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Why Chris Long???

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by iapatsfan, Apr 21, 2008.

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  1. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    Why in the world do so many people on this board want Chris Long? Of all of the projected top picks, he is the absolute worse pick for us. Where is he going to play in a 3-4? Not mobile or fast enough for LB, and not stout enough for D-Line. The Pats D needs to get faster. I don't know why everyone doesn't see this. If Chris Long is there at 7, I would rather the Pats take Keith Rivers. If Chris Long is taken by a 3-4 team, he will be a flop along the lines of Courtney Brown and Jonathan Sullivan. He was a great college player with a famous father. He will never be an NFL stud!
  2. mcsully

    mcsully Rookie

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    His forty wasn't great but his cone and short distance sprints were fast.. He has a non stop motor that loves football and studies the game.. His ceiling might not be the highest, but his floor is high.. He's solid!
  3. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    Where does he play? Don't we have enough slow linebackers??? I could care less about his "non-stop motor".
  4. SamBamsFan

    SamBamsFan Rookie

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    2.7 20 yd vs 2.65, 1.53 10 yd. vs 1.56, 10'4 long jump vs 10'7", 4.21 shuttle vs 4.38, 7.02 cone vs ????. Hardly slow. Oh, and he has 31 pounds on Rivers (who can't seem to make any plays behind the line of scrimmage.
  5. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    Entire career playing LB vs. Never played a down at LB. Nothing like another Dan Klecko experiment at pick #7.
  6. SamBamsFan

    SamBamsFan Rookie

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    Yeah, send me a letter when Rivers makes a significant play will you?
  7. JoePats

    JoePats Rookie

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    Please tell me you're not comparing Chris Long to Dan Klecko. Go watch the agility drills from the combine, Chris Long compared to the others. They're probably on nfl.com somewhere. Long is just as quick if not quicker, and he's more balanced than everyone else. It was quite a performance. In fact there's a thread about it on here from about 2 months ago.
  8. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

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    Really? Because intelligence and a non-stop motor seem to be the things that separate guys like Vrabel, Bruschi, and AD - all who were a little too big and slow to be dominant LB's until they hit our system, from the Chad Browns and Monty Beisels of the world...this kid is smart, runs hard on every play, is agile, and is a big dude. One might recall a guy named McGinest who was a little too big and slow to be a prototypical OLB in a (albeit hybrid for much of his time) 3-4 but still managed to make the big plays that helped us win at least 2 AFCCGs as my memory serves. Again, a guy with brains, an all day motor, and the right body for it. Where you don't see this is beyond me. I may not have the "BradyToMoss" on DRC man-crush on him; I acknowledge his potential to be the next Klecko too, but at least coming from Groh's system, IF we decide he's the guy for us (which we should have ample info to consider), I'm excited for what his potential as a swing OLB, Pash Rusher, Cover Guy (dare I even hope AD-esque OLB/ILB alternater) could be...
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2008
  9. JoePats

    JoePats Rookie

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    Good post...Besides, if it were all measurables, then drafting would be easy.
  10. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    Be honest. Chris Long covering RBs and TEs is a joke, and anybody who has seen him play knows this. This guy is not an NFL LB. He is a 4-3 DE, nothing more.
  11. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

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    Be honest, Willie McGiniest covering RBs and TEs is a joke, and anybody who has seen him play knows this. This guy is not an NFL LB. He is a 4-3 DE, nothing more.

    Be honest, Mike Vrabel covering RBs and TEs is a joke, and anybody who has seen him play knows this. This guy is not an NFL LB. He is a 4-3 Pass Rushing Specialist DE, nothing more.

    Be honest, Adalius Thomas covering WRs and Slot Receivers is a joke, and anybody who has seen him play knows this. This guy is not an NFL LB/DE/S. He is a DT, nothing more.

    Should I go on, 'cause it's actually kinda fun! :singing:
  12. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    The best and, in my opinion, most accurate comparison is Kyle Vandenbosh. Would you trade the #7 pick for Kyle Vandenbosh? Where would he play on the Pats? Chris Long is an overachiever who is not a good fit for the Pats.
  13. RussFrancis

    RussFrancis Rookie

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    The draft is filled with uncertainties. Having said that, there are 2 things Im absolutely certain of. 1- Chris Long will NEVER fall to 7. 2- NE will NEVER trade up to overpay for any of these guys. I was doubting that 2nd point for a while, but at this stage, I couldnt feel any more certain.

    For my money, I hope Chris Long goes to the Rams, a 4-3 team that we'll rarely ever face. Because the kid is more of a natural Dend than anything, and Id love to see him just getting after the passer. NOT turn and cover. Sure, he could do it. Just not what he should do. He's got the frame of a 285lber. He has really no business playing LB.
  14. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    All 3 of these guys played without their hand on the ground before coming to the Pats. Adalius at Baltimore, Vrabel at Pitt, Willie at USC. Like I said before, why would we take a guy at 7 to play LB when he has never played LB in his career?
  15. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

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    How do you know either of these things? Why, specifically, is Kyle Vandenbosh (sp?) the most apt comparison in your opinion? BB values intelligence, a love for the game (and the schemes that go with it), and versatility (hard to argue that a kid with this agility and size isn't versatile no matter who you compare him to). More importantly, how the heck can you say he is or isn't a good fit? I'm confident our coach and FO will make that decision, but I don't see anything about him that suggests he isn't based on the 2 posts you've shrugged off where I cited more than a couple examples of other players IN OUR OWN SYSTEM who have been able to do the same thing. Again, I'm not saying this kid is an HoF lock by any means, but to say he's "not a fit" is just foolish, and to dismiss his potential is shortsighted to put it mildly. I jumped to a similar conclusion about the Jared Allen trade rumors mistakenly because of his size and my [dumb] misconceptions about him...after reading a bit more and studying the player further, I realized that I still thought the price would be too high (for Allen) but the motor and immeasurables were hard to argue with in a system that has made HYBRID OLB a whole new NFL player Genre.
  16. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Or Bruschi or Vrabel or Colvin.

