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WR Kevin Walter - fits well on the Patriots IMO

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by IcyPatriot, Mar 3, 2010.

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  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wondering if anyone here thinks Bill takes a run at Walter. He's 6'3" / 215 Lbs. He's good underneath and he can go deep. He has good hands and most of all the guy can block and that is an integral part of our passing game. He runs precise routes and I think he'll fit in quickly with Brady and our passing scheme.

    I think he fits in great as a #2 here and also he's good enough to give Moss a rest for a series here and there and be the #1. I think we need someone who can take the play load off of Moss this year so he's healthier through the season. Also Walter will go over the middle which is something we need now with Welker out of action.

    I don't think we can continue to use Randy as both a decoy and deep threat for as many plays as the last 2 years. I think a 4/5 receiver set of Moss, Walter, Tate / Welker and Edelman will be very formidable. We can draft a receiver and keep Aiken around also to round it out.

    Would $2.5 > $3.0 million get it done???
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  2. bigfandan

    bigfandan Rookie

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    He would be a solid pick up for #3. 60 receiptions/yr is perfect for the #3 receiver.

    Ideally we want to target a stronger #2, Marshall or Boldin would be perfect.
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He would be our #3 when Welker is back to close to 100%. Assigning the slot guy as "the #3" doesn't work for us. We need a guy who's better than Gaffney as Welker will be working his way back and Moss is getting older.
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think we have the money to sign 2 of them. We already have a #2 in Welker in terms of salary. Belichick will not overload a position on the team in terms of salary. As long as we're paying Welker and Moss I don't believe we make a monetary splash on that unit. That's why i think Walter would be a great fit. He could be a #2 here until Welker returns and who knows ... Tate my end up being the #2 while waiting for Welker.

    Moss and Welker are almost $14 million on the cap.

    Aiken, Edleman and Tate makes it $16 million for the 5, I think Bill operates the team just as if there was a cap.

    I don't see Bill going over $19 million for the receiver unit ... $20 million tops but a fantasy.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  5. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    I think Walter would be great here, please BB, make it happen.
  6. PatFan1932

    PatFan1932 Rookie

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    Actually they could over pay the position this year (if uncapped) and they are expected to let Moss walk or come back next year (2011) with a much lower contract.
    In doing so (with Welker out maybe the year) you have four solid guys in Elderman, Moss, and two signings... Walter and Boldin.
    Then in 2011 you have Welker, Elderman, Walter, Boldin
  7. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Walter would be a fine addition and he costs no draft picks if I'm not mistaken. Sounds like the kind of solid mid price veteran that BB likes to add. I hope we get Walter or someone of his quality then acquire a young WR through the draft. That should be more than enough.
  8. bucky

    bucky Rookie

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    I like Walter, but I think it might make more sense to get a guy who can get deep. Chambers would be a good guy to bring in. I'd actually be up for getting both Walter and Chambers.

    In terms of cost, if Walter end up costing as much as Gaffney, I'd say we goofed because I'd rather have Gaffney.
  9. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why are you talking cap in an uncapped year. Moss may not even be here in 2011. It sounds like he won't.

    Bill will not operate this team like a capped year. He will operate this team with a self imposed cap and an eye towards a cap in the future. That means players like Moss who have a high current year salary and cap hit (if there was a cap) and in the last year of his deal and questionable of whether he will be resigned next year will not factor into the equation.

    Personally, I think it is premature to predict what the Pats will do in an uncapped year. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Peppers was a Patriot this time tomorrow and they signed Walter too. I would also not be shocked if all the Pats do is pick up value veterans like they did last offseason (Fred Taylor, Shawn Springs, etc.).
  10. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's what I've been saying. Sign everyone.
  11. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    yeah.....uncapped is still capped.....except for maybe the jets who will try to throw out all stops to win it all this year.......again
  12. Box_O_Rocks

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    Until Wilfork is locked up long term I'm hard pressed to think Peppers, and that's without even wondering what BB has in his tool kit to think he can keep him motivated. I'm ambivalent about Walter, preferring to find a possession kid in the draft. Chambers? And people complain about Aiken dropping passes.
  13. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    after walter, the pats can go out and get mike furrey, kevin curtis, brian finneran, and brandon stokley
  14. Rob0729

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    First a deal may already be done with Wilfork. It would be impossible for Wilfork to sign it before midnight tonight because of the 2009 salary cap.

