Woody Paige on the Cassel/Cutler fiasco

[DW Toys]

The more I look at this year's draft, the more I think that the 19 pick really isn't that much better than the 34 pick. Obviously it is nicer, but one of the guys we're targeting at OLB will be there at 23. I'm not sure that the guys we want/need aren't going to fall right into our laps at our current position. I'm sure that factored in. If there were two OLBs in this draft, and Belichick wanted to get one of them desperately, I think things would have gone differently. But as it stands now there are literally 5 guys who have pro bowl potential, and presuming we don't want to draft 2 of them, I don't think we're in much different of a position now than we would have been with #s 19 and 23.

Cousin, good comments. I think finances had something to do with it. 19 vs. 34 and this years draft a 34 is supposed to have first round talent . I also think a landing spot for Vrabel was important to BB as far as loyalty and making sure he took care of Mike. Cutting him only reduced the CAP but sent a message to other players that if you treat BB right and perform as did Vrabel, he will go out of his way to help you in return. Vrables numbers were way high this year as per his production and his age. A cut would have not been surprising to other GMs but a shock to the Pats fans mostly. I think SP helped out BB with a decent exit for Mike Vrabel.
DW Toys

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Exactly. While nobody that I've heard directly says it, that crowd implies that:
1) Belichick had the #34 offer from Pioli
2) Belichick hadn't agreed to the offer yet
3) Belichick received another offer that included a pick somewhere between #12 and #20
4) Belichick weighed the various offers on the table
5) Belichick chose the worst offer
6) Belichick added Vrabel into the worst offer on the table

A preschooler can tell that 34 comes after 12. That must mean that Belichick had some ulterior motive for taking the worst offer. He intentionally hurt the Patriots to help his buddy in KC. Or he intentionally screwed over his "supposed" friend in Denver. Or he has some hidden agenda against the Detroit and/or TB organizations. And he uprooted one of his loyal team leaders just to further whatever devious game he was playing.

Yeah. That all makes much more sense than KC being the best offer on the table (including Vrabel) at the time he needed to fish or cut bait.

Nahh! That explanation sounds too logical and rational. And we all know (at least the national perception is) that this is a conspiracy and that Belichick fellow cannot be trusted. He is like Nixon and the there must be something more than the straighforward logic you put forth. (not to mention the further disclosure that Vrabel was due a $ 1 Million roster bonus Sunday March 1 which is why the deal had to be consumated Saturday latest to avoid NE paying this). So the time it would take for a 3 team trade including negotiating with Cassels agent on a long term deal would most likely not be done before Sunday (roster bonus due).

But lets just throw all logic into the wind as that just does not apply when BB is involved. He is too sneaky and can't be trusted to take a much better offer on the table

 

[Ring 6]

I don't think that there's any real question at this point, unless pretty much all the reporting is wrong. There were better deals available. I've said that I think BB did Pioli a solid because he could have waited another 1-2 days before pulling the trigger. Others have insisted that Belichick felt that the time crunch was so harsh that a deal had to be made immediately. Both of those scenarios seem much more realistic to me than "this was the best they could get", particularly given the follow up reporting that's been done on this issue.

Me, I'll always go with the "solid" scenario, since it's the one that best fits the facts of the situation.

I can not imagine that there is a person walking this Earth that Bill Belichick would do a 'solid' for at the expense of what is best for the Patriots.
I can envisoin no possiblity that BB would trade with Pioli for less than the most he could get from someone else to help out Pioli.
I would be negligent, foolhardy, a clear distortion of priority and grounds to fire him.
I have a hard time believing any coach or GM would do that and find it impossible that BB would.
What we are saying is that he had 2 choices, 1 better for the Patriots the other worse for the Patriots, and he chose to ignore his own teams best interest to help Pioli.

 

[Deus Irae]

Would he have had the cap room to sign Taylor and Baker if he had waited another 48 hours?

According to Peter King:

As free agency dawned, the Pats were $1.7-million under the cap, and they saved $1 million by restructuring Randy Moss' contract. That allowed them to sign running back Fred Taylor on Friday afternoon (two years, $8 million, approximately $2.3 in 2009 cap dollars).

The Taylor contract is a non-factor. Furthermore, as we've seen, "signed" and "actually, really signed" have been two different things. The approaching deadline was the bonus for Vrabel, and that could have been moved back by agreement of both parties, if necessary. The Patriots had time and decided not to use it.

As I've said repeatedly, I have no problem with what happened. I have never minded the "I'll owe you one" or "Thanks for the memories" deal in any sport, as long as it's understood by the parties involved.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

Don't know how many times this has to be pointed out......

He didn't need to fish or cut bait.

so he did his friend a "solid". what about his other friend ?

 

[Ring 6]

Don't know how many times this has to be pointed out......

He didn't need to fish or cut bait.

Apparently an awful lot of times, maybe then it will become true
The salary cap room was needed, and needed in a hurry. If your argument is it only would have required waiting one day, how would BB have known that?

 

[Deus Irae]

so he did his friend a "solid". what about his other friend ?

You mean the one that already had a quarterback?

 

[Deus Irae]

Apparently an awful lot of times, maybe then it will become true
The salary cap room was needed, and needed in a hurry. If your argument is it only would have required waiting one day, how would BB have known that?

The salary cap room wasn't needed. Again, the facts are there. Moss restructured and the money was available.

 

[Ring 6]

According to Peter King:



The Taylor contract is a non-factor. Furthermore, as we've seen, "signed" and "actually, really signed" have been two different things. The approaching deadline was the bonus for Vrabel, and that could have been moved back by agreement of both parties, if necessary. The Patriots had time and decided not to use it.

