Patriots Training Camp- Wednesday August 24th

[PatsFanInVa]

Watch out for that Bolden screen or run up the middle on 3rd and long!

aww **** there's goes our first round pick in '23.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Agholor is going to have to add some weight to play tackle.

yeah, let Thornton do it.

 

[Pats2000]

Thanks this was super useful and pretty nerdy ...

So as I understand, EP works when you have established QB and receiver tandem with a established OC , whilst for a team in transition, just holds you back.

Could EP system be one of the reasons for the subpar season that cam had. Agree , cam was not a functional QB and Mac acclimatized well to EP last year. But lays a lot more learning on QB and receivers.

So the reason to move away from it this year has more to do with Josh who is not around to teach the nuances or explore the infinities as well as understanding limitations of new receivers who join the team. so we go to a simplified offense that is easier to coach and also for new players to acclimatize. If that's the case , when can we expect to see better assimilation of these newer but simpler concepts by the offense?

Does the new shanahan /mcvay system place more learning on offensive line instead of QB and receivers , hence leading to sloppy offensive line play? If that's the case our evaluation of Offensive linemen might need to change?

Who said they are moving away from EP?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Looks like Meyers will be wr1 this year as well with increased touchdowns

He's good, and all this "who's our WR1" business is something we'll look back and say WAS the case, rather than something that obviously is the case going in.

I don't believe Parker has been injured

Yet.

Forgive me, it was just there. He gets hurt a lot. He had that one great year, 2019, when everybody with a fantasy team decided he was a big dawg. It's the only time he broke 1,000 yards in a season. In 2020 he was in the 700s, in 2021 the 500s. This "Parker's the #1 because..." thing just isn't backed up by anything real.

But like I responded above, "who's our number 1?" is dumb. Annoint a guy this week, if we're doing it right, it'll be another guy the next week (unless the change in system produces a more uneven distribution of balls.)

No that's not what I meant. Meyers has been leading in terms of touches, reliability and now touchdowns as well . Looks like his athleticism has improved a bit this season . So there is a probability that he could still be our WR1 but with improved stats on touchdowns and YAC.

Looks like the most likely to be looked back as "the guy" to me -- and that would not be a good or bad thing, just a thing. If we get 3 co-number 1s (i.e., 3 "number twos,") well, at least we won't feel weighed down by that big lunch. Baddumching. But seriously, that will be a big improvement over last year's "two twos and a three." If Meyers gets looked back at as our "number one," I think that will be a sign that we ran a competent but not explosive attack. But what do I know? You can see on here that I'm pretty high on Meyers, I just don't think he's that homerun hitter. Agholor's been finding success lately, and if that trend continues, he's a guy who can light it up.

Exactly, September is basically extended training camp

Yeah in terms of figuring out who are the stars, what teams are surprise contenders and surprise pretenders, and so on.

But they count. So may our blundering extended training camp be good enough to get us out of the gate 2-2 or better!

 

[Toofy]

Who said they are moving away from EP?

Well I assumed with the new offensive philosophy we will move a good distance away from EP. If that's not the case, I stand corrected.

 

[borisman]

It was either the belt or a tampering lawsuit lol

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Yeah, people read way too much into the preseason.

I can't remember if it was 2003 or 2004, but I remember the Patriots defense played so poorly in the second preseason game that Belichick made the starters play for most of the game where the other team pulled their starters by midway through the second quarter. Those two years had two of the best Patriots' defenses in Patriots' history.

And I also remember in 2007 that Moss struggled in training camp and got injured they shut him down and people were even talking about him being cut on the final cutdown. He went onto break records that season.

I don't put much stock into training camp and the preseason. It is concerning the offense has struggled, but I don't make definitive judgements until the Pats play 3-4 games and see if they fix things.

I agree with that sentiment but I think this situation is a little bit different.

In those exemple there was actual talent on the field. It was just a case of talented player playing bad in the preseason.

We still don’t really know the level of talent on this team. There are question marks at almost every position on the roster in my opinion. So it could be the same thing and a talented team not playing great or it is just a simple case that this team is just not good enough.

But regardless, I agree with you that we will have a better idea of which is it after the first 4-5 games.

 

[JayNM]

I really dislike how dissipated and accepted this "Only gets real in October" mantra is

 

[Ollie]

I really dislike how dissipated and accepted this "Only gets real in October" mantra is

Didn't Bill himself say that?

 

[BTTA]

Well I assumed with the new offensive philosophy we will move a good distance away from EP. If that's not the case, I stand corrected.

Its not. Several posters here have pointed out that EP remains the base system and that they've had other features in it for years. This year, they are adding Shanahan features and simplifying the EP.

 

[JayNM]

Didn't Bill himself say that?

He absolutely did. And I thought it was a really poor choice of words, given his status and reputation

In Brazil, we have a saying "The 3 points at the begginning of a championship are worth the same as the 3 at the end". And these cases, there are 38 games, not 17 only.

