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re contents of the OP, I do not share the trepidation about the DL. I think Ealy and Guy will turn out to be more of Bill's usual recognition of players who will step up if given the chance. We've seen it so often, Hicks, Ayers, many others. And I think Flowers and Valentine and Brown are better that that concern gives them credit for being.

Complementing the quality of the DL is the quality of opponents they will be going against. Ken claimed that the other three AFCE DLs are at least as good as, or perhaps better than, the Patriots' DL. But how good are their OLs in comparison? Will the Pats have an edge in line play because their OL is better even if the opponent's DL is also talented? Off the top of my head I'm not thinking there is a better first-string OL in the AFCE, so I think the Pats will have an advantage in the trenches when the scales are balanced. Also, can't forget the secret weapon: Dante. OTOH depth on the OL is my biggest concern, agree with Ken on that.

I am also not so worried about the travel binge. They'll probably stay out west between the Denver and Oakland games, then they are home before the next three are short hops. Third one of those will be the killer, Pittsburgh on a short week after MNF in Miami will be a challenge. Miami may also be a tough game, South Florida in late November isn't ideal football weather. Won't be surprised if they go 4-1 on those road games, possibly 3-2 on the pessimistic side but realistically I don't think Miami has the talent to beat them on MNF. We shall see.
 
ken

The Pats system and coaching really is that much better than the rest of the league.
I always believe that the Pats go into every game with a better game plan their opposition. But it would be a mistake to believe that every other team is coached by idiots who don't know the game. On occasion that's true, but Jeff Fisher is gone. ;) Most of the time, like the game itself, the advantage is narrow.

But as Bill has said on many occasions, "Players win games, coaches lose them".

The Pats win so consistently because they are usually better prepared for situational football and they have over the years developed a semantics (Language) system that allows them to have completely different game plans for every week on both offense and defense. Most teams don't have the continuity to do that.
 
Excellent job as usual PFK and congrats on the posting milestone. Health, that is what I see as this team's most important ingredient to SB winning success.
 
JG being on the team does not mean this is Brady's last year. It just means JG is still on the team.

If Brady plays at an elite level again this year why would they cut him for an unproven backup. That would potentially cost them a shot at another championship run.

OTOH, if Brady gets injured or hits his ever mediot anticipated "Cliff" you potentially have the best back up to put in the game.

JG is simply a great insurance policy.
All that is true......for this year. If what is rumored about the Cleveland deal is true, the cost of that insurance was likely 3 quality high end prospects. That, my friend, is some premium insurance, and completely goes against everything we've experienced with Bill....UNLESS it's more than just insurance
 
I'm sure I'm not the first to float this idea but the Patriots could also see more value in keeping Jimmy for 5 weeks and then trading him to some team desperate to try to stay on track for the playoffs after a major injury to their starting QB.

Looking at what the Vikings gave up I could see that they feel there's more value in holding, having him on the team for over a 1/4 of the season and then moving him for picks in a draft that we will likely need to plumb for talent moreso than this one just looking at some of the likely departures.

Just can't agree with the 'last Brady season' probability being even remotely high. I think it's under 1% unless he gets a career-ending...nevermind.
 
Way over reaction on Jimmy. He can easily be Franchised and Traded next year. A team like Arizona may have a retired Palmer, no developmental QB and win too many games to draft a highly ranked QB. Enter JG for their #1. We'd get less than this year but we would likely still get a substantial return even with a stronger QB class.

What does it buy us ?

- Top Backup in case Brady misses a few games.
- Top Backup in case Brady takes one bad hit and is out for the year.
- Future quality starter in case Brady retires after 2017. Torn ACL, bad concussion, winning another SB. All could make him do it.
- Future quality starter in case Brady quietly tells Belichick he'll play 2 more years then retire.
- Insurance on 2018 if Brady starts to decline, even if it's not visable to us the fans.

Keeping him buys TONS of insurance for 1 or even 2 years while maintaining a valuable - though less valuable than last week - trade chip.