As I've said repeatedly, I have no problem with what happened. I have never minded the "I'll owe you one" or "Thanks for the memories" deal in any sport, as long as it's understood by the parties involved.

So having 400k of cap room after signing Taylor is a good situation to be in? You also do not account for baker. We have also signed a safety and 2 corners, but that could have waited too I guess?

What part of being out of cap room and needing to free it up to operate do you not understand.

And why would Vrabel agree to move back his bonus? I have never heard of a player agreeing to that.

 

[Ring 6]

The salary cap room wasn't needed. Again, the facts are there. Moss restructured and the money was available.

The facts are we could have signed one player.
The cap room wasn't needed to sit on our hands, it was needed to sign players, which we have done.

You are really stretching to back up your opinion that BB purposely screwed his employer.

 

[BelichickFan]

The salary cap room wasn't needed. Again, the facts are there. Moss restructured and the money was available.

They also had a $4M per year offer to Bodden at the time and were, no doubt, making other offers or considering doing so. Make no mistake, they needed to clear out that money ASAP. Or we could still be waiting for the best Cassel deal and have no Springs and no Bodden.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

You mean the one that already had a quarterback?

look where he is now.

 

[Deus Irae]

So having 400k of cap room after signing Taylor is a good situation to be in? You also do not account for baker. We have also signed a safety and 2 corners, but that could have waited too I guess?

Were they all signed before that roster bonus came due? It seems to me that the person here who's pulling a "not account" is you.

What part of being out of cap room and needing to free it up to operate do you not understand.

What part of "Moss restructured and the roster bonus wasn't due for days" do you not understand?

And why would Vrabel agree to move back his bonus? I have never heard of a player agreeing to that.

It's not as if the Culpepper situation happened 40 years ago, or something. It happened less than a month ago. Is your memory going on you?

 

[Deus Irae]

look where he is now.

Now does not equal then.

 

[Metaphors]

Don't know how many times this has to be pointed out......

He didn't need to fish or cut bait.

I understand what you are saying. I would actually agree with you if you could say there was a 100% chance that a better offer would be on the table if Belichick waited. Or that there was a 100% chance that the KC offer would still be on the table if Belichick told them they needed to wait.

You can't do that. Even a slight chance the Pats could be stuck with Cassel's cap hit was not acceptable. That is the point you continue to either miss or ignore.

 

[Deus Irae]

They also had a $4M per year offer to Bodden at the time and were, no doubt, making other offers or considering doing so. Make no mistake, they needed to clear out that money ASAP. Or we could still be waiting for the best Cassel deal and have no Springs and no Bodden.

The trade with KC was done before 3:00 pm on the first day of free agency, pending physicals. We know this because Vrabel was in Kansas City getting his physical at 2:30 pm on that day. Springs was signed just a couple of days ago.

People are getting all screwed up over the timeline.

 

[BelichickFan]

You can't do that. Even a slight chance the Pats could be stuck with Cassel's cap hit was not acceptable. That is the point you continue to either miss or ignore.

Even if you assume they could trade Cassel for the #34 pick, at worst, by the draft - you have lost FA. There's no Springs and no Bodden without huge re-dos of contracts. I'd take #34, Springs and Bodden over, say, #20. We knew this going in, Cassel had a $15M bill tagged to him and we had to move quickly. Too bad he didn't have a year left - for sure - but it was what it was and we got the #34 pick out of him and didn't get tied up and lose FA while dithering around.

Regarding Vrabel, I would have held onto him myself. But that's the decision they made, to move on and get younger.

 

[Ring 6]

They also had a $4M per year offer to Bodden at the time and were, no doubt, making other offers or considering doing so. Make no mistake, they needed to clear out that money ASAP. Or we could still be waiting for the best Cassel deal and have no Springs and no Bodden.

Stop saying things that conflict with the conclusion that BB is scummy and decided to hurt the Patriots and help Pioli.

 

[Deus Irae]

I understand what you are saying. I would actually agree with you if you could say there was a 100% chance that a better offer would be on the table if Belichick waited. Or that there was a 100% chance that the KC offer would still be on the table if Belichick told them they needed to wait.

You can't do that. Even a slight chance the Pats could be stuck with Cassel's cap hit was not acceptable. That is the point you continue to either miss or ignore.

I'm not ignoring any of it. I'm pretty sure that I've followed this more closely than anyone else on this board, as a matter of fact. The reality is that people are speculating all kinds of "but this... " stuff in order to try justifying their positions even before they get to the final reasoning. My point has no need for any speculation other than the final line of reasoning.

"But what if a team with an enormous amount of cap space that had Thigpen as its starting quarterback changed its mind about upgrading that spot for just a 2nd round pick in less than an additional 36 hours?"

Seriously, that's what this situation has people clinging to.

 

[BelichickFan]

The trade with KC was done before 3:00 pm on the first day of free agency, pending physicals. We know this because Vrabel was in Kansas City getting his physical at 2:30 pm on that day. Springs was signed just a couple of days ago.

People are getting all screwed up over the timeline.

They had the 4 year offer out to Bodden before FA even started. When Springs signed (and when he agreed which was more than a few days ago) is irrelevant, they couldn't go around offering contracts then say "well, we'll sign it when we trade Cassel, maybe in April. They didn't have the money to go shopping if they kept Cassel. They went shopping and came back with some goodies. You have no idea if Cassel would still be on the roster if they were holding out for more - no idea at all.