    Second, I think it is BS with the notion that the Pats can't sign another high priced free agent until Wilfork is signed. What if Belichick thinks Peppers can be the second coming of Lawrence Taylor in the Pats defense (and what if he is right)? Do they pass on a game changing dominant pass rusher in a pass happy league just not to piss off Wilfork? Say it was DeMarcus Ware instead of Peppers. Would you pass on signing Ware because Wilfork isn't signed? We don't know how much Belichick values Peppers (if he really does at all). If he thinks he is a gamechanger and a must have, Wilfork is irrelevant to the discussion.

    The Pats value Wilfork, but they cannot tank the rest of the team needs because they are worried about the Wilfork negotiations. In today's NFL, an OLB who can get 15 plus sacks is more important than a run stuffing NT. Who knows if Peppers is that guy, but he might be.
  15. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    IMO a self imposed cap would likely be smaller than last years cap. The owners are trying to get control of player salaries and to take a few percentage points back in their pocket and thus making the cap lower. Whether they get their way or not still remains to be seen.

    But likely with this in mind a self imposed cap would be less than last years cap to be prepared. Good news is I heard we are like 30 mil or so under what last years cap was.

    Basically if next years cap is going to be less than last years cap why would you spend more this year than last? Sure you could front load and take advantage but why would ownership want to give away money it doesn't have too when the following year is just going to have to be accounted for?

    Kraft has spent to the cap each of the last few years but he has given out few long term deals in order to set himself up for when this is resolved and now when the resolution is so close why would he all the sudden blow it up because of uncap?

    IMO the day the CBA gets settled will be a great day for us because Kraft has been setting the team up for this and they are in great shape to spend once it is resolved. Anyone who goes crazy this year depending on whether the owners get their way or not could be cutting cap next year. Kraft is ready either way, if the owners get their way he is in good shape and if the cap doesn't go down then even more to spend.
  16. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think what it comes down to is if Kraft is willing to spend the money it takes to make the team a strong Super Bowl contender this year, or if it's business first. I think we'll learn alot about this team's priorities this year. I'm really not sure where they lay.

    That may be surprising to hear from me, but you know...
  17. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    it is a somewhat unusual year to make large long-term commitments......the wrong moves now could prevent you from making needed decisions 3 years down the road
  18. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The odds are that the cap will never shrink, but the growth will slow. Besides, (eventhough Miguel took down his future cap hits page) the Pats only have $50-60 million cap hit in 2011 right now.

    Right now, the Pats have about $65 million in real dollars and about $100 million in cap dollars for 2010. Both are very low for them as far as payroll and if there was a cap. Next year they will even have more flexibility with big contracts like Moss, Light, Wilfork, and Brady off of the books (although Brady and Wilfork look to be resigned at a higher price and Moss and Light might be back at lower price tags).

    Personally, I think an uncapped year is very beneficial to the Pats. They have a lot of money, a lot of room to spend to even get close to their usual spending and if there was actually a cap, and a very good capologist in Floyd Reese.
  19. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First, I think a lot of teams will be approaching this offseason with an internal cap and cautiousness.

    Second, I think Kraft will do what is best for the team. That means both trying to field a championship caliber team without destroying the team for the future. They are still what would be a Red Sox type of team financially. There are only two teams that make more money than the Pats. Plus the Pats have a lot of room to go to equal their low end payroll for the year.

    I don't expect Kraft to turn into Daniel Snyder, but he also won't be one of the owners who closes his wallet and decides to shed payroll to take advantage of no cap floor.
  20. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now that I look at my posts objectively over this offseason, I'm finding that I would prefer almost any free agent WR over what we have now.
  21. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A contract would be for the new League year, money's aren't due until it takes effect. Not an issue.

    Let's assume Peppers is being targeted for NE - Wilfork would be one of the veteran defensive leaders who introduces him to the Patriot way and rides herd on his questionable motivation. It makes more "locker room" sense to have an agreement with Vince in hand before throwing $14M/year at Peppers.