Would I have traded him ? Yes. But going into a Super Bowl contending season it's an amazing feeling to know that if Brady gets hurt we have Jimmy. Look at the Raiders last year when Carr got hurt. And Jimmy's trade value didn't go from sky high to nothing, it just dropped some.

As I have said before I have no issue Franchising and keeping him next year, and considering this year and next to be a 2 year, $26M extension. $13M a year to protect against all kinds of miserable scenarios as Brady enters his age 40, then age 41 seasons. The NFL is littered with teams who lost top QB then took a decade or more to get another one.
I sincerely hope you are right. But I don't see the Pats being able to "Franchise and trade him" next season.

Where will the market be? Next season is shaping up to be one of the better QB drafts in a while, and 4 teams will already have QB's they took high this year. What can they get for JG when everyone knows they HAVE to trade him. Despite what some people say, the Pats aren't going to carry a $45-50MM cap charge for 2 QB's

What you say about the benefits of having JG on the roster this year is true. But that kind of insurance is very expensive if it cost the Pats 3 high end picks.
 
All that is true......for this year. If what is rumored about the Cleveland deal is true, the cost of that insurance was likely 3 quality high end prospects. That, my friend, is some premium insurance, and completely goes against everything we've experienced with Bill....UNLESS it's more than just insurance

You could be right Ken. I personally don't see it but your argument is not without merit.


Forgot to say this in my first post but congrats on the 10K. I've enjoyed your posts especially after the game. Thanks.
 
b. The interior of the OL - We were OK last season, but when the chips were down in the superbowl our running game vanished, and it wasn't just LBG's fault. There were no holes. I'd be OK with David Andrews at C, but I'd be happier with an upgrade. His physical limitations make him a liability in the run game, and an issue against certain DLmen in pass protection. More and more 4-3 teams are lining up a DT or LB right on Andrews to push the pocket.

I'm nitpicking, but I don't think most teams would run the ball much down 25 points with 17 minutes left to play.
 
LB is a huge problem imo. Hightower is a beast, I like Van Noy but his ceiling is a average starter, Roberts is an energetic thumper but gets lost in coverage, McClellin is awful in every aspect of the game save leaping PAT's which is outlawed now, Freeny is equally as atrocious as McClellin, and Ninko while still effective is getting old.

The wildcards are UDFA Harvey Langi and Trevor Bates. I hope there is a cut from another team or a trade soon because this group inspires no confidence.
 
Did you seriously say every team the patriot will face has better or at least equal talent?
Are you talking about singing and dancing talent?
No, Andy, Football talent. Go look closely at other team's top 26 plays. Would you rather have McCoy or Gillislee as your RB. Would your rather have Von Miller or Kony Ealy as your pass rusher. Often times if we bothered any more to make one on one match up comparisons like we used to do in the old days, the other team would have more pluses than us, but never at the QB position which we know is the key advantage we've had.

Now THIS year we will clearly have the best secondary of anyone we face, perhaps with the exception of Denver.

And let me emphasize that I'm talking individual talent in a sport where the sum is often greater than the individual talent. So the fact that teams might have equal or slightly better INDIVIDUAL talent doesn't intimidate me.

Hogan, Edelman, and Mitchell were part of a top 3 offense in the league. Only Edelman would be a starter on a lot teams. But that's why the sum is greater than the individual parts in football. And THAT's what makes it such an intreguing game to follow. (when Goodell and his cronies are f^cking it up)
 
I know everyone is riding high right now with the way this off season has gone, but it is important NOT to lose track of the fact that the margin of victory is still very thin in the NFL, and it doesn't take much to derail a season. ESPECIALLY when if you don't win the Superbowl the season will be a failure. So just a one game slip up can doom a season.

The fact is that the Pats will rarely line up against a team this fall whose physical talent will not be at LEAST as good as their's. And as much as we'd like to think the Pat's system and coaching is THAT much better than anyone else's, we'd best remember that they are paying those other guys a LOT of money too. So while I believe BB and his staff are the best in the league, the gap isn't as big as we'd like to think. (as we saw in the first half of the superbowl)

1 Concerns - Yes Martha, there ARE concerns.

a. The defensive line. Its solid and deeper now since the draft, but the fact remains that if we are honest, if you rated the DL's in the AFCE, ours would be ranked #4 based on Talent.
For things to go well this year a lot of things have to happen.

