Welcome the New Pats DEFENSE: Aggressive, Exciting, Innovative

[Ring 6]

Now lets talk about the REAL difference between 1gap and 2gap.

In a 2 gap system, your front 7 are each assigned 2 gaps. That means every gap that could be run into has 2 players accountable to it. The players are controlling the blocker so that they are not taken out of the play to create large seems.

In a one gap system the DL are responsible for 1 gap. Therefore they try to run past the blocker into that gap. If the RDE is shading outside the T and the play is run inside the T he will invariably take himself out of the play. If the WDT gets penetration he may meet the ballcarrier just after the handoff. If he gets blocked (and yes, OL will not just watch him go into his gap) then you have created another seem.

You have a system with a one gap where if you beat your man, there is a bigger advantage to the D (say a loss of 2 instead of no gain) but if you are blocked you create a large seam that can result in long runs.

Anyone who has ever played football, take out your X and O and draw up a running play and blocking scheme of how you would run to a gap and how you would block it vs a defense with a front 7 player head up on each OL and assigned to 2 gaps as opposed to vs a one gap scheme with players lined up in the gaps, keeping in mind the advantage an OL has with a blocking angle.

Then come back and tell me all the dramatic differences in the 2 systems that are going to override a player winning a one on one battle or not.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Some people always hijack a thread. How do you use the ignore button again?

 

[Ring 6]

Some people always hijack a thread. How do you use the ignore button again?

Well, if you are referring to me making 4 posts today in this thread, you should recognize they are in response to posts directed specifically to me, and are on topic. I don't know what you mean by hijacking a thread when the thread stays on topic and includes back and forth discussion. Please clarify.

 

[rufcut]

Then come back and tell me all the dramatic differences in the 2 systems that are going to override a player winning a one on one battle or not.

Ultimately, that's the key to this discussion. The players have to make the plays, and some may be better suited to making one type of play than another.

I'm relatively new here, so I don't know how much discussion this has received, but isn't part of the problem getting good players for a scheme that everyone is using? The 3-4 used to be unusual. Now it's not, so there is more competition for players that fit the system well.

If players well-suited for 4-3 are more plentiful, isn't it time to switch?

But just understand that it's the players you have, not the scheme you use, that makes it successful.

 

[Ring 6]

Ultimately, that's the key to this discussion. The players have to make the plays, and some may be better suited to making one type of play than another.

I'm relatively new here, so I don't know how much discussion this has received, but isn't part of the problem getting good players for a scheme that everyone is using? The 3-4 used to be unusual. Now it's not, so there is more competition for players that fit the system well.

If players well-suited for 4-3 are more plentiful, isn't it time to switch?

But just understand that it's the players you have, not the scheme you use, that makes it successful.

Yes, I think its pretty widely accepted that 34 vs 43 has always been a matter of personell. Really there isnt that big a difference since a 34 OLB typially becomes a 43 DE and you end up with the same 7 players just aligned differently.
The real discussion is the 2gap BB has used every season up until now, and the 1gap he appears to be implementing now.

 

[TheSolderKing]

I cannot wait to see the 2 BULL MOOSES line up next to one another. I like what I see in our 4 man front and the cuts will be very difficult in the coming weeks. The varsity Defense will look mighty intimidating

 

[jmt57]

Andre Carter

A couple of good columns on Andre Carter:


Carter big on results, not stats - The Sun Chronicle Online

The veteran defensive end doesn't even register on the official game book issued by the league's statisticians following the Patriots' 31-14 victory over Tampa Bay, other than simply being noted for playing. But anyone that saw the game realized that Carter was the vanguard of an aggressive pass rush that kept the Buccaneers off balance as the Patriots soared to a 28-0 lead.

Pressure on the quarterback is a goal of this year's revamping of the defensive line, and Carter is making a strong bid to shed the losing ways of his former teams and contribute to a winner.

Carter is known for having a great first step and being able to unleash a burst of speed to get to the immediate vicinity of the quarterback. But he's also a solid run defender, which adds to his value as the Patriots strive to make the defensive line an insurmountable barrier.

"I think that when you play this game, it's always great to be multidimensional whether it's stopping the run or getting after the passer," he said. "That's something I've always prided myself at being able to do since I've started to play this sport. And I've just continued to build my game from then on."

