2022 OL

[upstater1]

If you want to see the craziness of putting together a line in the NFL, read this thread from day 1. There are accusations here about not going after FA at the position, and yet 3 of the most prominent tackles available have been huge busts for their new teams (Orland B Jr, Lael Collins, etc.).

The most important thing for a line is having a functional offense overall. This isn't a chicken and egg type question. If you're sloppy and have no identity, the line will look awful. Being able to dictate on offense suddenly improves all the OL numbers as the QB becomes confident, decisive, gets the ball out on time, makes the right drop in the pocket.

It all starts at the top. While Wynn and Trent Brown are not long for this team, the bad play and bad results are more the problem of Patricia. It won't improve by simply bringing in new players, especially since the draft is going to be the place to find new tackles, rather than FA.

 

[captain stone]

If you want to see the craziness of putting together a line in the NFL, read this thread from day 1. There are accusations here about not going after FA at the position, and yet 3 of the most prominent tackles available have been huge busts for their new teams (Orland B Jr, Lael Collins, etc.).

The most important thing for a line is having a functional offense overall. This isn't a chicken and egg type question. If you're sloppy and have no identity, the line will look awful. Being able to dictate on offense suddenly improves all the OL numbers as the QB becomes confident, decisive, gets the ball out on time, makes the right drop in the pocket.

It all starts at the top. While Wynn and Trent Brown are not long for this team, the bad play and bad results are more the problem of Patricia. It won't improve by simply bringing in new players, especially since the draft is going to be the place to find new tackles, rather than FA.

Phatt Matt won't be the play-caller next season; the Krafts simply will not tolerate it, nor should they.

Maybe - MAYBE - he can eventually become a competent OL coach if that is ALL he is tasked to do... That was his position in college, and that was his job his first couple of years here too IIRC...

And I think you have the chicken/egg thing wrong, because without at least a functional, professional OL there is no way that a QB such as Corky will ever succeed here or anywhere else.

Yes Brady made his OL look better than it probably ever really was; but dam this OL isn't in the same Area Code of quality as those ones.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Brown blew it too.

How is that? Brown is blocking to form a pocket. If he can push the rusher up field around the back of the QB that is a success. I think you are too picky. Sure it would be great to have Joe Thomas there so that the rusher is completely stone walled, but that can not happen all the time. Mac back pedaled too much because someone else blew their assignment. Once a play breaks down everyone looks silly, except Joe Thomas types.

 

[captain stone]

How is that? Brown is blocking to form a pocket. If he can push the rusher up field around the back of the QB that is a success. I think you are too picky. Sure it would be great to have Joe Thomas there so that the rusher is completely stone walled, but that can not happen all the time. Mac back pedaled too much because someone else blew their assignment. Once a play breaks down everyone looks silly, except Joe Thomas types.

Except that Brown didn't push his blocker up-field... His ass-ignment blew right past him, as in like Immediately.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

If you want to see the craziness of putting together a line in the NFL, read this thread from day 1. There are accusations here about not going after FA at the position, and yet 3 of the most prominent tackles available have been huge busts for their new teams (Orland B Jr, Lael Collins, etc.).

The most important thing for a line is having a functional offense overall. This isn't a chicken and egg type question. If you're sloppy and have no identity, the line will look awful. Being able to dictate on offense suddenly improves all the OL numbers as the QB becomes confident, decisive, gets the ball out on time, makes the right drop in the pocket.

It all starts at the top. While Wynn and Trent Brown are not long for this team, the bad play and bad results are more the problem of Patricia. It won't improve by simply bringing in new players, especially since the draft is going to be the place to find new tackles, rather than FA.

And I think you have the chicken/egg thing wrong, because without at least a functional, professional OL there is no way that a QB such as Corky will ever succeed here or anywhere else.

Yes Brady made his OL look better than it probably ever really was; but dam this OL isn't in the same Area Code of quality as those ones.

The chicken or the egg. Classic discussion.

I agree with both of you. Clearly FA for offensive tackles is never good because teams never let a good one go. So good tackles have to come from the draft, and that is why the Captain is always pounding the table to draft tackles - I agree with the Captain on this, although he could say it in a nicer way. But we have coaches for a reason, to help the players get better, so with a poor coach things do not work out well. As previously stated, I think the two guard positions and center are OK for a few years, but the tackles are a mess. I think we have to take two tackles in the top 3 rounds in the draft - I am not sure what else to do - luckily we have 4 picks in the first 3 rounds (BB destroyed Carolina on that trade).

