the best athlete. Compared him to Sean Lee.
I think his upside is pretty similar to Preston Brown, who some people wanted to see with the Patriots. They've both got Will skillsets in terms of football intelligence and tackling ability, just without the ideal physical traits. There were times this past season where the Patriots just needed a guy to get to the right gap and make a tackle, but I think they'll aim for a little bit higher potential than that in the draft.
 
I should mention my dislike for Warner has subsided a bit. While he does shy away from blocks sometimes, maybe I've been too harsh on his body language. I've seen more examples of him stacking and shedding lately, so there's hope for him yet; maybe he doesn't totally lack courage. With a year in NFL coaching and strength and conditioning, he might develop into an all around player. I still have several others above him, though.

Leon Jacobs played ILB and OLB for Wisconsin. He tested with the edge players at the Combine, but I liked him better in space where he can use his speed to chase down plays. He compares better in size to a true inside linebacker like Jerod Mayo, David Harris, or Patrick Willis, and his speed in coverage is really impressive. The only player we have in that role is Elandon Roberts, and we would all like to upgrade him inside. Jacobs has the athleticism to do that. While he is undersized for edge, he's actually very physical, and probably relies on his bull rush and pole arm more than he should. He needs technical refinement, but his speed at that size is incredibly rare. Well worth a 4th round gamble.
 
I should mention my dislike for Warner has subsided a bit. While he does shy away from blocks sometimes, maybe I've been too harsh on his body language. I've seen more examples of him stacking and shedding lately, so there's hope for him yet; maybe he doesn't totally lack courage. With a year in NFL coaching and strength and conditioning, he might develop into an all around player. I still have several others above him, though.

Leon Jacobs played ILB and OLB for Wisconsin. He tested with the edge players at the Combine, but I liked him better in space where he can use his speed to chase down plays. He compares better in size to a true inside linebacker like Jerod Mayo, David Harris, or Patrick Willis, and his speed in coverage is really impressive. The only player we have in that role is Elandon Roberts, and we would all like to upgrade him inside. Jacobs has the athleticism to do that. While he is undersized for edge, he's actually very physical, and probably relies on his bull rush and pole arm more than he should. He needs technical refinement, but his speed at that size is incredibly rare. Well worth a 4th round gamble.
The need for a Mayo or Willis has declined greatly

All about athletes at LB that are fast and can cover
 
The need for a Mayo or Willis has declined greatly

All about athletes at LB that are fast and can cover

Jacobs can cover. He also ran a 4.48 at the Combine at 246 pounds. That's an impressive time for any size linebacker, but particularly for a guy who isn't a Deion Jones or Telvin Smith size (around 230). I said in stature he's closer to a Mayo (6'1, 242 vs 6'1, 246), because I doubt we're going to draft a 6' #230 linebacker very early (we took Roberts at the end of the 6th), but he's also not the same size as Hightower, McClellin, Flowers, or Van Noy, which seems to be the preferred build for our LB. In my scenario he would upgrade Elandon Roberts.


Roberts:

Height: 5113
Weight: 234
40 Yrd Dash: 4.60
20 Yrd Dash: 2.64
10 Yrd Dash: 1.67
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 25
Vertical Jump: 36
Broad Jump: 10'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.20


Jacobs:

Height: 6011
Weight: 246
40 Yrd Dash: 4.48
20 Yrd Dash: 2.61
10 Yrd Dash: 1.58
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 26
Vertical Jump: 35
Broad Jump: 10'02"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.44
3-Cone Drill: 7.14


Obviously you can't get a full picture from a highlight reel, but I like his versatility to play with physicality against the run, rush the passer, and also to drop successfully in coverage. I've seen him projected anywhere from the 4th to the 6th. I'd take him with 136, since I don't think he'd be available at 210, or whenever we pick again. Could be a nice bargain value vs spending a 1st or 2nd on LVE or Evans (assuming they're available), or Jefferson, who is a little smaller and doesn't play off blocks as well as Jacobs.

 
Jacobs can cover. He also ran a 4.48 at the Combine at 246 pounds. That's an impressive time for any size linebacker, but particularly for a guy who isn't a Deion Jones or Telvin Smith size (around 230). I said in stature he's closer to a Mayo (6'1, 242 vs 6'1, 246), because I doubt we're going to draft a 6' #230 linebacker very early (we took Roberts at the end of the 6th), but he's also not the same size as Hightower, McClellin, Flowers, or Van Noy, which seems to be the preferred build for our LB. In my scenario he would upgrade Elandon Roberts.