Malcolm Brown needs to raise the level of his play. Brown has been a solid NFL starting DT who has flashed on occasion. For the Pats DL to be successful he needs to "flash" a lot more this season.

Alan Branch - He needs to maintain the high level of play he showed last season. That isn't easy for a guy who will be 33 before the playoffs.

Vincent Valentine - He needs to make a solid 2nd year jump, especially if there is a decline in Branch's play.

Ealy and Guy have to make an impact right away. Both guys have flashed, but also have been up and down. They have to come in here and play consistently well. We all HOPE they will. We has some reason to EXPECT they will. But we don't KNOW they will. That's the concern that won't be answered until October.

b. The interior of the OL - We were OK last season, but when the chips were down in the superbowl our running game vanished, and it wasn't just LBG's fault. There were no holes. I'd be OK with David Andrews at C, but I'd be happier with an upgrade. His physical limitations make him a liability in the run game, and an issue against certain DLmen in pass protection. More and more 4-3 teams are lining up a DT or LB right on Andrews to push the pocket.

I'm sure there is a back up C on the team, but it's pretty much anyone's guess who it is. (Karras is my guess). We added 2 OT projects to a fairly stacked OT group, yet, so far, have completely ignored the interior OL depth.

Now this is kind of like the S situation. Because one one got hurt, we could see how the back ups would fare. Maybe they are happy with the current situaton, so my "concern" may be unwarranted. I hope so, but I'd feel a lot better if we signed Mangold.

c. The schedule: Looking at this schedule I can't imagine how FO's declared that the Pats had the easiest schedule this season. NFL.com just came out with their post draft rankings, and while I know it doesn't mean anything, it is interesting to note that of the top 13 teams on the list the Pats play 7 of them including #2 (Falcons) #3 (Steelers), and #4 (Raiders). That doesn't sound like a cake walk to me. (btw- the Pats were ranked #1)

Not only that - There is the issue of that 6 game stretch where they play 5 road games. This is a schedule anomoly that almost NEVER happens. I think twice in the last 20 years. And IIRC I don't think either team won more than 3 games. Think about it, that is almost 2 straight months on the road. :eek:

OK so there really are only 3 concerns, and compared to questions most teams have, they don't amount to much. I mean the DL, at worst will be OK, but will it be as good as it was last season, which ended up being OK, but not dominant. What we get from Guy, Ealy and Flowers will tell. btw- Flowers is going to have to raise HIS game as well. Teams are going to start looking for him as he will start the season as the Pats only proven pass rush threat.

2. Changes:

a. Football is ever cyclical. Alot of the new things we see from offenses like Carolina's have be taken almost directly from Single wing concepts of the 30's and 40's.

b. One of the reasons I worry about the DL is that I think the pendulum is going to start swinging back to the running game. The fact so many RB's were drafted in the first 3 rounds is a testiment to that fact. Since finding a good QB is so damned hard, teams are starting to realize that a good run game can cover a lot of QB sins (see Dallas, Titans, and even Buffalo). Also the move to smaller faster defenses who play nickel as their base make it prudent and easier to run the ball more. We can see it in our own off season planning with the additions of Burkhead and Gillislee. So watch for that change this season.

3. Still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that JG is still here. I believe that Cleveland DID offer the #12 plus more this year and next, but the Pats didn't budge. I'm OK with it, especially since I think we got a guy who can be the edge rusher I wanted with that #12 pick down the road.

But what I can't get my head around is the meaning that decision implies. They didn't turn down those draft assets simply because they wanted the best back up possible for 2017. I can only conclude that they have made the decision that JG is going to be the next QB for the NE Patriots.....period.

So it seems, there is a good probability that this will be Tom Brady's last season with the team. That is a hard concept to digest. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is most logical conclusion. I know the fashionable narrative is that they will franchise JG in 2018, but while possible, the number will just be so restrictive, that it makes no sense for the rest of the team.

I wonder what Brady is thinking? I can't imagine he doesn't see the implications of the lack of a move. I can't imagine that Brady, BB and Kraft, haven't had a disucssion about it. And I can't imagine that it won't be a huge story line by the mediots the entire 2017 season, filled with rampant speculation. Because, we KNOW the Pats and Brady are never going to directly address it.

I think this is my 10,000th post. That's a lot of crap I've written over the years. I hope some of it was at least interesting. And as usual, your comments and additions will make the thread better


1828f739d85db93e4f73538e3aad4e1f.jpg
 
Happy 10,000th post Ken! Yeah the big story is JG wasn't trade and i too think it implies Brady is possibly gone. The only way Brady stays is if BB us convinced if he lets Brady leave he is probably leaving a super bowl title on the table.

This team needs to convince him that is the case.
I can see a scenario where Brady stays for 2 years.

In that scenario, Brady anounces or lets BB know that he will retire or leave the Pats after the 2018 season. The Pats sign JG to a long term contract that is structured so that it has a relatively low cap number (say $5MM) in the first year (2018). NOW the 2018 QB cap number will be in the 25-30MM range which would be very doable.

That extra year might be just what Brady needs to fill his need for competition as his kids grow up.

OR BB might just have thought that having JG for a year was worth the 3 high end picks he might have gotten. Who knows. We'll all have to wait for the book to find out. ;)
 
LB is a huge problem imo. Hightower is a beast, I like Van Noy but his ceiling is a average starter, Roberts is an energetic thumper but gets lost in coverage, McClellin is awful in every aspect of the game save leaping PAT's which is outlawed now, Freeny is equally as atrocious as McClellin, and Ninko while still effective is getting old.

The wildcards are UDFA Harvey Langi and Trevor Bates. I hope there is a cut from another team or a trade soon because this group inspires no confidence.
You can't have all stars at every position. Van Noy and McClellin have proven to be solid pros who I suspect will be a bt better in their 2nd year in the program.

BTW- EVERY rookie is lost in coverage his first few years. Though one of the intriguing things about Langi is his 3 cone time would indicate he has the quickness to perhaps be a cover LB down the road.
 
No, Andy, Football talent. Go look closely at other team's top 26 plays. Would you rather have McCoy or Gillislee as your RB. Would your rather have Von Miller or Kony Ealy as your pass rusher. Often times if we bothered any more to make one on one match up comparisons like we used to do in the old days, the other team would have more pluses than us, but never at the QB position which we know is the key advantage we've had.

Now THIS year we will clearly have the best secondary of anyone we face, perhaps with the exception of Denver.

And let me emphasize that I'm talking individual talent in a sport where the sum is often greater than the individual talent. So the fact that teams might have equal or slightly better INDIVIDUAL talent doesn't intimidate me.

Hogan, Edelman, and Mitchell were part of a top 3 offense in the league. Only Edelman would be a starter on a lot teams. But that's why the sum is greater than the individual parts in football. And THAT's what makes it such an intreguing game to follow. (when Goodell and his cronies are f^cking it up)
You are just wrong here.

Perhaps the sum of the parts makes them better than a team or 2 with more raw talent but to say they are the least talented team in the league is just nuts.

But please go ahead and show me how the jets, browns and bears have more talent.



And by the way quarterback counts.


Not your best day ken.
 
I always believe that the Pats go into every game with a better game plan their opposition. But it would be a mistake to believe that every other team is coached by idiots who don't know the game. On occasion that's true, but Jeff Fisher is gone. ;) Most of the time, like the game itself, the advantage is narrow.

But as Bill has said on many occasions, "Players win games, coaches lose them".

The Pats win so consistently because they are usually better prepared for situational football and they have over the years developed a semantics (Language) system that allows them to have completely different game plans for every week on both offense and defense. Most teams don't have the continuity to do that.
If players win games and everyone has better players than us (and the difference in coaching is minimal) how are we the best team?
 
W-L total?
But how do we win if we have the least talent in the league?
That is the hypothesis. Every team we plays has at least as much or more talent.
 
Congrats on 10,000, Ken!!!! When I saw the post entitled "Idle Thoughts", it transported my soul to a midseason Monday after another win. :) I really enjoy and look forward to those posts, sir.

Then I actually read this post...

I know everyone is riding high right now with the way this off season has gone, but it is important NOT to lose track of the fact that the margin of victory is still very thin in the NFL, and it doesn't take much to derail a season. ESPECIALLY when if you don't win the Superbowl the season will be a failure. So just a one game slip up can doom a season.

The fact is that the Pats will rarely line up against a team this fall whose physical talent will not be at LEAST as good as their's. And as much as we'd like to think the Pat's system and coaching is THAT much better than anyone else's, we'd best remember that they are paying those other guys a LOT of money too. So while I believe BB and his staff are the best in the league, the gap isn't as big as we'd like to think. (as we saw in the first half of the superbowl)

1 Concerns - Yes Martha, there ARE concerns.

a. The defensive line. Its solid and deeper now since the draft, but the fact remains that if we are honest, if you rated the DL's in the AFCE, ours would be ranked #4 based on Talent.
For things to go well this year a lot of things have to happen.

Malcolm Brown needs to raise the level of his play. Brown has been a solid NFL starting DT who has flashed on occasion. For the Pats DL to be successful he needs to "flash" a lot more this season.

Alan Branch - He needs to maintain the high level of play he showed last season. That isn't easy for a guy who will be 33 before the playoffs.

Vincent Valentine - He needs to make a solid 2nd year jump, especially if there is a decline in Branch's play.

Ealy and Guy have to make an impact right away. Both guys have flashed, but also have been up and down. They have to come in here and play consistently well. We all HOPE they will. We has some reason to EXPECT they will. But we don't KNOW they will. That's the concern that won't be answered until October.

b. The interior of the OL - We were OK last season, but when the chips were down in the superbowl our running game vanished, and it wasn't just LBG's fault. There were no holes. I'd be OK with David Andrews at C, but I'd be happier with an upgrade. His physical limitations make him a liability in the run game, and an issue against certain DLmen in pass protection. More and more 4-3 teams are lining up a DT or LB right on Andrews to push the pocket.

I'm sure there is a back up C on the team, but it's pretty much anyone's guess who it is. (Karras is my guess). We added 2 OT projects to a fairly stacked OT group, yet, so far, have completely ignored the interior OL depth.

Now this is kind of like the S situation. Because one one got hurt, we could see how the back ups would fare. Maybe they are happy with the current situaton, so my "concern" may be unwarranted. I hope so, but I'd feel a lot better if we signed Mangold.

c. The schedule: Looking at this schedule I can't imagine how FO's declared that the Pats had the easiest schedule this season. NFL.com just came out with their post draft rankings, and while I know it doesn't mean anything, it is interesting to note that of the top 13 teams on the list the Pats play 7 of them including #2 (Falcons) #3 (Steelers), and #4 (Raiders). That doesn't sound like a cake walk to me. (btw- the Pats were ranked #1)

Not only that - There is the issue of that 6 game stretch where they play 5 road games. This is a schedule anomoly that almost NEVER happens. I think twice in the last 20 years. And IIRC I don't think either team won more than 3 games. Think about it, that is almost 2 straight months on the road. :eek:

OK so there really are only 3 concerns, and compared to questions most teams have, they don't amount to much. I mean the DL, at worst will be OK, but will it be as good as it was last season, which ended up being OK, but not dominant. What we get from Guy, Ealy and Flowers will tell. btw- Flowers is going to have to raise HIS game as well. Teams are going to start looking for him as he will start the season as the Pats only proven pass rush threat.

2. Changes:

a. Football is ever cyclical. Alot of the new things we see from offenses like Carolina's have be taken almost directly from Single wing concepts of the 30's and 40's.

b. One of the reasons I worry about the DL is that I think the pendulum is going to start swinging back to the running game. The fact so many RB's were drafted in the first 3 rounds is a testiment to that fact. Since finding a good QB is so damned hard, teams are starting to realize that a good run game can cover a lot of QB sins (see Dallas, Titans, and even Buffalo). Also the move to smaller faster defenses who play nickel as their base make it prudent and easier to run the ball more. We can see it in our own off season planning with the additions of Burkhead and Gillislee. So watch for that change this season.

