Woody Paige on the Cassel/Cutler fiasco

[Ring 6]

Oh, for crying out loud. The analogy is ridiculous because selling off the stadium is a piss poor analogy to trading a player. As for the rest, you've just lost your mind. People sell things at a lower than highest possible re-sale amount all the time, and for various reasons which don't need to include theft, negligence or being a scumbag.

IT is the perfect analogy. Selling a resource for value. You dont like the analogy because it is so good.
But, you are clear on your stance.
You believe BB 'sold' Cassel for less than he could have because he felt more obligated to help a friend than to get full value and not help a friend.
For all of your efforts to disagree with every statement everyone has made, this part is crysal clear.
I of course, totally disagree.

All that is left is to determine whether your opinion is correct, which therefore proves BB disregarded the best interest of the team, and his job, or I am correct and he did the best he could.

 

[Ring 6]

"The semantics of his posts" was what was being quoted. "The semantics of his posts" was referring to part of the timeline. If you can't figure that out, there's no sense continuing with this particular avenue of discussion.

As for the "immense urgency", what day and time did BB tell you this and, when he did, what were his given reasons?

I don't need BB to explain to me why there is immense urgency to have cap room to sign free agents while other teams are trying to sign them as well. I don't need BB to show me his calculator that indicates we didn't have cap room to sign the players we wanted, because its public knowledge.

You are not stupid, so you must be reaching at straws to protect this feeling that BB screwed the Pats on the deal. There is absolutely no way that you can truthfully think that having the cap room to sign 1 player didn't create urgency for a team that has signed 5 since.
DO you think it would have been smarter to still be negotiating and calling to make sure all 31 teams really, really werent interested up til today when all the FAs we wanted would have signed elsewhere?

 

[Ring 6]

Ok, quick question...... if the deal waits 24 hours, what disaster happens?

That is an ignorant question. If you wait 24 hours, why not wait 24 more, then 24 more, then 24 more.
You are all wrapped up in the bs conspiracy theory that there were these great offers as soon as the deal was announced. NOne have been truly confirmed, even as of today people are saying we were only getting the 2nd in the Denver deal.
BB needed to make a trade. There was one offer on the table. He needed the cap space to sign FA. You seem to want him to be indecisive and wait around as long as it takes to get more offers that may not be coming.
How would you feel if we held out until draft day, got a first, but had 15 mill excess cap moeny because there were no good FAs left to sign?

 

[Zeus]

Ok, quick question...... if the deal waits 24 hours, what disaster happens?

This thread is like an automobile accident - I know I shouldn't look but my morbid curiousity has gotten the best of me.

I do confess to having lost track of your argument. Are you saying that Belichick had better offers on the table and rejected them as a favor to Pioli? If so, I'll forward you an application to the Jay Mariotti Fan Club. If accepted, you would be the second member (Jay himself being the other).

Or are you saying that Belichick should have waited longer to pull the trigger? Well, that is certainly more plausible and you may well be correct - in hindsight. Still, I'm not sure why you dismiss the possibility that the Patriots had set some sort of internal deadline for any number of reasons, related to signing/extending their own players or recruiting other free agents.

The overwhelming likelihood is that the Patriots got market value for Cassel. Said value was diminished by the MC's contract, the logjam at QB and the salary cap situation in New England. Cassel was on the market for quite some time and 31 teams had the opportunity to bid. Maybe another day or two would have changed the outcome, but I don't know that for a fact and neither do you.

In any event, there is only one person who knows all of the information that was available to Belichick at the time he made the decision - and that is Bill himself. Those who wish to criticize or second guess do so without access to all of that information. That's okay, but I choose to believe that Bill handled this the same way he's handled everything else since he's been here - with his team's best interests at heart.

 

[Ring 6]

This thread is like an automobile accident - I know I shouldn't look but my morbid curiousity has gotten the best of me.

I do confess to having lost track of your argument. Are you saying that Belichick had better offers on the table and rejected them as a favor to Pioli? If so, I'll forward you an application to the Jay Mariotti Fan Club. If accepted, you would be the second member (Jay himself being the other).