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Except that Brown didn't push his blocker up-field... His ass-ignment blew right past him, as in like Immediately.

Yes, but only because Mac was 10+ steps deep. It should be a 5 or 7 step drop, and Brown is in position to push the rusher behind a 7 step drop, but when Mac dropped back over 10 yards, the right defensive end didn't even try to "turn the corner", there was no need to. Defensive ends typically have to bend to turn the corner and get to the QB because the tackles drop back and stop to block the path to the QB. If the QB drops back over 10 yards without the left tackle knowing, the left tackle stops to form the pocket but the QB is not in the pocket. How is T Brown supposed to know that Mac is 10 yards back when his back is to Mac? T Brown can not see that Mac has dropped back 10+ yards, but the D end can see that, so the D end punches Brown's upfield shoulder and blows by him.

This is my concern with Mac. I am not sure if he will develop a pocket presence or not. Mac will drop back too far, spin the wrong way, not step up properly in the pocket, and lose his foot placement while moving in the pocket. None of that is on the OL. I am not sure if Mac can learn that or not. I do not have the experience in football to know that. Mac scans the field (even though PatsFans commonly says he doesn't - every QB misses receivers), Mac is very smart and diagnoses the defense, and Mac is very accurate, all good things. But Mac seems to lose his discipline with even the smallest amount of pressure. I am sure BB sees and knows that - BB is commonly talking to Mac to get his head back in the game.

 

[upstater1]

Phatt Matt won't be the play-caller next season; the Krafts simply will not tolerate it, nor should they.

Maybe - MAYBE - he can eventually become a competent OL coach if that is ALL he is tasked to do... That was his position in college, and that was his job his first couple of years here too IIRC...

And I think you have the chicken/egg thing wrong, because without at least a functional, professional OL there is no way that a QB such as Corky will ever succeed here or anywhere else.

Yes Brady made his OL look better than it probably ever really was; but dam this OL isn't in the same Area Code of quality as those ones.

My main point is really it's not going to come down to new players -- even though we need new players. And it certainly won't come down to FA-- unless the Patriots see something in some unheralded tackle out there somewhere, which is highly doubtful that the player's own team won't realize what they have. The only tackles available are those who are too expensive, and I'd stay away from those given the premium we've seen in the draft (6 tackles taken before our pick last year).

 

[State]

From what I can see, [Trent Brown] is someone who needs the right kind of intensive coaching -- and responds to it. As Dante said "all done with love".

Too bad he doesn't seem to be getting it.

Yes. I wonder why he isn’t getting it.

 

[State]

If one of the tackle spots is dubious, there are workarounds like having a TE or RB chip block.

But if both spots are bad, then the offense is limited. Runs and quick passes and screens—exactly what is seen now.

 

[n6249c]

Yes. I wonder why he isn’t getting it.

Thought this might show there’s more than not getting coaching affecting Brown.

Trent Brown claims he dropped 12 pounds with multiple-week illness

 

[Wozzy]

The OLine gave up 1 sack last week to Zach Allen… apparently he’s pretty good.

The RB’s averaged 6.5 yards per rush for 104 yards…

Show me the “bad” part.... beyond one false start penalty by Trent?

Seems the O-Line is the only unit on this team who isn't affected by bad coaching and scheme.... odd?

 

[venecol]

 

[Wozzy]

This ^ is a satire account.

 

[patfanken]

I am not sure that is on Trent Brown. Mac's drop is way too deep because of the guy coming off the right, not left, edge. Not sure what went wrong there, but I think that was on Mac or a receiver. I believe the play design is to allow the free runner and release the ball quickly (like a screen).

there WAS no place for Jones to step up since NO ONE blocked #55 at all. If mac had stepped up the only difference would have been the loss would have been shorter, though the impact would have been even worse

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

there WAS no place for Jones to step up since NO ONE blocked #55 at all. If mac had stepped up the only difference would have been the loss would have been shorter, though the impact would have been even worse

Agreed, but the free runner was obvious before the ball was even snapped. He should not have surprised Mac and it appears as though Mac was not surprised because he could have instantly thrown the ball at the feet of the RB, which he chose not to do. So backing up and releasing the ball with a free runner appears to be what was planned. If that was not the plan, why didn't Mac simply throw the ball into the ground?

