2017 Training Camp - Day 9 (8/5/17)

[maineman209]

So what you are saying is FBs are similar to TEs?

Not every player in the NFL who's been given the "FB" positional designation by his team fulfills the same functions/roles in his team's offense (e.g., Spencer Ware) that Develin does in the Pats' offense.

I'm not generalizing about players who have the "FB" designation. I'm talking specifically about Develin and his function in the Pats' offense.

Again, this is only important in terms of thinking about roster spots on the final 53.

"Do the Pats go with 3 TEs or four?"

The fact that Develin (the player, NOT "the FB") can, and often has, functioned as a move-TE in the Pats offense, and the fact that Fleming has considerable experience as a 3rd, in-line blocking TE, are things that need to be taken into consideration when attempting to answer that question.

Lengel is a big, in-line blocking TE who can also run routes and catch a bit (and maybe not as well as Develin). O'Shaughnessy is likely a high-value special teamer who, like pretty much the rest of the TE candidates in Camp, is more the size of a move-TE. So, When considering Develin as a "capable, part-time TE3", which one provides the most value in terms of redundancy (backup) while saving a roster spot somewhere else?

And yet I still see folks including Develin as part of the RB group when it comes to the roster spot "numbers game" mainly because of his positional designation and the fact that he lines up in the backfield.

 

[Wheelman]

After Gronk went out last season, Develin saw twice as many targets as Lengel did out of 2TE sets.

Interesting, semi-related factoid: Develin and Allen are the same height and weight.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Develin IS a TE3 by traditional positional definitions, just that he often functions as one in the Pats offense. It's only important when thinking about roster spots and who fills what roles.

Am I right that you're lumping all the blockers who tradionally line up anywhere inside the tackle box but also run routes as tight ends? That's fair enough.

I just break it down even further. If you line up mostly in the backfield, you're a fullback. If you line up mostly at the end of the line, you're a tight end. Regardless of whatever versatility they may have.

I've seen the Clots line up Allen in the fullback position, I think McDaniels will use that versatility when they decide to put a corner/safety on Allen.

Thinking about it a little more, TE3 or RB3, WR4, etc come down to special teams ability. I wonder about last season. It was Jonathan Jones vs Kamu Grugier-Hill for an ST spot. Or was it Crevon Leblanc vs Elandon Roberts? I wonder how BB went about that. Maybe Jones was more comparable to Leblanc on D than KGH was to Roberts so they went with Jones and Roberts?

Edit: Or was it Jones+Roberts vs Leblanc+KGH?

 

[long distance]

Am I right that you're lumping all the blockers who tradionally line up anywhere inside the tackle box but also run routes as tight ends? That's fair enough.

I just break it down even further. If you line up mostly in the backfield, you're a fullback. If you line up mostly at the end of the line, you're a tight end. Regardless of whatever versatility they may have.

I've seen the Clots line up Allen in the fullback position, I think McDaniels will use that versatility when they decide to put a corner/safety on Allen.

Thinking about it a little more, TE3 or RB3, WR4, etc come down to special teams ability. I wonder about last season. It was Jonathan Jones vs Kamu Grugier-Hill for an ST spot. Or was it Crevon Leblanc vs Elandon Roberts? I wonder how BB went about that. Maybe Jones was more comparable to Leblanc on D than KGH was to Roberts so they went with Jones and Roberts?

great post.

 

[Tony2046]

Am I right that you're lumping all the blockers who tradionally line up anywhere inside the tackle box but also run routes as tight ends? That's fair enough.

I just break it down even further. If you line up mostly in the backfield, you're a fullback. If you line up mostly at the end of the line, you're a tight end. Regardless of whatever versatility they may have.

I've seen the Clots line up Allen in the fullback position, I think McDaniels will use that versatility when they decide to put a corner/safety on Allen.

Thinking about it a little more, TE3 or RB3, WR4, etc come down to special teams ability. I wonder about last season. It was Jonathan Jones vs Kamu Grugier-Hill for an ST spot. Or was it Crevon Leblanc vs Elandon Roberts? I wonder how BB went about that. Maybe Jones was more comparable to Leblanc on D than KGH was to Roberts so they went with Jones and Roberts?