3. Still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that JG is still here. I believe that Cleveland DID offer the #12 plus more this year and next, but the Pats didn't budge. I'm OK with it, especially since I think we got a guy who can be the edge rusher I wanted with that #12 pick down the road.

But what I can't get my head around is the meaning that decision implies. They didn't turn down those draft assets simply because they wanted the best back up possible for 2017. I can only conclude that they have made the decision that JG is going to be the next QB for the NE Patriots.....period.

So it seems, there is a good probability that this will be Tom Brady's last season with the team. That is a hard concept to digest. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is most logical conclusion. I know the fashionable narrative is that they will franchise JG in 2018, but while possible, the number will just be so restrictive, that it makes no sense for the rest of the team.

I wonder what Brady is thinking? I can't imagine he doesn't see the implications of the lack of a move. I can't imagine that Brady, BB and Kraft, haven't had a disucssion about it. And I can't imagine that it won't be a huge story line by the mediots the entire 2017 season, filled with rampant speculation. Because, we KNOW the Pats and Brady are never going to directly address it.

I think this is my 10,000th post. That's a lot of crap I've written over the years. I hope some of it was at least interesting. And as usual, your comments and additions will make the thread better

...and after reading, I was transported back in time to a Saturday evening... perhaps just before midnight...














tenor.gif


:)
 
I know everyone is riding high right now . . .
1 Concerns - . . .

b. The interior of the OL - . . . There were no holes. I'd be OK with David Andrews at C, but I'd be happier with an upgrade. His physical limitations make him a liability in the run game, and an issue against certain DLmen in pass protection. More and more 4-3 teams are lining up a DT or LB right on Andrews to push the pocket.

I'm sure there is a back up C on the team, but it's pretty much anyone's guess who it is. (Karras is my guess). We added 2 OT projects to a fairly stacked OT group, yet, so far, have completely ignored the interior OL depth. . . .

I think the recent articles about pats drafting strategies (that when they trade back, they're regrouping after they just lost out on someone they wanted), gave an indication they were planning to address C in third round but the two guys came off the board. So now it's Mangold, otherFA cut downs, or Andrews and 19 Hail Marys. This is definitely a weak spot.

3. Still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that JG is still here. I believe that Cleveland DID offer the #12 plus more this year and next, but the Pats didn't budge. I'm OK with it, especially since I think we got a guy who can be the edge rusher I wanted with that #12 pick down the road.

But what I can't get my head around is the meaning that decision implies. They didn't turn down those draft assets simply because they wanted the best back up possible for 2017. I can only conclude that they have made the decision that JG is going to be the next QB for the NE Patriots.....period.

So it seems, there is a good probability that this will be Tom Brady's last season with the team. That is a hard concept to digest. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is most logical conclusion. I know the fashionable narrative is that they will franchise JG in 2018, but while possible, the number will just be so restrictive, that it makes no sense for the rest of the team.

I wonder what Brady is thinking? I can't imagine he doesn't see the implications of the lack of a move. I can't imagine that Brady, BB and Kraft, haven't had a disucssion about it. And I can't imagine that it won't be a huge story line by the mediots the entire 2017 season, filled with rampant speculation. Because, we KNOW the Pats and Brady are never going to directly address it.

IIRC a couple years ago, TB said he-RK-BB all KNEW then when he would retire. Well, just think about all these SB seasons he-BB lived thru with controversy [he doesn't want that if this is his last shot]. I can just imagine that he doesn't want a farewell tour while he is chasing a Vince (this ain't baseball) and they don't care about giving anybody scoops. So this could be tighter info than the Manhattan project and tb's last year. The avocado ice cream and to age 45 just posturing.

OR, BB just wants his insurance and is willing to roll the dice with getting a discounted level of picks for a franchised JAG for a year of backup QB service (and keeping the pats gameplan/playbook in house and not around the league competitors-abs know it better than others). It would not be the first time BB has a different valuation system. Just saying.
 
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