What went wrong I do not know, but Mac kept backing up instead of getting rid of the ball, and ended up backing into a sack. I assume he held the ball too long because he is young and was hoping Stevenson would turn around. I assume Stevenson was the one who erred as he should have quickly turned around. I assume Henry and Myers were running a cross and out respectively to clear away defenders for Stevenson to run between.

What do you think happened?

 

[patfanken]

Agreed, but the free runner was obvious before the ball was even snapped. He should not have surprised Mac and it appears as though Mac was not surprised because he could have instantly thrown the ball at the feet of the RB, which he chose not to do. So backing up and releasing the ball with a free runner appears to be what was planned. If that was not the plan, why didn't Mac simply throw the ball into the ground?

What went wrong I do not know, but Mac kept backing up instead of getting rid of the ball, and ended up backing into a sack. I assume he held the ball too long because he is young and was hoping Stevenson would turn around. I assume Stevenson was the one who erred as he should have quickly turned around. I assume Henry and Myers were running a cross and out respectively to clear away defenders for Stevenson to run between.

What do you think happened?

I'm not sure about WHY the play blew up so badly or why #85 was left alone, but as to the issue of should Mac have just stepped up, I contend that #85 made that an impossibility.

Brown was beaten to the outside by any interpretation. If #85 had been blocked by ANYONE, stepping up would have helped extend the play. IIRC there were several times in that game where Mac DID step up and get passes off.

If I were to criticize the coaching in this instance it would be to ask why #85 wasn't accounted for. Easy to blame it on the coaching, BUT maybe he was and it was a player who didn't meet his responsibilities. That's the problem we don't know ENOUGH as fans to easily place the blame.

Now when I coached and a player made a mental error, I usually blamed myself for not getting the player prepared well enough. That is an instinct all coach have. We get pissed at the player THEN at ourselves. What can we be doing better to make those kids mentally tougher. Are we too complex? Should we simplify and sacrifice scheme for execution. These are the things that I'm sure are going through the minds of coaches. But these players are PROS. This is their job and they get paid a ton NOT to be offside, or misalign. Frankly I'm a lot less concerned when a player just gets beaten, because that is going to happen to EVERYONE, than when they make mental errors and the Pats are just making too many mental errors for my taste.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I'm not sure about WHY the play blew up so badly or why #85 was left alone, but as to the issue of should Mac have just stepped up, I contend that #85 made that an impossibility.

No-one ever said Mac should have stepped up. Not sure what your getting at.

Brown was beaten to the outside by any interpretation. If #85 had been blocked by ANYONE, stepping up would have helped extend the play. IIRC there were several times in that game where Mac DID step up and get passes off.

If I were to criticize the coaching in this instance it would be to ask why #85 wasn't accounted for. Easy to blame it on the coaching, BUT maybe he was and it was a player who didn't meet his responsibilities. That's the problem we don't know ENOUGH as fans to easily place the blame.

Maybe #85 was not suppose to be accounted for. Like on a screen play the ball can be thrown quickly before the DE gets to the QB. The DE is unaccounted for so he runs himself out of the play when Mac releases quickly.

Now when I coached and a player made a mental error, I usually blamed myself for not getting the player prepared well enough. That is an instinct all coach have. We get pissed at the player THEN at ourselves. What can we be doing better to make those kids mentally tougher. Are we too complex? Should we simplify and sacrifice scheme for execution. These are the things that I'm sure are going through the minds of coaches. But these players are PROS. This is their job and they get paid a ton NOT to be offside, or misalign. Frankly I'm a lot less concerned when a player just gets beaten, because that is going to happen to EVERYONE, than when they make mental errors and the Pats are just making too many mental errors for my taste.

 

[Wozzy]

Mac was sacked once against Arizona... once. And it was on an all out blitz by the defense.

Almost the entire first half the offense went four wide with little TE blocking help, if there was a TE in there he was usually running a route. Go watch the highlights again.

On Mac's interception he held the ball 5 seconds before it was tipped as he threw. It was a five man blitz with Buddha Baker blitzing on the outside, but it was picked up pretty well. Mac had Thornton wide open running up the seam on the right side at the 3 second mark, he had Marcus Jones running a crossing route all alone just inside the sticks immediately after that... Mac was locked in on Bourne or Agholor (his outside WR) and never looked off him. That tipped interception was on Mac, he was a statue with multiple guys wide open.