    I think Peppers could be the second coming of Lawrence Taylor, the question is does he want to be? If he's content to be Julius Peppers, same man, new location, then yes Wilfork makes a huge difference. Demarcus Ware doesn't have Peppers' concerns hanging over him, he'd come in guns blazing and wouldn't be a concern.

    I don't expect them to tank the rest of the team's needs, they franchised Vince to buy time for a meeting of the minds, getting into the bidding war for Julius just aggravates that process.

    That must be why Carolina is always in the playoff hunt? It's an odd coincidence, but there were no edge rushers franchised this offseason. There are many factors going into this, but saying an edge rusher is of more value then a NT in a 3-4 is disingenuous. Three 3-4 NTs were franchised and a fourth reached a new deal at the last minute to avoid the tag - that edge rusher is of no value if an offense only needs to hand the ball to a RB up the middle for 5 yds a pop (and Peppers first 15 sack season will be his first).

    If NE signs Peppers, he'll have to prove it to me - I don't need 10 sacks (his average in Carolina), I do need to see Charlie Hustle pressuring the QB and not quiting when the other team gangs up on him.
  22. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What are smoking? Chambers is the antithesis of a Patriots WR. Lousy hands. Poor route running. doesn't block well.

    Gaffney isn't an option. Walter is better than gaffney.
  23. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, you cannot sign a deal until the new year. You cannot sign a deal in the current year and not have it affect the cap. You can agree to a deal and make it official

    Can you offer $14 million a year to a player under contract? So the Pats wait until Wilfork is signed which could be weeks after Peppers signs a deal with another team and then go after him? How is that a good strategy. If the Pats really want Peppers, they have to sign him within the next few days or he will probany be gone.

    As for the lockerroom stuff, either his motivation issues are overblown or not. Peppers is or isn't going to change at 30 with or without Wilfork. It isn't

    Again I am throwing hypotheticals. You look to be taking them as facts.

    And I don't expect them to pass on a guy if they think he is a gamechanger just because of Wilfork. Wilfork is a Patriot no matter what this upcoming season. If they think Peppers is a gamechanger on defense, he might only be available for a few hours of free agency.

    They may very well not think he is a gamechanger and do not want him that much, but

    When did Carolina have a QB the quality of Brady. The Panthers are not a consistent playoff team because they don't have the offense.

    As for all the edge rushers franchised. Name all the edge rushers not RFAs where weren't franchised. The only one I can think of is Peppers and he was franchised twice before this. All the others were RFAs who got the highest tender like Dumerville and Merriman.

    Three 3-4 NTs were franchised because they couldn't be tendered as RFA. If Wilfork had five years of service instead of six, he would have been tendered the highest RFA tender rather than the franchise tag. Same with Casey Hampton. Your logic is faulty because the NTs hitting free agency were older than the edge rushers hitting free agency.

    Again, your argument seems to be more towards your opinion of the player, not Belichick's. Your opinion, my opinion, and everyone else on this board's opinion have no bearing on this decision. Belichick may agree with you or he may think Peppers is the second coming of LT. We have no idea at least until tomorrow.

    But I guarantee you if he believes the latter, Wilfork will have no bearing on whether he throws money at Peppers or not. I am guessing he doesn't think that highly of him, but he could think he might be the best pass rusher who fits the Pats system to be avaiable in free agency since he got here. That isn't too much of a stretch. I guess we will see pretty quickly because I think by the end of the weekend, he will be on someone's roster.

    BTW, my logic doesn't stop with just Peppers. He might feel that Dansby might be that franchise player gamechanger or someone else that he will throw megamoney at in the first week.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2010
  24. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    Why these guys in particular? Also, they're currently under contract which makes you comment even more peculiar.
  25. primetime

    primetime Rookie

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    Like Walter (and Welker and Edelman), they're white.

    Walter's much more like Gaffney than Welker or Edelman, though. He's a big strong guy with sure hands; think David Givens and you're not far off.
  26. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    I figured that's where 'tanked as usual' was going, but let's see if he has the guts to respond, I'm amazed that he would infer that BB would hire a player due to his race as opposed to what he can do on the field.
  27. primetime

    primetime Rookie

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    He was joking dude relax
  28. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Futures contracts for PSquaders and such are signed all the time with no impact on the cap, unless there is some specific language you can point to in the CBA I don't see how a legal contract for the 2010 NFL season starting March 5th and running through the 20xx season isn't valid and can be signed at anytime.

    How is this pertinent? We are not discussing offering Peppers anything before the new League year - we are discussing whether chasing him with a large $ contract while still trying to reach an agreement with Wilfork will have some impact on Wilfork's negotiations.

    Granted, which doesn't mean NE shouldn't be factoring in locker room balancing acts - BB has said as much in the past.

    Perhaps, peer pressure is a funny thing, especially with a change of scenery.

    Good grief, what are you complaining about here? We were both discussing the hypothetical aspects of two players projected into a similar situation for NE. Either Peppers requires peer pressure to fight through frustration or he doesn't, in comparison to Ware he's considered more of a diva, but has been known to respond to strong leadership from his peers. Ware on the hand doesn't seem to need any special handling - since he's not available we are back to discussing the hypothetical locker room implications of the two contract negotiations. Wilfork the team leader would indeed be more important to the process for one over the other, and a grumpy Wilfork frustrated over his negotiations would not be good.

    I dislike the idea of bringing Peppers into NE and "I" know he is a game changer, for better "and" for worse. I also know that Wilfork has changed games for us, he is a defensive Captain (for another few hours), and his willing leadership is a force for good in the locker room - I'm weighing the effect of acquiring an expensive game changing diva while trying to extend Vince long term. We obviously disagree as to how smoothly things will go if Peppers gets "his" asking price and Vince doesn't. To date, Vince has indicated he and NE are far apart, though the relative quiet right now gives me hope.

    Which doesn't effect the relative values of a 3-4 NT and an edge rusher, NE went to the playoffs without a premier edge rusher. Wilfork, still rehabbing a foot injury, got his clock cleaned one on one with Baltimore's Center and Ray Rice ran for an 83 yd TD. He made whatever adjustment he needed to make and played better from there, but NE didn't lose that game because the edge rush was inadequate - NT's are "essential" for a 3-4 and your valuing Vince below Julius on defense is a comparison with which I strongly disagree.

    Nice sophistry.

    We are discussing the relative merits of NT and edge rusher and the value teams place on them. This offseason teams expressed their valuation by placing the Franchise Tag on "free agent" NTs, which meant they valued those tackles to the tune of the average of their top five peers' salaries - pretty strong vote. I'm just as sure as you are those same teams would have done the same for strong edge rushers - the fun would come when a team has to decide between their NT and their edge rush. Which all means "both" are valued contributors to a team's success, or lack thereof.

    TBC matched Peppers in sack totals this season, do you expect him to be paid more than Wilfork? Peppers can attract top offers because of who he is and what he's done, oddly enough so can Wilfork, which is why NE tagged him. You may not consider Wilfork an elite talent, but he's clearly not one who can be easily replaced - that puts Peppers and Wilfork in the same conversation.

    Opinions are our bread and butter on this forum. I respectfully disagree with the idea that Wilfork's negotiations and any offer made to Peppers won't have some bearing on each other. If NE and the Wilfork camp have reached an agreement in general and are working through details, then it shouldn't be an issue, but if they are still far apart, paying out top dollar to bring in Peppers is not going to make the Wilfork camp happy.

    If BB thinks he can manage Peppers and get the impact he wants, more power to him. Based on what little I know through the media, Peppers reportedly responds better when his locker room environment creates high expectations and encourages him to fight through his frustrations on the field. I'm unimpressed with a guy who disappears the way he does, particularly when it appears his annual salary expectation is going to be in the same neighborhood as Tom Brady's - "my" expectation would then be to see Peppers play with the same intensity as Tom Brady. I don't think I am alone, not when we consider how fans reacted to the negative reports on Randy Moss last season.
  29. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    it was a joke......I have the guts to respond and if you don't like it, tough crap
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