Obviously I know that no one is 100% at the start of a regular season, anywhere, but ever since these words were uttered by BB, Ive seen how embedded it became for many people to say like it's a matter of fact, even local reporters. And I don't like it. To me, sounds presumptuous to act like 1/4th of the season is an "Extended Training camp". With Brady, you know, it was a lot easier to accept it in some way, bc he was that good of an Ace and Clutch artist. These ain't those days no more and even then I did not like the mentality

 

[RobertWeathers]

He could use a bro/manssiere up top for support.

In all seriousness the guy is 70 y/o. With the exception of the man-boobs he looks pretty damn good and his energy level is incredible.

I heard from someone he lost like 20lbs over the summer.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

In all serious the guy is 70 y/o. With the exception of the man-boobs he looks pretty damn good and his energy level is incredible.

I heard from someone he lost like 20lbs over the summer.

He looks like he lost weight.

 

[PP2]

Again a great post ..
My understanding was we are moving more to a system that mimics shanahan/mcvay to a certain degree . So my hypothesis is OL is struggling because of the move to those concepts which could possibly lay more emphasis on OL towards adjusting formations based on Defense alignments .

The OL is struggling because there are new players (notably Strange) and because of a lack of player consistency and line chemistry. When you keep rotating linemen in and out it's hard to maintain consistency, but at the same time this is something you want to do during TC to try to find the best combination/chemistry. TC is where you want to be making all those mistakes.

And on top of that, a lot of fundamental issues to fix, pad level, keeping their shoulders square during zone blocking, etc. All normal TC stuff.

And as far as the Shanny and McVay tweaks to the new hybrid offense, I think in part for sake of simplicity, simplfied veribage, and also to get off the line faster, play faster. That's the point of the bunch stuff McVay likes to run- it helps to disguise and makes for quicker releases. On the downside, the WC style zone run stuff, esp. the OZ, that Shanny and McVay feature in their offense, is not easy to teach. Throw that on top of all the issues the OL is already dealing with, and you have a big headache that's very likely going to carry on into the regular season for the first few games.

But in the NFL it's not about how you start, it's about how you finish.

 

[ashley]

Some tidbits from yesterday:

 

[PP2]

The OL is struggling because there are new players (notably Strange) and because of a lack of player consistency and line chemistry. When you keep rotating linemen in and out it's hard to maintain consistency, but at the same time this is something you want to do during TC to try to find the best combination/chemistry. TC is where you want to be making all those mistakes.

And on top of that, a lot of fundamental issues to fix, pad level, keeping their shoulders square during zone blocking, etc. All normal TC stuff.

And as far as the Shanny and McVay tweaks to the new hybrid offense, I think in part for sake of simplicity, simplfied veribage, and also to get off the line faster, play faster. That's the point of the bunch stuff McVay likes to run- it helps to disguise and makes for quicker releases. On the downside, the WC style zone run stuff, esp. the OZ, that Shanny and McVay feature in their offense, is not easy to teach. Throw that on top of all the issues the OL is already dealing with, and you have a big headache that's very likely going to carry on into the regular season for the first few games.

But in the NFL it's not about how you start, it's about how you finish.

I'd like to add a few things about the OZ tweaks.. to help clarify:

A simple way to understand zone run blocking is that in zone blocking, you are attacking space, not players.

And I don't really like the term "outside zone" because it makes you think the play is going to go outside every single time and that's not the case. It's about stressing the defense horizontally. In many of those OZ schemes, you'll see cutback lanes being exploited. The success of a zone run ultimately depends on the ability of the RB to read and react quickly. But most of the pressure is on the OL to execute.

Now the issue with running the OZ or wide zone stuff is that it's its own system with its own language and verbiage. There is no mix and plug. There's no "we'll borrow this part and that part." If you want to be good at it, you have to be working on it all the time.

And then on top of that, you're going to add PA wrinkles, and such. It's a big transition to make. I'm fully expecting a slow start to this season.

 

[ashley]

 

[PatsFanInVa]

in zone blocking, you are attacking space, not players.

Ohhhhh then we're doing it right

 

[203Pat]

Again, until we see it transfer into the regular season, I think people are reading too much into it. I pointed out based on his training camp performance, Moss should have been cut before the 2007 season.

Reports about the defense has been generally positive. The issues with the offense seems to be the offensive line primarily not the entire offense. We saw last year the o-line play like crap the first month of the season and then get fixed. They can fix the issues with the o-line before the season starts or early in the season.

Not saying it will be fixed, but until they prove they can’t fix it, I won’t accept that it cannot be fixed and the season is lost.

I am not in the completely lost hope category but having the line learn a new blocking scheme in the running game without Dante or really any veteran offensive coach and a second year QB makes me nervous. If it looked like this with Brady I would say "So what?" but mix that with Mac still learning how to be an NFL QB that is what scares me.

 

[Pats2000]

Well I assumed with the new offensive philosophy we will move a good distance away from EP. If that's not the case, I stand corrected.

I dont believe they are. I think they are tossing old plays, reducing the possible route trees and adding more zone blocking concepts