The offensive line is the whipping boy for Mac's poor play and gets absolutely none of the leeway for "bad coaching," like the rest of the offense does. A large percentage of sacks Mac has taken this season have been the result of holding on too long and taking the sack rather than throwing an errant ball for a pick... something I'm sure his coaches drilled into his head after he returned from injury and after seeing Zappe play near flawlessly as a starter.

They started this season throwing the ball downfield... Mac led the entire NFL in interceptions... so they stopped.

He averaged over 8 yards per attempt in those first three games, since he returned from injury he's averaged 6.9 yards per attempt and only turned it over once before last week's game. Zappe averaged 9 yards per attempt in two starts and was sacked once per game.

Since Mac's return they've been trying to get him to play more like Zappe. Mac's playing better now, it's still not great. The defense really helped him out last week.

 

[captain stone]

Mac was sacked once against Arizona... once. And it was on an all out blitz by the defense.

Almost the entire first half the offense went four wide with little TE blocking help, if there was a TE in there he was usually running a route. Go watch the highlights again.

On Mac's interception he held the ball 5 seconds before it was tipped as he threw. It was a five man blitz with Buddha Baker blitzing on the outside, but it was picked up pretty well. Mac had Thornton wide open running up the seam on the right side at the 3 second mark, he had Marcus Jones running a crossing route all alone just inside the sticks immediately after that... Mac was locked in on Bourne or Agholor (his outside WR) and never looked off him. That tipped interception was on Mac, he was a statue with multiple guys wide open.



The offensive line is the whipping boy for Mac's poor play and gets absolutely none of the leeway for "bad coaching," like the rest of the offense does. A large percentage of sacks Mac has taken this season have been the result of holding on too long and taking the sack rather than throwing an errant ball for a pick... something I'm sure his coaches drilled into his head after he returned from injury and after seeing Zappe play near flawlessly as a starter.

They started this season throwing the ball downfield... Mac led the entire NFL in interceptions... so they stopped.

He averaged over 8 yards per attempt in those first three games, since he returned from injury he's averaged 6.9 yards per attempt and only turned it over once before last week's game. Zappe averaged 9 yards per attempt in two starts and was sacked once per game.

Since Mac's return they've been trying to get him to play more like Zappe. Mac's playing better now, it's still not great. The defense really helped him out last week.

To be fair to Corky, it was more like slightly under 4 seconds he held the ball... But yeah he definitely should've thrown to Marcus underneath; he was already at the Line to Gain, and likely with his speed could've ran towards the sideline away from the LB for another 7-8 yards... Instead he had to make the dam tackle...

 

[PatsFan2]

Mac was sacked once against Arizona... once. And it was on an all out blitz by the defense.

Almost the entire first half the offense went four wide with little TE blocking help, if there was a TE in there he was usually running a route. Go watch the highlights again.

On Mac's interception he held the ball 5 seconds before it was tipped as he threw. It was a five man blitz with Buddha Baker blitzing on the outside, but it was picked up pretty well. Mac had Thornton wide open running up the seam on the right side at the 3 second mark, he had Marcus Jones running a crossing route all alone just inside the sticks immediately after that... Mac was locked in on Bourne or Agholor (his outside WR) and never looked off him. That tipped interception was on Mac, he was a statue with multiple guys wide open.



The offensive line is the whipping boy for Mac's poor play and gets absolutely none of the leeway for "bad coaching," like the rest of the offense does. A large percentage of sacks Mac has taken this season have been the result of holding on too long and taking the sack rather than throwing an errant ball for a pick... something I'm sure his coaches drilled into his head after he returned from injury and after seeing Zappe play near flawlessly as a starter.

They started this season throwing the ball downfield... Mac led the entire NFL in interceptions... so they stopped.

He averaged over 8 yards per attempt in those first three games, since he returned from injury he's averaged 6.9 yards per attempt and only turned it over once before last week's game. Zappe averaged 9 yards per attempt in two starts and was sacked once per game.

Since Mac's return they've been trying to get him to play more like Zappe. Mac's playing better now, it's still not great. The defense really helped him out last week.

Mac better not miss any plays like that on Sunday or it could be a long afternoon.