"It was all about opportunity," he said. "When coach Belichick called me and said he knew my potential, I was all for it. It wasn't a question of 3-4 or 4-3 he just knew as far as my work ethic, as far as my talent and what I can contribute, I think those aspects played a big part in my coming here."

Carter said he's just starting to feel comfortable with the Patriots' defensive system. As his comfort level grows, his productivity should as well.

Carter ready to tackle veteran role - BostonHerald.com

What was no joke Thursday night in Tampa was the way Carter got after Josh Freeman, the Buccaneers’ highly mobile quarterback. It’s a good thing he was mobile because Lord knows what Carter might have done to him if he wasn’t.

The former No. 1 draft choice of the San Francisco 49ers had two quarterback hits, a hurry and forced tackle Donald Penn into two holding calls. Other than that, you barely noticed he was around.

“I wouldn’t say I played well,” Carter insisted. “I’m definitely my own worst critic, but it was just great to get a feel for a live-game situation. There are some things I need to improve on as far as run (defense) and definitely tackling. I was rusty on my tackling. Overall, it was great to put my hand in the dirt and do what I do best.”

Generally what that has been is get after the quarterback. Despite a down season last year in Washington that led to not being re-signed, Carter had 11½ sacks as recently as two years ago. And if Thursday night is any indication, he still has a nose for the passer and a desire to decapitate him.

“It was, like I tell everybody, a steppingstone, a starting point to where I need to be,” Carter said. “I still definitely have a long way to go and just perfecting my technique.

 

[rufcut]

Yes, I think its pretty widely accepted that 34 vs 43 has always been a matter of personell. Really there isnt that big a difference since a 34 OLB typially becomes a 43 DE and you end up with the same 7 players just aligned differently.
The real discussion is the 2gap BB has used every season up until now, and the 1gap he appears to be implementing now.

Agreed - 2-gap vs 1 gap is a bigger change. I generally don't think of 4-3 and 2 gap going together. Am I wrong about that?

Also, is 2gap really less aggressive or does it just change who has the responsibility to get upfield in the pass rush?

 

[nnmnmmnn]

Really there isnt that big a difference since a 34 OLB typially becomes a 43 DE and you end up with the same 7 players just aligned differently.

Didn't we discuss this the other day? It's not the same 7 players aligned differently.

They have replaced a 300+ pound 3-4 lineman with a 260 pound DE. You have one less guy on the field whose advantage is eating space and not being easily dominated by an o lineman. You have one more guy on the field whose advantage is in getting around an o lineman rather than engaging him.

Whether you expect to see this in Sept is another issue. But right now, everything in two preseason games and public practices has been not only a change in formation, but a change in personnel on the field also.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

More of this, please.

 

[rufcut]

Didn't we discuss this the other day? It's not the same 7 players aligned differently.

They have replaced a 300+ pound 3-4 lineman with a 260 pound DE. You have one less guy on the field whose advantage is eating space and not being easily dominated by an o lineman. You have one more guy on the field whose advantage is in getting around an o lineman rather than engaging him.

Whether you expect to see this in Sept is another issue. But right now, everything in two preseason games and public practices has been not only a change in formation, but a change in personnel on the field also.

So what are the prototypical sizes for the various roles?

In the 3-4 I think of Ted Washington at nose tackle. He was close to 400 lbs as I remember.

The DE's are also bigger in the 3-4, aren't they? I think of Seymour and Warren. Somewhere around 300 lbs apiece.

In the 4-3, the tackles are still big, but not necessarily as big as the prototypical nose tackle, and they have more respnsibility for getting up field, so they need to be more agile.

The defensive ends are considerably small, like 260 as you suggest.

How am I doing?

 

[jmt57]

Shaun Ellis

A few good columns on Shaun Ellis:


Patriots’ Ellis cleared to practice - The Boston Globe

“Just on names alone, [the defensive line] is good,’’ he said. “We have to go out and put the work in at practice and all of us get out there and play together. I think it’ll jell as good it can.

“Everybody knows when you start a defense, it starts up front, then it goes to the linebackers and secondary. We all have to work hand in hand. I think we have the potential to do great things with this defense.’’

Ellis adds to mix - BostonHerald.com

After watching his linemates dominate each of the past two preseason games up front — with seven sacks and 11 quarterback hits combined — Ellis hopes that’s the case now more than ever.

“It made me want to be a part of it that much more,” Ellis said. “We have a lot of guys that can stop the run and also get after the quarterback. A lot of talent. Just want to contribute the best way I can.”

