How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[vicspats]

If your hangup is on my use of "100x" then that's pretty weak. I didn't give credit to one person. What I said was: "players are about 100 times more important than coaches" and Brady was more responsible for the success the Patriots had the past 20+ years than Belichick.

There is simply no logical argument to counter the above. Even the biggest Belichick-krishna on this board cannot escape the fact that when Belichick didn't have talented players, his teams sucked. Anyone who calls Belichick the GOAT is logically forced to admit that even the greatest HC of all time cannot elevate an untalented squad to anything more than 4 wins.

Oh please, tell us all about your glorious high school days and how that gives you so much more wisdom and insight than everyone else here. Because we never played in high school or college. Nope. None of us.

And yet every freaking position in the nfl has at least one position coach. At every level there is a teacher, you make zero sense. If that were also true no coaches would ever get fired. They are so far down on the level of importance of winning, that that are totally interchangeable. Heres a bit of info, I could be wrong, but absolutely everyone that plays pro sports, hold onto your hat, is absolutely a talented athlete. It’s up to the coaches to squeeze everything they can out of the player.

You can have the greatest players in the league, but if you do not know how to use them then they will suck.
The Giants offense was helped by a kick ass defense who kept Buffalo off the field...

Hey whhhooowww!!! That would mean that coaching has something to do with winning .. and that .. well that’s just … nutz

 

[vicspats]

I would explain the why but then it would just feed your ego that thinks you make the rules of fandom.

Ok … I’ll meet you half way. Just hear me out. Is it possible that someone that has followed the team 5, 10, 20, 30 50 years would and should have a different opinion of the team, pending where they started? If someone came on board as a young new fan in the last 5 years things definitely look bleak, but as a fan for over 50, some of us can’t be mad at any of it. It was ****ing awesome!!! It will never happen again. Ever !! The odds are completely stacked against us. I’ll forever be grateful for The Tuna, and Kraft, and Vinateri, and Law, and Belichick, and Brady. All of them made this happen. I’ll keep hoping and believing and watching and pulling my hair out and cursing at the tv. The memories this team gave all of us, honestly priceless. Absolutely hope that we can pull together at least one more Super Bowl …but I’m honestly grateful for all of it. Buy the ticket , take the ride…

 

[signbabybrady]

Makes me think of Dan Marino, one of the best pure passers the NFL has ever seen. He played for the coach who has the most career victories in the NFL, yet the two together never won a Super Bowl. Does Marino win multiple Super Bowls if he plays for Belichick?

A super bowl nevermind multiple is a hard thing to predict. In Shula's defense I don't think it would be fair to assume Bill would do more with him. (Puking a little for defending Shula)

I think it's easy to sit here and say Shula got old and wasted Marino but was there something a bout Marino that held himself back too or maybe just the team in the 80s that just couldn't quite replicate the magic they had in 70s. Credit to Dmac and Jules and the boys for being able to replicate what the previous regime did.

I would say my final point and reason I chose to respond is Superbowls are hard to predict but I think even the most ardent BB hater would agree that Marino wouldn't have gotten BB fired like Mac did even with Matty P at OC.

Bill easily passes Shula's wins record and probably coaches as long as he wants like Shula did with Marino too.

 

[venecol]

Chuck Noll didn't win a Super Bowl without Terry Bradshaw. He had losing records before and after.
This just illustrates how silly the OP is.

Noll won divisions, and playoff games with the likes of Mark Malone, David Woodley, Cliff Stoudt and Bubby Brister. He actually made it to AFCCG with Malone.

That's the point. Quite a few of these great HCs won the division and had several playoff wins with non-elite QBs and w/o their HOF QB. Something Belichick was unable to do w/o Brady.