Yeah it's really splitting hairs in regards to Devlin. He is designated as a FB on the roster sheet but we know BB considers him more as a FB/TE hybrid. He definitely has more responsibilities than a traditional NFL FB. imo

 

[long distance]

officially worried about Jags joining Pats on Monday..

 

[RobertWeathers]

Develin already has been essentially a TE, based on what he does on the field.

As an in-line TE? I don't think so.

 

[long distance]

Interesting bit from Perillo - BB on pros and cons of joint practice:

Bill Belichick explained on Friday how the work with Jacksonville affects the rest of camp since it’s difficult to continue the installation process with another team on the field.

“I’d say the biggest difference would be if we were not practicing against another team, we would continue to install things next week, so we’d continue to add things to our daily routine,” the coach said before Friday’s practice. “When you practice against another team, I think you’re better off just going out there and running what you know. So, there won’t be a lot of new installation next week for Jacksonville. We’ll run what we’ve practiced through tomorrow and try to do it that way.”

“If we weren’t practicing against them, then we would continue to add things next week. But, we also would have to commit time to getting ready for the game next week, so running scout teams and running Jacksonville’s plays against us, whereas when you practice against the team, that is the preparation. It kind of kills two birds with one stone there.”

 

[jmt57]

Question;
When do the public practices typically end?
I will be in the area Tuesday August 15

Last year it was Wednesday, August 17. It was essentially just a walk through, the day before the second preseason game.

Patriots camp: Tom Brady loses his mind over the smallest mistakes

This year the second preseason game is on a Saturday (8/19). I would think that Tuesday 8/15 would be a good day to plan on heading over to Foxboro.

 

[long distance]

observational leftovers..


-- There was a lot of work on the running game with Brandon Bolden, LeShun Daniels, Dion Lewis and James White received plenty of carries, particularly Bolden and Lewis. On one carry Bolden bounced one outside to the right but kept the ball in his left (inside) hand. This was reminiscent of a carry he had last year in the preseason game against Chicago when did the same thing near the goal line. With the ball inside he was stripped inside the 5 and the Bears wound up recovering. Perhaps Bolden is only comfortable running with the ball in his left hand but it seems to be a dangerous habit.

-- D Allen and Rob Gronkowski ran dual vertical routes outside of the right hash (the Pats had some success with these routes a year ago when Gronkowski and Martellus Bennett were healthy). Allen beat the coverage and hauled in another contested grab.

-- Eric Rowe got the majority of reps as the third corner. At times the Patriots sub package featured three corners – Rowe, Butler and Stephon Gilmore – as well as three safeties with Devin McCourty, Patrick Chung and Harmon. Jonathan Jones continues to make plays on the defensive side–although he dropped a ball on a kick-off return.
___

-- after practice sightings: O-line coach Dante Scarnecchia having a long talk with lineman Tony Garcia out of Troy … QB Jacoby Brissett throwing to WR Austin Carr and CB Stephon Gilmore … Jimmy G working on his throwing … Tom Brady doing band work and then signing autographs for some kids in the Patriots Charitable Foundation tent … Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett also signing … rookie DBs Kenny Moore II (Valdosta State) and Will Likely (Maryland) working on their coverage.

 

[The Gr8est]

observational leftovers..


-- There was a lot of work on the running game with Brandon Bolden, LeShun Daniels, Dion Lewis and James White received plenty of carries, particularly Bolden and Lewis. On one carry Bolden bounced one outside to the right but kept the ball in his left (inside) hand. This was reminiscent of a carry he had last year in the preseason game against Chicago when did the same thing near the goal line. With the ball inside he was stripped inside the 5 and the Bears wound up recovering. Perhaps Bolden is only comfortable running with the ball in his left hand but it seems to be a dangerous habit.

-- D Allen and Rob Gronkowski ran dual vertical routes outside of the right hash (the Pats had some success with these routes a year ago when Gronkowski and Martellus Bennett were healthy). Allen beat the coverage and hauled in another contested grab.

-- Eric Rowe got the majority of reps as the third corner. At times the Patriots sub package featured three corners – Rowe, Butler and Stephon Gilmore – as well as three safeties with Devin McCourty, Patrick Chung and Harmon. Jonathan Jones continues to make plays on the defensive side–although he dropped a ball on a kick-off return.
___

-- after practice sightings: O-line coach Dante Scarnecchia having a long talk with lineman Tony Garcia out of Troy … QB Jacoby Brissett throwing to WR Austin Carr and CB Stephon Gilmore … Jimmy G working on his throwing … Tom Brady doing band work and then signing autographs for some kids in the Patriots Charitable Foundation tent … Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett also signing … rookie DBs Kenny Moore II (Valdosta State) and Will Likely (Maryland) working on their coverage.

