Patriots Front 7

[Kontradiction]

Malcom brown started for his entire contract. That’s not a bust.
You are going back 10 years to call 3rd and 4th rounders missed picks. What do you expect from a 3rd or 4th rounder?

Aye and now he’s the starter on the worst run defense since 1973 for this franchise. I’m not sure how calling him a starter on this run D is very lofty praise.

 

[maineman209]

And don't forget the eminently predictable whiff of Vinnie Valentine.

Valentine was drafted at the end of the 3rd round. He contributed more as a developing rookie in a reserve/relief role (behind Brown and Branch) than Shelton has this season. He lost his entire second year to a knee injury suffered in 2017 Camp and never came back from it. I don't possess a crystal ball that's capable of predicting that. Perhaps I need an upgrade.

Anyway, sh*t happens. Pretty low on my litany of complaints.

Eddie Goldman says hi.

Brown ($7.6M career earnings, rookie deal):
58 games/49 starts .. 181 tkls/14 TFL .. 8.5sk/16 QBH

Goldman ($15.5M, extended after 3 seasons):
50 games/46 starts .. 119 tkl/14 TFL .. 10.5sk/17 QBH

Jarrett ($3.8M, rookie deal):
59 games/44 starts .. 174 tkl/30 TFL .. 14.0sk/37 QBH

Interesting value comparison.

Goldman's original rookie deal was only $900k less than Brown's. The Bears signed him to a 4-year extension worth $42M after his 3rd season. I suppose that's what we can expect Brown to receive on a new contract?

 

[maineman209]

The term "starter" is relative though, right?

Right. If the team has 4 DEs, all averaging 45%-55% of the snaps over the course of the season, playing two at a time in a variable rotation, are they all "starters"?

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

Valentine was drafted at the end of the 3rd round. He contributed more as a developing rookie in a reserve/relief role (behind Brown and Branch) than Shelton has this season. He lost his entire second year to a knee injury suffered in 2017 Camp and never came back from it. I don't possess a crystal ball that's capable of predicting that. Perhaps I need an upgrade.

Anyway, sh*t happens. Pretty low on my litany of complaints.



Brown ($7.6M career earnings, rookie deal):
58 games/49 starts .. 181 tkls/14 TFL .. 8.5sk/16 QBH

Goldman ($15.5M, extended after 3 seasons):
50 games/46 starts .. 119 tkl/14 TFL .. 10.5sk/17 QBH

Jarrett ($3.8M, rookie deal):
59 games/44 starts .. 174 tkl/30 TFL .. 14.0sk/37 QBH

Interesting value comparison.

Goldman's original rookie deal was only $900k less than Brown's. The Bears signed him to a 4-year extension worth $42M after his 3rd season. I suppose that's what we can expect Brown to receive on a new contract?

Brown is a Jag no thank you.

 

[maineman209]

Brown is a Jag no thank you.

IOW, the Bears are vastly overpaying Goldman?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Right. If the team has 4 DEs, all averaging 45%-55% of the snaps over the course of the season, playing two at a time in a variable rotation, are they all "starters"?

No, I meant a starter on one team may suck and not even make the practice squad on another team. Elandon Roberts plays significant snaps for us but he would be laughed off many teams.

 

[Triumph]

Aye and now he’s the starter on the worst run defense since 1973 for this franchise. I’m not sure how calling him a starter on this run D is very lofty praise.

5th round pick Jalen Samuel ran over the NE DL for nearly 10 yards a carry. Brandon Bolden vs the NE run D brought back memories of Emmit Smith.

Brown is a Bust and wont be here next year thankfully.

Shelton is only hanging around for the free food at Krafts cafeteria. I heard you can get anything you want including lobster.

 

[maineman209]

No, I meant a starter on one team may suck and not even make the practice squad on another team. Elandon Roberts plays significant snaps for us but he would be laughed off many teams.

And yet, in spite of averaging less than 50% of the D-snaps per game, Roberts was the 4th leading tackler on the Pats going into the Steelers' game (he left the game after about 8 snaps, presumably due to a thigh injury that cropped up on Saturday, and JMac passed him in total tackles).

Roberts is also 2nd on the team with 6 TFLs (behind Flowers with 8), and tied for 4th in PDs at 4 (with Harmon and Jackson).

BB has praised him for how far he's come since last season on more than one occasion.

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

And yet, in spite of averaging less than 50% of the D-snaps per game, Roberts was the 4th leading tackler on the Pats going into the Steelers' game (he left the game after about 8 snaps, presumably due to a thigh injury that cropped up on Saturday, and JMac passed him in total tackles).

Roberts is also 2nd on the team with 6 TFLs (behind Flowers with 8), and tied for 4th in PDs at 4 (with Harmon and Jackson).

BB has praised him for how far he's come since last season on more than one occasion.

Roberts is the least of our problems hes been fine.

 

[maineman209]

I really thought a lot of yesterday's problems were on the Dline. Rberger was fitting passes into incredibly tight windows--good coverage--but he could because there was no pressure. In order to get pressure, we had to blitz, which always leaves holes somewhere else. Our Dline was getting turned and moved on nearly every running play. Edge was often set, but so far upfield that it spread out the front to create gaping holes. Secondary coverage was pretty good against a talented group, but then you're trying to stop the run with a light front. Unless the front 6 do a great job, and they didn't, the RB is into the secondary. Happened all game long. Modern emphasis on passing means base is now nickel, placing much more value on Dline and versatile LBs--they have to do more, and it's unfortunately our weakest link.

The Pats were playing a lot of dime packages all game long, so a lot of the time, it was the Front Five tasked with stopping the run, covering the edge and getting pressure.

 

[captain stone]

And yet, in spite of averaging less than 50% of the D-snaps per game, Roberts was the 4th leading tackler on the Pats going into the Steelers' game (he left the game after about 8 snaps, presumably due to a thigh injury that cropped up on Saturday, and JMac passed him in total tackles).

Roberts is also 2nd on the team with 6 TFLs (behind Flowers with 8), and tied for 4th in PDs at 4 (with Harmon and Jackson).

BB has praised him for how far he's come since last season on more than one occasion.

What Bill says for public consumption about anybody or anything means less than nothing to me.

Roberts sucks. He's a sucky player on a sucky defense. It's all right to admit it, too; you'll feel better after you do.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Just a general self-serving statement that I don't make with enjoyment: I hope those "chicken littles" from this offseason like myself are now vindicated in the analysis of the 2018 team outlook. The glaring amount of busted draft picks, lack of young talent, and aging core roster has indeed caught up with this team this season, just as quite of a few of us pointed out despite angry posters telling us how wrong we were. It's not the end of the world, nor was that the prediction, as most reasonable people said this team would go from elite to very good, which has happened.

This thread is just one of a several: the front 7, the receiving core, just overall lack of young playmakers, it's all tied to the drafting. And maybe many can understand the frustration of trading a $120M quarterback for a mere second round draft pick, a 2017 starting quarterback for a bust wide receiver, and note that this team could have really, really used more draft assets and could have done better than a phone call to John Lynch (widely reported as the method how they "built a market" for Garoppolo, with many executives saying they didn't even know JG was available for trade at the 2017 deadline.)

All that said, things can change very quickly with the draft. It just takes 2-3 really good playmakers to change the whole outlook of the team. Clearly the front 7 would benefit most from an elite player.

This team still has the fourth highest odds to win the Super Bowl. You can still appreciate the greatness of this organization and acknowledge they've been one of the absolute worst drafting teams from 2015-present (while being one of the absolute best from 2009-14.) Take from that what you will.

 

[mgteich]

The rest of the world thinks that the patriots are one of the best teams in the NFL. We are not the best this year. The bettors are probably close. There are 3-5 teams more likely than us to win the Super Bowl. We will go into the offseason with a the normal number of free agents to sign, veterans likely to go, and outright holes. We have a pretty normal amount of cap room (including possible restructures). We have more than the normal number of high draft choices. Going into the offseason, the bettors are likely to have us in the top 6 as they have since 2002 (subject to check)..

But we are on a message board. Here, we say the team is terrible and needs help everywhere, have no young talent and have little chance of having a good team.

And the answer when we succeed seems always to be that we have Brady and Belichick, and the rest doesn't matter.
======
I submit that we have had the best franchise BY FAR since Kraft bought the team. Each year, we are favored to win 10 games and be in the playoffs. And the team has succeeded in this measure of competitiveness for a long time. Under Kraft, this team is a winner, overall, in the SB, and in playoffs.

And yet, we continue to whine.

.
This team still has the fourth highest odds to win the Super Bowl. You can still appreciate the greatness of this organization and acknowledge they've been one of the absolute worst drafting teams from 2015-present (while being one of the absolute best from 2009-14.) Take from that what you will.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Since those "gold ole days", the Pats haven't had the kind of draft capital that was required to snag Seymour (#6 overall, after a 5-11 season), or Warren (#13 overall, after a 9-7 season) or Wilfork (#21 overall after trades).

The Pats drafted those guys into an almost pure base 3-4 (generally better against the run than most 4-3 variations) with LB and DB support provided by guys who were drafted before BB arrived. It was also in the era before NFL rules changed to emphasize passing.

Don't forget Mayo at #10 overall! (they traded back from 6 i think?)

 

[203Pat]

Bill hasn't adapted to the "basketball on grass" trend that the league has shifted towards. You need some athletes in the front 7. Most "good" defenses have a more athletic D-tackle and a LB/DE tweener pass rusher paired with a few smaller athletic linebackers. We have old school space eaters and big slow LBs.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Bill hasn't adapted to the "basketball on grass" trend that the league has shifted towards. You need some athletes in the front 7. Most "good" defenses have a more athletic D-tackle and a LB/DE tweener pass rusher paired with a few smaller athletic linebackers. We have old school space eaters and big slow LBs.

That's crazy as I was thinking the same thing. The NFL is starting to emulate the NBA which is almost unbearable to watch. When crappy basketball teams are posting 120+ points there's something seriously wrong. The KC Chiefs remind me of the Warriors in terms of their style of offense.

 

[203Pat]

That's crazy as I was thinking the same thing. The NFL is starting to emulate the NBA which is almost unbearable to watch. When crappy basketball teams are posting 120+ points there's something seriously wrong. The KC Chiefs remind me of the Warriors in terms of their style of offense.

The NBA seems to gain a bigger and bigger following especially with the younger crowd. They like the 3 million jersey combos, the sneakers, the personalities, and of course draining 3's and big dunks. The NBA has transitioned from an inside out to an outside in game. Not many teams build around a build around a center who just posts up in the paint anymore. They build around shooters and slashing point guards. Because of that and the lack of defense, points and "highlight" plays are up.
The NFL has taken notice and modeled their rules to allow this. Don't let the defenders play defense and try to market the big young stars more. They even scaled back on the celebration rule and keep the color rush crap going. They see how the NBA has grown in popularity and with all the negative press football has been getting they are trying to find a way to stay top dog.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Just a general self-serving statement that I don't make with enjoyment: I hope those "chicken littles" from this offseason like myself are now vindicated in the analysis of the 2018 team outlook. The glaring amount of busted draft picks, lack of young talent, and aging core roster has indeed caught up with this team this season, just as quite of a few of us pointed out despite angry posters telling us how wrong we were. It's not the end of the world, nor was that the prediction, as most reasonable people said this team would go from elite to very good, which has happened.

This thread is just one of a several: the front 7, the receiving core, just overall lack of young playmakers, it's all tied to the drafting. And maybe many can understand the frustration of trading a $120M quarterback for a mere second round draft pick, a 2017 starting quarterback for a bust wide receiver, and note that this team could have really, really used more draft assets and could have done better than a phone call to John Lynch (widely reported as the method how they "built a market" for Garoppolo, with many executives saying they didn't even know JG was available for trade at the 2017 deadline.)

All that said, things can change very quickly with the draft. It just takes 2-3 really good playmakers to change the whole outlook of the team. Clearly the front 7 would benefit most from an elite player.

This team still has the fourth highest odds to win the Super Bowl. You can still appreciate the greatness of this organization and acknowledge they've been one of the absolute worst drafting teams from 2015-present (while being one of the absolute best from 2009-14.) Take from that what you will.

Unfortunately, our predictions are coming true. I thought the WR's weren't good enough. They aren't. I thought the D-line would play so bad they'd get blown up ala 2002. This probably is going to happen. And I see Trey Flowers walking due to him being wasted in the scheme.

The Jimmy G trade still stings whether he succeeds in in SF or not given what they received in return. Even if Dawson becomes a very good player, it's still not good enough to off set a potential franchise QB.

In addition, the Chandler Jones trade looks more awful as well only getting a 2nd round pick for a guy who is good for 12 sacks a year. Using that 2nd round pick on Cyrus Jones and getting nothing out of him is even worse.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The NBA seems to gain a bigger and bigger following especially with the younger crowd. They like the 3 million jersey combos, the sneakers, the personalities, and of course draining 3's and big dunks. The NBA has transitioned from an inside out to an outside in game. Not many teams build around a build around a center who just posts up in the paint anymore. They build around shooters and slashing point guards. Because of that and the lack of defense, points and "highlight" plays are up.
The NFL has taken notice and modeled their rules to allow this. Don't let the defenders play defense and try to market the big young stars more. They even scaled back on the celebration rule and keep the color rush crap going. They see how the NBA has grown in popularity and with all the negative press football has been getting they are trying to find a way to stay top dog.

I think Steph Curry is the one to blame for the current direction the NBA has gone. I've heard lots of young nonathletic kids relate to him.

You know it's getting bad when LeBron James of all people mocks the refs by defending players with his hands behind his back. I hate the current NBA.

 

[TheRainMaker]

No, I meant a starter on one team may suck and not even make the practice squad on another team. Elandon Roberts plays significant snaps for us but he would be laughed off many teams.

That's what I was thinking you meant as well. Lots of the Pats players on the front 6/7 are starting by default..