Noll w/o Bradshaw: 10 seasons
Record: 86-97 (.470)
Losing seasons: 5
Division wins: 2
Made playoffs: 3
CCG: 1
Playoff record: 2-3

Belichick w/o Brady: 11 seasons
Record: 83-101 (.451)
Losing seasons: 8
Division wins: 0
Made playoffs: 2
CCG: 0
Playoff record: 1-2

There are other HCs that performed much better than Belichick w/o their elite QB. This just shows that Belichick's success was largely dependent on Brady in comparison to his peers.

 

[sb1]

All this nonsense about the players of today. BBs methods work back then and they work now.

Working well enough to win 4 games these days

 

[signbabybrady]

Noll won divisions, and playoff games with the likes of Mark Malone, David Woodley, Cliff Stoudt and Bubby Brister. He actually made it to AFCCG with Malone.

That's the point. Quite a few of these great HCs won the division and had several playoff wins with non-elite QBs and w/o their HOF QB. Something Belichick was unable to do w/o Brady.

Noll w/o Bradshaw: 10 seasons
Record: 86-97 (.470)
Losing seasons: 5
Division wins: 2
Made playoffs: 3
CCG: 1
Playoff record: 2-3

Belichick w/o Brady: 11 seasons
Record: 83-101 (.451)
Losing seasons: 8
Division wins: 0
Made playoffs: 2
CCG: 0
Playoff record: 1-2

There are other HCs that performed much better than Belichick w/o their elite QB. This just shows that Belichick's success was largely dependent on Brady in comparison to his peers.

Weeeee more fun from you. You can't possibly believe that everything you just wrote is better than two more rings and 5 more SB appearances.

Without their HoF QB their winning percentages are about the same. With their HoF QBs Bill leaves him in the dust.

This is exactly why you are so frustrating you just twist things for the sake of it just to piss people off.

Who do you think is the better head coach Bill Belichick or Chuck Knoll?

 

[XLIX]

You can have the greatest players in the league, but if you do not know how to use them then they will suck.

Not true. Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl. That alone proves that horrible coaches with great talent can win championships.

 

[XLIX]

And yet every freaking position in the nfl has at least one position coach. At every level there is a teacher, you make zero sense. If that were also true no coaches would ever get fired. They are so far down on the level of importance of winning, that that are totally interchangeable.

I wouldn't say "totally interchangeable" but they are definitely far more interchangeable than the players are. There are a lot of guys besides Andy Reid that would win in KC but if you got rid of Mahomes, then KC would still have no Super Bowls since SB4.

Bill Walsh is seen as a great coach, among the greatest of all time. How did San Francisco do when Walsh retired and the team was taken over by George Seifert, a guy who generally is not seen as that great of a coach? They went 14-2 and obliterated Denver in the Super Bowl. Seifert would win again 5 years later with a different phenomenally talented QB. Then he went to Carolina and was atrocious.

Dallas won 2 Super Bowls with Jimmy Johnson, a guy seen as a great coach. Then the team was turned over to Barry Switzer, a guy seen as a horrible coach. Regardless, they would win the Super Bowl again in Switzer's 2nd year.

The bottom line is this: If coaching is so phenomenally important, and Belichick is the greatest of all time, then explain the past 4 seasons. Explain 29-39.

 

[venecol]

Weeeee more fun from you. You can't possibly believe that everything you just wrote is better than two more rings and 5 more SB appearances.

Nobody is discussing SB wins. Sit this one out if you can't keep up.

Without their HoF QB their winning percentages are about the same. With their HoF QBs Bill leaves him in the dust.

Thanks for bringing that up. Belichick had Brady for 19 years (as a starter). Brady had the longest and highest peaks for a QB in NFL history.

Noll had Bradshaw for 13 years. Bradshaw isn't even considered in the top 15 all-time QBs by many. How many other HCs had an elite QB for 19 years? I can't think of any. Noll won 4 SBs in 6 years. It took Belichick 10 years after his 3rd to win his 4th.

That's the biggest difference between these elite HCs. No other HC was fortunate enough to have an elite QB (the GOAT) remain consistently good for such a long time.