So, based on the work Rowe has been getting it is looking more likely the Pats will end up losing a 3rd round pick rather than a 4th.

And while that bothers me a bit, I expect BB won't give it a 2nd thought.

 

[bbobbo]

The fact that Develin (the player, NOT "the FB") can, and often has, functioned as a move-TE in the Pats offense, and the fact that Fleming has considerable experience as a 3rd, in-line blocking TE, are things that need to be taken into consideration when attempting to answer that question.

Lengel is a big, in-line blocking TE who can also run routes and catch a bit (and maybe not as well as Develin). O'Shaughnessy is likely a high-value special teamer who, like pretty much the rest of the TE candidates in Camp, is more the size of a move-TE. So, When considering Develin as a "capable, part-time TE3", which one provides the most value in terms of redundancy (backup) while saving a roster spot somewhere else?

And yet I still see folks including Develin as part of the RB group when it comes to the roster spot "numbers game" mainly because of his positional designation and the fact that he lines up in the backfield.

only problem with develin as a move tight end is that he's very slow--he ran a 5.0 40. linebackers aren't going to have too much problem covering him. dwayne allen is pretty slow too, 4.85. even matt lengel, who outweighs him by 20 lbs and is 4 inches taller, is faster at 4.9.

by comparison, gronk and o'shaughnessey both run 4.68, jacob hollister runs a 4.64.
.

 

[BelichickFan]

So, based on the work Rowe has been getting it is looking more likely the Pats will end up losing a 3rd round pick rather than a 4th.

Who cares about that. The bigger thing is that if Rowe keeps looking good, he and Gilmore will be a good starting duo in 2018 with Butler presumably gone.

 

[long distance]

So, based on the work Rowe has been getting it is looking more likely the Pats will end up losing a 3rd round pick rather than a 4th.

And while that bothers me a bit, I expect BB won't give it a 2nd thought.

Not necessarily. 50% in this secondary is not easy to accumulate. If all goes healthy you have Gilmore, McCourty, Chung and Butler as starters and going by last year they will take close to 100%. Then you have at least 3 guys competing for nickel D (Harmon, Rowe, JJ) and another two for dime (Richards, Ebner). Cyrus is getting more looks there as well and improving etc.

So some of the equation will depend on D looks and matchups. Rowe was a clear #3 CB last year and saw only 43%. This year competition is much stronger.

2016 DB snap count %:

McCourty . 98%
Butler ....... 97%
Chung ....... 96%
Ryan ......... 86%

Harmon .... 49%
Rowe ........ 43%
Coleman ... 22%
Cyrus ........ 14%
JJ .............. 6%

Lets say Pats will play 70% in nickel. Rowe would need to grab some 70% of those snaps in competition w Harmon and the rest. They can play less this yr looking at the schedule that looks to bring heavier running game oppositions.

So if secondary stays healthy your 3rd round pick might be safe. Then again its not a significant difference anyway. This year for Pats f.e. it was the difference between Rivers and Wise..

 

[Wheelman]

So if secondary stays healthy your 3rd round pick might be safe. Then again its not a significant difference anyway. This year for Pats f.e. it was the difference between Rivers and Wise..

But don't forget this draft was deep. Whatever draft we owe them a pick may not be.

 

[long distance]

But don't forget this draft was deep. Whatever draft we owe them a pick may not be.

Its next year's pick and the 2018 class has a lot of similar quality players Day2/early Day3 by the current look. Maybe not too deep in elite but wide sea of solid prospects in the middle, depending on underclassmen..

In any case the 3rd does of course have bigger trading value..

 

[maineman209]

Not necessarily. 50% in this secondary is not easy to accumulate. If all goes healthy you have Gilmore, McCourty, Chung and Butler as starters and going by last year they will take close to 100%. Then you have at least 3 guys competing for nickel D (Harmon, Rowe, JJ) and another two for dime (Richards, Ebner). Cyrus is getting more looks there as well and improving etc.