Or are you saying that Belichick should have waited longer to pull the trigger? Well, that is certainly more plausible and you may well be correct - in hindsight. Still, I'm not sure why you dismiss the possibility that the Patriots had set some sort of internal deadline for any number of reasons, related to signing/extending their own players or recruiting other free agents.

The overwhelming likelihood is that the Patriots got market value for Cassel. Said value was diminished by the MC's contract, the logjam at QB and the salary cap situation in New England. Cassel was on the market for quite some time and 31 teams had the opportunity to bid. Maybe another day or two would have changed the outcome, but I don't know that for a fact and neither do you.

In any event, there is only one person who knows all of the information that was available to Belichick at the time he made the decision - and that is Bill himself. Those who wish to criticize or second guess do so without access to all of that information. That's okay, but I choose to believe that Bill handled this the same way he's handled everything else since he's been here - with his team's best interests at heart.

His argument is that BB 'did Pioli a solid' by trading him Cassel instead of trading Cassel elsewhere for more.

 

[captain stone]

I can not imagine that there is a person walking this Earth that Bill Belichick would do a 'solid' for at the expense of what is best for the Patriots.
I can envisoin no possiblity that BB would trade with Pioli for less than the most he could get from someone else to help out Pioli.
I would be negligent, foolhardy, a clear distortion of priority and grounds to fire him.
I have a hard time believing any coach or GM would do that and find it impossible that BB would.
What we are saying is that he had 2 choices, 1 better for the Patriots the other worse for the Patriots, and he chose to ignore his own teams best interest to help Pioli.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what happened.

Think about it: would Little Bill have made that trade to that team for that return if Scotty P were not in KC?

Or is it because his personnel skills are continuing to erode? It's either one or the other.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

:violent: :ugh: :rip:

I now have such a headache from trying to understand the argument between Deus, and Andy. Just so I understand everything. This whole argument started because of something the media is reporting. This is the same media, we as Pats fans, have chosen to ignore because they are incapable of reporting anything truthful when it comes to our team.

Did I miss the memo? Are we really believing anything bspn is telling us?

Woody f'n Paige???? R U KIDDIN ME?

Deus, Andy. Go to your rooms, and think about this. When you're ready, come out, and shake hands.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Deus, Andy. Go to your rooms, and think about this. When you're ready, come out, and shake hands.

Actually, Andy has the right of it. Most of his argument is very solid, his analogies are pretty good, and the conclusion he comes to is both valid and true. He's just gotta realize that it's not worth "discussing" something with someone who is more interested in "being right" than the actual truth of the matter. It took me much longer to learn this than it should have.

Deus. Well, I think his own signature says it better than I ever could.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Actually, Andy has the right of it. Most of his argument is very solid, his analogies are pretty good, and the conclusion he comes to is both valid and true. He's just gotta realize that it's not worth "discussing" something with someone who is more interested in "being right" than the actual truth of the matter. It took me much longer to learn this than it should have.

Deus. Well, I think his own signature says it better than I ever could.

I agree with ya, i just don't like seeing two long time posters arguing to no end.lol.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

It's all conjecture, there's a wider train of thought that says Denver only offered their #2 and the picks from TB would go to Denver as they were trading what most people consider to be the better QB. That makes sense to me - McDaniels connection or not I can't see Denver trading Cutler for Cassel straight up.

That makes sense, but we won't listen. It's the silly season between the first big headline FA signings and the Draft. We have to occupy ourselves with something Patriots-related, now that Scott, Josh and Matt are gone, and Tommy says his knee is coming along and he's hitched to Giselle (Hey, did you hear they're getting divorced? Spread it around! Maybe we can start a thread.).

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Ok, quick question...... if the deal waits 24 hours, what disaster happens?

good point. As I pick over the carcass of this very dead horse, I am forced to agree that I think that is the one legitimate question that can be put to BB about it. He will argue back, no doubt, that the risk of ending up with less was even greater if the KC deal fell through and they couldn't consummate a three way with Tampa and Denver. But, I still think that leaves it a fair, and respectful, question.