Roberts:

Height: 5113
Weight: 234
40 Yrd Dash: 4.60
20 Yrd Dash: 2.64
10 Yrd Dash: 1.67
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 25
Vertical Jump: 36
Broad Jump: 10'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.20


Jacobs:

Height: 6011
Weight: 246
40 Yrd Dash: 4.48
20 Yrd Dash: 2.61
10 Yrd Dash: 1.58
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 26
Vertical Jump: 35
Broad Jump: 10'02"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.44
3-Cone Drill: 7.14


Obviously you can't get a full picture from a highlight reel, but I like his versatility to play with physicality against the run, rush the passer, and also to drop successfully in coverage. I've seen him projected anywhere from the 4th to the 6th. I'd take him with 136, since I don't think he'd be available at 210, or whenever we pick again. Could be a nice bargain value vs spending a 1st or 2nd on LVE or Evans (assuming they're available), or Jefferson, who is a little smaller and doesn't play off blocks as well as Jacobs.



I was just thinking yesterday that I should inquire as to what folks thought of Jacobs and his potential value as a mid-round pick.

In addition to the other measurables, his 33-1/2" arm length (v. Roberts' 30-7/8") seems like another positive.
 
This player looks interesting, a converted safety.

Oren Burks, Vandy, 6'3, 233, 4.59
- 3 year starter in SEC, moved from Safety to LB
- elite measurables, 4.59 40, 39.5 vertical, 6.82 three cone
- team captain

May not be big enough to be a thumper against the run but has attributes to be effective in nickel / dime (the new base).

Some profiles
NFL Draft & Combine Profile - OREN BURKS | NFL.com

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

Good eye. I profiled his coverage ability in my thread gif repository. Vanderbilt has connections to our coaching staff, and they played Burks in the Star position, so he would be able to pick up a similar role in our big nickel. He's been my projected pick for a mid round guy for a while, but now I'm seeing his stock rise out of my grade range after a strong Combine.
 
I think that Shaq Griffin would be a great pick for ILB for this team..
 
I think that Shaq Griffin would be a great pick for ILB for this team..

I see him more as a safety/LB hybrid - Jordan Richards’ replacement. Although I would definitely use him as a blitzer more.
 
Getting very interested in Fred Warner, particularly if he’s there late 2nd. Not yet convinced at 43 but persuadable. Need to watch more. Worth noting he’s a team captain.

 
Getting very interested in Fred Warner, particularly if he’s there late 2nd. Not yet convinced at 43 but persuadable. Need to watch more. Worth noting he’s a team captain.



Saw a Su’a Cravens comp for Warner and we remember the interest the Pats showed in him. And it’s not like BB is averse to BYU linebackers.

Something like this perhaps?

1. Mike McGlinchey
1. Dallas Goedert/Hayden Hurst
2. Justin Reid (if he’s there)
2. Fred Warner
3. Lauletta/Ejiofor
 
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Getting very interested in Fred Warner, particularly if he’s there late 2nd. Not yet convinced at 43 but persuadable. Need to watch more. Worth noting he’s a team captain.



I keep flip-flopping on Warner. There are times when he looks like the good version of Jamie Collins. There are also times when he just inexplicably shys away from contact or makes really weak attempts at tackles. I don't get it, because there's plenty of tape out there of him stacking and shedding, but I just can't get the images out of my head of him whiffing on tackles. I promised a series of video clips about it before, so I'll get on that today, work permitting.

EDIT: I don't know if I can do this after all. I made the mistake of starting off with his Wisconsin tape, and he's blocked out of the action by WRs, TEs, and FBs all day long. He has some nice plays sprinkled in, but it's just sad to watch for the most part. I can forgive a pulling guard, but when a WR can stonewall him, it's just frustrating. Worse is his body language. If the play goes away from him, he immediately pulls up on the field. I'm probably irrational about this, but I just don't like watching his tape. I have more enjoyable things to do today, like fill out tax information for my new job, or cut up raw chicken for dinner, or shovel the driveway when it stops snowing later (yes, I know it's April . . . tell that to the weather). You know, fun stuff. :p
 
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EDIT: I don't know if I can do this after all. I made the mistake of starting off with his Wisconsin tape, and he's blocked out of the action by WRs, TEs, and FBs all day long. He has some nice plays sprinkled in, but it's just sad to watch for the most part. I can forgive a pulling guard, but when a WR can stonewall him, it's just frustrating. Worse is his body language. If the play goes away from him, he immediately pulls up on the field. I'm probably irrational about this, but I just don't like watching his tape. I have more enjoyable things to do today, like fill out tax information for my new job, or cut up raw chicken for dinner, or shovel the driveway when it stops snowing later (yes, I know it's April . . . tell that to the weather). You know, fun stuff.

Thanks for doing the research. If you're getting frustrated by seeing that, imagine what Belichick would think? Can't imagine BB wanting to coach someone like that. Of course, watch the Patriots wind up selecting him after all! :)
 
Thanks for doing the research. If you're getting frustrated by seeing that, imagine what Belichick would think? Can't imagine BB wanting to coach someone like that. Of course, watch the Patriots wind up selecting him after all! :)

Right? They'll probably take him and he'll develop into a super star. I'll just look overly critical. Ah well. So it goes.
 


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