The availability of the veteran who has eclipsed 10 sacks twice in his decorated career only emphasizes what the Patriots already know.

With 15 players considered defensive linemen in both 4-3 and 3-4 schemes, there is plenty of competition and plenty of depth. It’s a luxury for the Patriots, one Belichick worked hard to build after facing issues up front in each of the last two seasons.

Ellis glad to get back to work

On his return:
“It felt good, being on the field, around teammates, moving around a little bit,” he said.

On what he's done in the meantime:
"Lighting weights, running, extra conditioning. Just trying to get caught up to speed with these guys. They've been running a lot so I'm just trying to get caught up with them and get ready for the season."

On the team's depth at defensive line:
“I think that’s the key to the season; being fresh late in the year, when it gets playoff time. Rotating is definitely going to take the pressure off a lot of guys and keep us fresh throughout.”

 

[ALP]

is deadrick still on the roster?

Assessing layers along d-line - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston


he is missing from this list....

 

[Sciz]

Re: is deadrick still on the roster?

Pup 567890

 

[jmt57]

Re: is deadrick still on the roster?

Deaderick is on the Physically Unable to Perform list; he has yet to practice thus far. Others on PUP are DL Ron Brace and RB Kevin Faulk; DE Shaun Ellis is now off PUP. OL Marcus Cannon is still on the Non-Football Injury list.

For whatever reason, Reiss apparently decided to not include the guys on PUP in his assessment.

 

[patsfan13]

Re: is deadrick still on the roster?

My guess is that Deaderick and Brace remain on PUP, this will be insurance against another DL going on IR for the season. Most of the DLmen we cut will be snapped up by other teams, hate losing some serviceable young DLmen, but the group that Reiss outlined looks REAL good.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm loving the way the defense is looking so far, too. But let's see them do it in a regular season game before making a thread like this. As for the aggressive vs. passive argument, I think many people are forgetting that we had one of the more aggressive defenses in the NFL when we were winning Super Bowls some years ago. Belichick sent extra blitzers all of the time. On top of that, we sent more safety blitzes than anybody in the NFL over that time period.

 

[livinginthe past]

I've always though that a risk taking, negative play inducing defense would be the best counterpart for an offense as high powered as the Patriots.

Back in the days of Antowain Smith, it was a ball control, chain moving offense and its suited us to have a D that made teams grind their way down the field.

It doesn't behoove the Patriots to have their potent offense stood around on the sidelines while teams compile 15 play, 7 minute drives - even if we can limit the majority of them to 3 points or less.

I caught a little flak for a comment I made sometime back about moving to a more Colts oriented D (that doesn't mean we have to give up 300 yards rushing per game) - simply one that is best suited to counter an opponents passing game rather than shutting the run down.

If we give up the odd 'quick 7' but generate plenty of negaive plays along the way i'd take that over recent years.

 

[rufcut]

I'm loving the way the defense is looking so far, too. But let's see them do it in a regular season game before making a thread like this. As for the aggressive vs. passive argument, I think many people are forgetting that we had one of the more aggressive defenses in the NFL when we were winning Super Bowls some years ago. Belichick sent extra blitzers all of the time. On top of that, we sent more safety blitzes than anybody in the NFL over that time period.

Exactly what I have been trying to get at. The responsibility for getting to the QB changes, but that doesn't mean the 3-4 defenses was not aggressive. It just means that the down linemen were not the players responsible for getting to the QB.

 

[Deus Irae]

Read and react defenses worked well when our DBs were allowed to mug receivers down the field. It allowed our front seven to shed blocks and create pressure on passing downs. It's no coincidence that passing offenses have soared since they put the emphasis on the 5 yard bump rule a few years ago. It's no coincidence that Manning has torched our defenses over and over again since then. Belichick had to change. You can point to our championship years when we were allowed to mug recievers down the field as successful years for read and react defenses, but those days are gone.

Fans of read and react defenses may not like it, but this change is necessary. Put your blinders on, deny all you want, but this defense SO FAR looks different.

The team was winning 18 games with a read and react defense. You're confusing the current lack of talent in the 3-4 with alleged problems of the 2 gapping 3-4. Today's game has more need for getting to the QB on passing downs, and lately Belichick had been doing a piss poor job of bringing in players who could do that out of the 3-4. The result is a bunch of 4-3 pass rushers and a change in how the team will attack the QB.