 

[bobbybigdrum]

yeah, it sounds like the deal became way too convoluted for BB's liking. I always have to laugh when I hear that the Pats could have gotten way more than they did for cassel. Does anyone really think that BB is the type to do favors for other people at the expense of this team. If you look at his track record, it seems to me his mo has been to try and gain every possible edge for this team (spygate???).

Also the deals that page reffered to may have taken too long to complete, thus leaving the pats in a tough situation in the free agency market. Who knows who we would have been able to sign/re-sign had another more inticate and time consuming deal unfolded.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

How about this summation:

Pats have the #34 pick in a deep draft courtesy of a trade of a 7th round pick.

Pats are not stuck with a huge $15 million franchise tender

Pats completed the deal and had max freedom and flexibility for free agency.

 

[patfanken]

Ok, quick question...... if the deal waits 24 hours, what disaster happens?

Quick answer - The fact is that, as I stated before, it was never a matter of JUST 24 hours. Even if BB waited 24 more hours and the Denver/TB deal was became more solidified; the mere logisics of getting BOTH Cutler and Cassel signed to LT deals, and the details of the compensation package to the Pats and Denver would have taken much longer than 24 hours. Now you are talking about a WEEK (at least) to get all the paperwork, contracts and details finalized and presented to league office. THAT would have been a killer to the rest of the Pats off season.

AND to what end, getting a draft pick a few players higher than what they have now. IIRC the Pats have 12 picks in the draft. Personally I think thats too many given the team they have now. I love having 6 in the top 100, but can you see a scenerio where more than 5 rookies make this team?

 

[Ring 6]

good point. As I pick over the carcass of this very dead horse, I am forced to agree that I think that is the one legitimate question that can be put to BB about it. He will argue back, no doubt, that the risk of ending up with less was even greater if the KC deal fell through and they couldn't consummate a three way with Tampa and Denver. But, I still think that leaves it a fair, and respectful, question.

But there wasnt a deal to consummate with Tampa and Denver. At the time BB agreed to trade Cassel to KC, Tampa and Denver were not interested. AFTER the trade was put in, supposedly, Tampa and Denver indicated interest.
The choice was accept or reject the KC offer. It wasn't this offer or the other.
BBs only other options were to wait around hoping someone new jumped in that had not indicated interest yet, or try to get more from KC.
I'm pretty confident he wasnt getting more from KC, so it was close the deal or decide to pass. He couldn't pass because he needed the cap room to sign FAs

 

[Ring 6]

Quick answer - The fact is that, as I stated before, it was never a matter of JUST 24 hours. Even if BB waited 24 more hours and the Denver/TB deal was became more solidified; the mere logisics of getting BOTH Cutler and Cassel signed to LT deals, and the details of the compensation package to the Pats and Denver would have taken much longer than 24 hours. Now you are talking about a WEEK (at least) to get all the paperwork, contracts and details finalized and presented to league office. THAT would have been a killer to the rest of the Pats off season.

AND to what end, getting a draft pick a few players higher than what they have now. IIRC the Pats have 12 picks in the draft. Personally I think thats too many given the team they have now. I love having 6 in the top 100, but can you see a scenerio where more than 5 rookies make this team?

Also, waiting 24 hours is a hindsight view. When 24 hours after the deal is agreed to someone comes up with another offer that has nothing to do with the decision that was made.
In other words if you have a decision to make today and something bizarre happens that would change it tomorrow, you had no idea that things would change in 24 hours. For example if I buy living room furniture today, then find out tomorrow that a furniture company is going out of business and I can get the same stuff at half price, you can't say I should have waited 24 hours, because there was no way of knowing that would happen. ITs the same with a trade offer that has not yet been made. When in retrospect it happened 24 hours later (Theoretically) at the point of the decision, it didn't exist and wasnt even in negotiation.