Belichick benefitted a lot more from having Brady as his QB. Once you remove Brady from the equation, Belichick's record is paltry in comparison to his peers w/o their top QB.

 

[sb1]

Not true. Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl. That alone proves that horrible coaches with great talent can win championships.

And Peyton Manning carried his coach with a sub .300 college record to a Super Bowl

 

[Patriot Missile]

A super bowl nevermind multiple is a hard thing to predict. In Shula's defense I don't think it would be fair to assume Bill would do more with him. (Puking a little for defending Shula)

I think it's easy to sit here and say Shula got old and wasted Marino but was there something a bout Marino that held himself back too or maybe just the team in the 80s that just couldn't quite replicate the magic they had in 70s. Credit to Dmac and Jules and the boys for being able to replicate what the previous regime did.

I would say my final point and reason I chose to respond is Superbowls are hard to predict but I think even the most ardent BB hater would agree that Marino wouldn't have gotten BB fired like Mac did even with Matty P at OC.

Bill easily passes Shula's wins record and probably coaches as long as he wants like Shula did with Marino too.

I remember some crazy stat about those Dolphins teams. Only one 1000 yard rusher in Marinos career. Karim Abdul Jabbar in 96 . No, not the basketball player. Talk about not emphasizing the run game.

 

[Wozzy]

Not true. Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl. That alone proves that horrible coaches with great talent can win championships.

Hahaha... yeah, Switzer won with the same exact 2X SB winning roster and Jimmy Johnson's assistant coaches.

And that proves something?

 

[Wozzy]

What I've learned from reading this thread intently (not) after taking a few days off is that the premier defensive mind of the 21st century is really a dummy who backed into success.

And even though he drafted then developed Tom Brady into the killer he became, he was luckily to have not only made the pick, but stuck with him when the mass media and fanbase assumed Drew Bledsoe was getting his job back in week thirteen in 2001.

This is a conversation for dumb people. Those of us guilty of engaging in it, are dumber for having done so.

 

[maust]

.Noll won 4 SBs in 6 years. It took Belichick 10 years after his 3rd to win his 4th.

That's the biggest difference between these elite HCs.

Noll and Lombardi won with largely the same teams. The biggest difference between the 'elite HC's' is the others had no free agency or cap to deal with. I don't care about the ridiculous pissing match/trolling going on here but to ignore the difficulties of maintaining a winning culture in the age of free agency and the cap is straight up ********.

 

[signbabybrady]

Nobody is discussing SB wins. Sit this one out if you can't keep up.


Thanks for bringing that up. Belichick had Brady for 19 years (as a starter). Brady had the longest and highest peaks for a QB in NFL history.

Noll had Bradshaw for 13 years. Bradshaw isn't even considered in the top 15 all-time QBs by many. How many other HCs had an elite QB for 19 years? I can't think of any. Noll won 4 SBs in 6 years. It took Belichick 10 years after his 3rd to win his 4th.

That's the biggest difference between these elite HCs. No other HC was fortunate enough to have an elite QB (the GOAT) remain consistently good for such a long time.

Belichick benefitted a lot more from having Brady as his QB. Once you remove Brady from the equation, Belichick's record is paltry in comparison to his peers w/o their top QB.

Who do you think was better Knoll or Bill?

 

[Wozzy]

Who do you think was better Knoll or Bill?

We're arguing about two of the greatest head coaches in over 100+ years of professional football history. Paul Brown is the only other person in the conversation.

Meanwhile we have some smooth brain types suggesting coaching doesn't matter.

 

[Wozzy]

What did Brady have that the greatest QB's of his generation didn't?

Hmmm....

 

[Tunescribe]

What did Brady have that the greatest QB's of his generation didn't?

Hmmm....?

That's a thread-closer right there.

 

[maust]

We're arguing about two of the greatest professional coaches in over 100 years of football history. Paul Brown is the only other person in the conversation.

 

[Tunescribe]

And perhaps the very greatest of them all: