RCB : Eric Rowe or Jason McCourty?

[mgteich]

Jones had a fine year as a special teamer who developed enough for regular duty. Sure, he is a GOOD player. Who's arguing?

I think that we posters don't value slot corners enough. In our base defense, a slot corner is a starter, and an important one. IMO, we need a backup outside, and a backup inside. Sometimes, one player can backup all three positions, much as one player backs up the 3 positions of the IOL. HOWEVER, there is certainly a use/need for the 5th corner in case of injury. Obviously, that player needs to play special teams or be inactive (which is also fine).
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I understand that our history in drafting 2nd round corners is that they have been backups that take 2 years to develop. I expect more from Dawson. If he starts in the role of slot or nickel corner, I think that he can be useful immediately, probably starting if J Jones isn't ready to the start the season.
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AS AN ASIDE
From the stats you posted and touted, I think that you believe that J Jones is competing with McCourty and Rowe as the starter outside. We'll see.

I am coming to agree with folks that Rowe could be the #5 and perhaps on the outs looking in. My preference, even then, is to keep the relatively inexpensive backup.

According to BB himself, Jones already is a good player. I don't know of a higher authority on the subject to appeal to. Jones' stats merely confirm BB's opinion.

And, why wouldn't Jones be able to cover Brown? Brown is only 5'10". Jones is only 1" shorter. Jones is also faster (4.33/40) and at least as agile. Jones is also almost six years younger (Brown turns 30 in July).

Jones and Dawson do play the same position - cornerback. What their respective roles will be in the 2018 coverage schemes (that vary from week-to-week) has yet to be determined - and won't be determined be either of us.

AFAIK, there is no "standard slot CB", just as there is no "standard slot receiver". There are certainly media-driven stereotypes for both, but there's way more diversity IRL.

What might or might not have happened in the SB with JJ healthy is almost certainly far less a factor in the decision to draft another good CB than the fact that the contracts of Rowe, J-Mac, and even JJ expire at the end of this season (although JJ is an RFA, not UFA). Aside from Dawson and the UDFAs, the only cornerbacks under contract past the end of this season are Gilmore and Cy Jones. I'd say that's more than enough reason to draft a CB.

 

[mgteich]

If J Jones is PUPed, why isn't Dawson our likely nickel back?

I understand that with everyone healthy and performing as expected, Dawson will need to be flexible in order to get any reps. He'd be the 7th db at best (competing with Rowe for that). So, sure, I could see him playing a "safety" role. The important thing is not what you call the role of a 7th or 8th defensive back. The important thing is that Richards isn't one of the 7 or 8.

CORNERS : Gilmore, McCourty, Jones (Rowe)
SAFETIES: McCourty, Chung, Harmon

Jonathan Jones is unlikely to be ready by TC.. I figure he get's pupped.. Also, figure Dawson to replace Richards, IMHO, but with more versatility..

 

[maineman209]

I think that we posters don't value slot corners enough.

I'm not one of them. I've believed that the "nickel" DB (CB or Safety, whether actually covering the slot or not) has been the equivalent of a "starter" for years.

From the stats you posted and touted, I think that you believe that J Jones is competing with McCourty and Rowe as the starter outside.

I don't know whether he is or not. I'm just disagreeing with the notion of pre-emptively pigeonholing a player into one specific role because of a perceived size deficiency. It seems to lead people into a preference for a boundary corner who's tall, but not very good, over a corner who may actually be better in boundary coverage but who THEY think is "too short to be anything but a slot guy."

At this point, if my choice was between only Rowe and JJ for the bulk of the snaps at RCB in a particular game, I'd probably go with JJ.

The thing is that it's not nearly so regimented IRL that one guy just covers the slot and another guy is THE starter at RCB. Coverage assignments are fluid from game-to-game, and even within a particular game.

 

[Betterthanmost]

The issue with Rowe in the Superbowl is that the Eagles knew his weakness and had not fear going after him. If I had to choose, I will go with the angel I don't know.

 

[DaBruinz]

If J Jones is PUPed, why isn't Dawson our likely nickel back?

I understand that with everyone healthy and performing as expected, Dawson will need to be flexible in order to get any reps. He'd be the 7th db at best (competing with Rowe for that). So, sure, I could see him playing a "safety" role. The important thing is not what you call the role of a 7th or 8th defensive back. The important thing is that Richards isn't one of the 7 or 8.

CORNERS : Gilmore, McCourty, Jones (Rowe)
SAFETIES: McCourty, Chung, Harmon

Because, honestly, I think Crossen will beat him out for that and I believe that Dawson will be used by the Patriots in the Safety role. My heart tells me that they have him pegged as the immediate replacement for Richards and the future replacement for D. Mac. That is provided that he picks up the defense, of course, though I don't think he'll have the issues that Richards does.

I agree that Richards needs to be cut. The mistakes he made in the SB just can't be allowed..

 

[n6249c]

That decision will be based on what’s best for the team.

May be different from game to game

 

[chasa]

i think going into camp McCourty has the edge.

Once we see how the guys play will determine who goes where.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

This is like asking who would you rather have sex with Rosie O'Donnell or Charlie Sheen?

hahahaha, i don't know what world we live in where this post can get a dislike

 

[denverpatsfan]

Whomever is shorter needs to start. If both are over 6 foot tall they both should be cut. I drink the Koolaid.

 

[maineman209]

The issue with Rowe in the Superbowl is that the Eagles knew his weakness and had not fear going after him. If I had to choose, I will go with the angel I don't know.

What is Rowe's "weakness"? Downton Abbey? Laser pointers? Chubbies? Lemon meringue pie?

 

[supafly]

What is Rowe's "weakness"? Downton Abbey? Laser pointers? Chubbies? Lemon meringue pie?

Weird. Rowe and I seem to share all of the same weaknesses. I wonder how he feels about styrofoam, or if he can taste the color green.

 

[HailHydra]

2017 Cornerback comparison:

D-snaps played ...
Butler = 1037
Gilmore = 816
Jones = 439
Rowe = 259

Targeted on ...
Jones = 11.6% of snaps played
Butler = 8.9%
Gilmore = 8.3%
Rowe = 7.7%

Completion % allowed ...
Jones = 49.0%
Butler = 51.1%
Gilmore = 54.4%
Rowe = 70%

YPC Allowed ...
Jones = 13.2
Butler = 13.7
Gilmore = 14.2
Rowe = 16.2

TDs allowed/tgt ...
Jones = 3.9%
Gilmore = 4.4%
Rowe = 5.0%
Butler = 7.6%

INT + PBU/tgt ...
Jones = 19.6%
Butler = 16.3%
Gilmore = 13.2%
Rowe = 10.0%

Flags/tgt ...
Rowe = 0
Jones = 3.9%
Butler = 4.3%
Gilmore = 7.4%

Tackles/D-snap played ...
Jones = 8.2%
Gilmore = 6.1%
Butler = 5.8%
Rowe = 5.4%

God

 

[long distance]

We have reached the era of "positionless secondaries, where 5 and 6 DB's on the field will be commonplace, and that's why the Pats have loaded up on DB's this season.

no loading up really . its well within the norm going to minicamp/TC
unless you mean quality (which remains to be seen). i agree CB roster looks significantly stronger esp. in depth last seasons . but that also corresponds with what edge rush/LB rosters offer..

DBs on 90 roster 2016-2018:

S (7):
2016: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - Sunseri - Vereen - C.Thompson
2017: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - Thompson
2018: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - A.J.Moore

CB (10):
2016: Butler - Ryan - Coleman - Cy. Jones - JJ - LeBlanc - Roberts - Bentley - Biggers (9)
2017: Gilmore - Butler - Rowe - JJ - Cy - Coleman - Moore - Killings - Likely - Thomas
2018: Gilmore - J-Mac - Dawson - Rowe - JJ - Cy - Lewis - Wiltz - Crossen - J.C.Jackson

 

[patfanken]

no loading up really . its well within the norm going to minicamp/TC
unless you mean quality (which remains to be seen). i agree CB roster looks significantly stronger esp. in depth last seasons . but that also corresponds with what edge rush/LB rosters offer..

DBs on 90 roster 2016-2018:

S (7):
2016: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - Sunseri - Vereen - C.Thompson
2017: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - Thompson
2018: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - A.J.Moore

CB (10):
2016: Butler - Ryan - Coleman - Cy. Jones - JJ - LeBlanc - Roberts - Bentley - Biggers (9)
2017: Gilmore - Butler - Rowe - JJ - Cy - Coleman - Moore - Killings - Likely - Thomas
2018: Gilmore - J-Mac - Dawson - Rowe - JJ - Cy - Lewis - Wiltz - Crossen - J.C.Jackson

My point is not so much the QUANTITY of the potential DB's but the quality of them.

Rowe and JJ have both had success as rotational players. Dawson and CJones BOTH had great college careers. and all will be playing behind Gilmore and JMac. Plus we have a long history of having one of the "no names" elevating their play.

BTW- I know CJones is an easy target for those who like to get on certain players, but I wouldn't be shocked if he has a nice bounce back year. Remember most of his issues his rookie year came on ST's and his 2nd year was lost due to injury. I'd like to see what he has as a CB in TC before I'd write him off as a "bust" He was very highly thought of as a CB coming out of Alabama. Too highly thought of, in fact, to dismiss after just one disappointing season as a rookie.

 

[mgteich]

Compared to last year, we have JMac and Dawson instead of Butler and Coleman. I suppose, now that Butler is now considered a total flop, the current two are much stronger.

Last year, Butler was considered by most here as one of the best corners in the league (certainly much better than JMac). Coleman was our experienced (though not very good nickel back). Dawson is now considered much better. After all, 2nd round DB's have done so well here in their rookie years.
===================
So, no, I'm not celebrating yet. It seems, as always, that we are simply stating how great our current players are, compared to those who have gone.

Before the Super Bowl, there are very. very few here who would say that JMac was an upgrade to Butler. Is this downgrade outweighed by our #4 and #5 corners? by a lot?

My point is not so much the QUANTITY of the potential DB's but the quality of them.

Rowe and JJ have both had success as rotational players. Dawson and CJones BOTH had great college careers. and all will be playing behind Gilmore and JMac. Plus we have a long history of having one of the "no names" elevating their play.

BTW- I know CJones is an easy target for those who like to get on certain players, but I wouldn't be shocked if he has a nice bounce back year. Remember most of his issues his rookie year came on ST's and his 2nd year was lost due to injury. I'd like to see what he has as a CB in TC before I'd write him off as a "bust" He was very highly thought of as a CB coming out of Alabama. Too highly thought of, in fact, to dismiss after just one disappointing season as a rookie.

 

[long distance]

BTW- I know CJones is an easy target for those who like to get on certain players, but I wouldn't be shocked if he has a nice bounce back year. Remember most of his issues his rookie year came on ST's and his 2nd year was lost due to injury. I'd like to see what he has as a CB in TC before I'd write him off as a "bust" He was very highly thought of as a CB coming out of Alabama. Too highly thought of, in fact, to dismiss after just one disappointing season as a rookie.

I even took Clamp Clampington as sophomore binkie last yr - but the reality is he suffered in the slot for two whole preseasons and some reg. season games as rookie. JJ made the best progress of the 3 tried there (Cy,JJ,Rowe) and even he was lost on crossing routes.

Hence Dawson.

 

[HailHydra]

Compared to last year, we have JMac and Dawson instead of Butler and Coleman. I suppose, now that Butler is now considered a total flop, the current two are much stronger.

Last year, Butler was considered by most here as one of the best corners in the league (certainly much better than JMac). Coleman was our experienced (though not very good nickel back). Dawson is now considered much better. After all, 2nd round DB's have done so well here in their rookie years.
===================
So, no, I'm not celebrating yet. It seems, as always, that we are simply stating how great our current players are, compared to those who have gone.

Before the Super Bowl, there are very. very few here who would say that JMac was an upgrade to Butler. Is this downgrade outweighed by our #4 and #5 corners? by a lot?

Butler wasn't #1 corner worthy last season. JMac, on a terrible team, was.

 

[maineman209]

Butler wasn't #1 corner worthy last season. JMac, on a terrible team, was.

Butler has been a very good LCB. While he has covered the slot and the right boundary, he's not been particularly good in those roles - a couple outstanding plays here-and-there that folks remember, but .... That's a limitation in the variable coverage schemes that the Pats seem to be attempting to play.

He's also much better when the run-D is solid, which was obviously not the case with the Pats last season. He missed assignments and allowed big plays because he got caught looking into the backfield (a lot more often than the other DBs). And he was doing that all season long and into the playoffs. I think that may have been one of the reasons that he sat for the SB - the Eagles RPO probably would've thoroughly exploited that tendency and destroyed him (yes, the score might actually have been worse with Butler on the field).

The Titans' run-D was excellent last season, and, IIRC, their corners play "sides" more often than not, so Butler shouldn't feel compelled to "peek" so much, and his limited versatility away from the left boundary shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Betterthanmost]

What is Rowe's "weakness"? Downton Abbey? Laser pointers? Chubbies? Lemon meringue pie?

None of those, the guy can wrap up and tackle, but he can't mirror WRs. I thought Bulter occasionally suffered form double moves, but Rowe bits all the time. His anticipation is on par with Roberts, they hitch so hard that a small change of direction by whoever he is covering can cause huge gains. I don't know why he plays so slow. If you have the heart for it, here are all of Foles throws in the superbowl.

 

[maineman209]

None of those, the guy can wrap up and tackle, but he can't mirror WRs. I thought Bulter occasionally suffered form double moves, but Rowe bits all the time. His anticipation is on par with Roberts, they hitch so hard that a small change of direction by whoever he is covering can cause huge gains. I don't know why he plays so slow. If you have the heart for it, here are all of Foles throws in the superbowl.

Over the past two season with the Pats, Rowe has missed 15 games to various injuries, and been on the field for a grand total of 611 snaps during the regular season (avg. 305/season). I'd guess that it's fairly difficult to learn the job (as a relatively young player) - and gain confidence - if you're missing half the practice reps each season. Guys without that confidence tend to bite on misdirection - and then play slow, for fear of making another mistake.

That's not an excuse, just a possible explanation. It is what it is and Rowe will have to live with the consequences.

It's also another example of how the 2017 defense overall - from the DL, through the LBs and into the secondary - suffered from inexperience at key positions.