So some of the equation will depend on D looks and matchups. Rowe was a clear #3 CB last year and saw only 43%. This year competition is much stronger.

2016 DB snap count %:

McCourty . 98%
Butler ....... 97%
Chung ....... 96%
Ryan ......... 86%

Harmon .... 49%
Rowe ........ 43%
Coleman ... 22%
Cyrus ........ 14%
JJ .............. 6%

Lets say Pats will play 70% in nickel. Rowe would need to grab some 70% of those snaps in competition w Harmon and the rest. They can play less this yr looking at the schedule that looks to bring heavier running game oppositions.

So if secondary stays healthy your 3rd round pick might be safe. Then again its not a significant difference anyway. This year for Pats f.e. it was the difference between Rivers and Wise..

OTOH, Rowe accumulated 43% of the total defensive snaps for the 2016 season while appearing in only 9 games. He averaged about 80% of the defensive snaps in the games he was active.

 

[long distance]

OTOH, Rowe accumulated 43% of the total defensive snaps for the 2016 season while appearing in only 9 games. He averaged about 80% of the defensive snaps in the games he was active.

Good point.
But you must also take in consideration two things:

1. The LB snap count went considerably down after Collins was traded away. Pats had around 250% LB snaps when Collins was playing and that fell to around 200% after that. DB snap count went up accordingly. That was about the time when Rowe joined the party.

Pats added Harris and Langi, Freeny coming back from inj, KVN first full season, Roberts sophomore etc . so LB snap count might go up again, probably also depending on Hightower's health and management.

2. Ryan left snaps on the filed that Gilmore won't. And i don't think its likely Butler will see any less health permitting..

 

[Love The Drake]

Reports were Freeny looked slooooow if that's the case I don't see a spot for him.

 

[maineman209]

Am I right that you're lumping all the blockers who tradionally line up anywhere inside the tackle box but also run routes as tight ends?

Not really.

Re-reading my previous posts, I haven't been as clear as I could have been. What I'm trying to do is to take a step away from positional designations and away from generalizing about them.

During Camp, when I'm thinking about how I would assemble an optimal 53-man roster, I just find that focusing on the positional designations of the candidates and the traditional definitions thereof, limits my perspective. Instead, I try to look at what the specific individual has done or might be able to do to fulfill a required function/role on various types of plays.

In the case of Develin, he can (and has, I believe) fulfilled the role of a 3rd in-line TE, either before the snap or during a play's progress. I don't care one way or the other whether or not that makes him a "TE" in the nominal sense. I only care that he has that capability, and that how Develin having that capability might help determine which individual Camp candidate would be an optimal addition.

For example, O'Shaughnessy (according to some reports) is a better receiver than blocker. Perhaps, in the grand scheme of things, Develin compensates for O'Shaughnessy's weakness. Then, the fact that O'Shaughnessy is also a high-value special teamer, perhaps makes Bolden expendable and, thus, makes room for O'Shaughnessy to be active every game.

The only thing I don't like about that possible scenario is that I'm already tired of typing "O'Shaughnessy".

 

[maineman209]

Good point.
But you must also take in consideration two things:

1. The LB snap count went considerably down after Collins was traded away. Pats had around 250% LB snaps when Collins was playing and that fell to around 200% after that. DB snap count went up accordingly. That was about the time when Rowe joined the party.

Pats added Harris and Langi, Freeny coming back from inj, KVN first full season, Roberts sophomore etc . so LB snap count might go up again, probably also depending on Hightower's health and management.

2. Ryan left snaps on the filed that Gilmore won't. And i don't think its likely Butler will see any less health permitting..

For me, the main thing is that there are a lot of moving parts, and that the 2017 defensive schemes will sometimes (often?) have significant differences form 2016, partly due to roster differences and also due to the fact that the Pats play different opponents this season, and the desire to move away from what this season's opponents may think they have learned from watching the Pats' 2016 tape.

There are a lot of questions to which we won't have answers until very late in the season. For instance, Ryan was the Pats' leading tackler in 2016 - who makes those tackles this season? Hightower dropped down to DE a fair amount in 2016 - is that percentage affected by the additions of Langi, Harris, etc.? Does it increase or decrease? If LB coverage skills improve, does that cut into Rowe's potential snap count, or Chung's?