    That is what is wrong with your idea. You think it is a bad thing to make a DE into a LB. BB and every other 3-4 coach looks for DEs to make into LBs.
  17. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Because that's where NFL 3-4 LBs come from.

    College DEs.
  18. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    You're saying he has versatility becasue he has agility and size??? I already responded to your mention of players IN OUR OWN SYSTEM. He has only played DE - never LB. Where is the "versatility"?
  19. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    What do you guys not get about this? All of the pats players played LB at some point in college or the NFL before coming to NE. Colvin-Chicago, Tedy-AZ, Adalius-Baltimore, Vrabel-Pitt, Willie-USC. Chris Long admitted he has never played LB his football playing career.

    Also, 4-3 DEs are converted to 3-4 LBs. Not 3-4 DEs like Chris Long. Look it up. 4-3 DEs are quicker more mobile players that are more suited to the role of 3-4 LB. Chris Long is NOT a LB>
  20. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

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    Wherever BB wants him. Think Willie McGinest.

    Long's head coach, Al Groh, publicly stated that Long can succeed as a DE/OLB. And considering that Groh was the Pats LB coach sent to work out McGinest prior to drafting him, I think I trust his opinion.

    In addition, Long may have the best hands and technique in the draft. Combined with a relentless motor, these are the qualities he'll be using to defeat NFL OTs. Running a fast 40 won't get you to the QB unless you also have a bag of tricks.

    I see a D that needs to impact the games more. Speed alone won't get it done.
  21. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    '

    Groh would say anything. He's trying to get his guy drafted #1 by Miami where he would have to play LB. Speed alone will not get it done, but we need it nonetheless.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2008
  22. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

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    Sorry, Thomas was a DE in college, not a hand up LB, and McGinest was a weak side DE, not LB at USC as well. Vrabel was also a DE at OSU. None of them played more than a snap or two with their hand up in college so your point is absolutely moot. We're not talking about guys who are already in the NFL, we're talking about a guy coming to the NFL from college. And if you took the time to do a little homework, you would see Long's measurables are comparable to ALL of these guys (heavier AND a bit faster than Vrabel), and his motor is unquestionable. Want to try again chief?
  23. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

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    OK, how many of us need to slap you in the face with this? NONE OF THEM PLAYED LB UNTIL THEY GOT TO THE NFL. What the hell aren't you getting about this? Every great OLB we've had in the past 15 years has been a college DE who we transitioned. I swear it's futile, for whatever retarded reason, you don't want to hear us.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  24. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    Please read the post before you respond. It makes you look stupid when you don't. I said "prior to coming to the Pats". That includes Adalius in Baltimore and Vrabel in Pitt. Willie even stated while he was with the Pats that he was asked to play LB more than he would have liked in college. Please fully read the post and do a little research before you respond. You sound like an idiot when you don't.

    Also, you're comparing guys that were 4-3 DEs in college vs Long, who was a 3-4 DE. Nice try. 4-3 DE's are asked to some things that are similar to 3-4 LBs, like drop into coverage. 3-4 DE is a totally different position. See Seymour and Warren vs. Freeney, Schoebel, Jared Allen, etc... PLease come up with one college 3-4 DE who made the conversion befre you continue to make your point.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2008
  25. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

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    I read your post chief, it has ZERO relevance...trying to skate on a technicality doesn't make you look smart or better informed than me, though I appreciate your attempt to push that angle. We are talking about drafting a guy, not signing a free agent, so where they played in the NFL prior to coming to the Pats has virtually zero relevance (outside of BB's penchant for wanting experience at the position, which I will grant, but that has no relevance as to whether a guy with comparable body style, agility measurables, and motor can transition AS THE OTHERS MENTIONED DID, as they go from college to the Pros). Long is NOT a prototypical 3-4 DE and you know it, he was thrust into that role in a system and BECAUSE OF HIS VERSATILITY AND PRODUCTIVITY, not because of his body type or his "typical" fit into a D (see Seymore and Warren vs. Freeney, Schoebel, Allen, LONG et al smarta$$). None of the 3 were LBs coming out of college, and ALL OF THE 3 had comparable stats to Long in virtually every category (granted AD had ludicrous 40 times so he doesn't quite compare as evenly, but the weight difference of Vrabel vs. his lack of speed might even it out in the "general" comparison). Don't resort to trying make ridiculous insinuations that I should "research" more before I post, just because I don't feel the need to rehash every moot point doesn't mean you're right.
  26. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    Their NFL experience is relevant sorry to say. You can see how they play the position before you risk sigining them, or in this case, drafting them with the 7th pick in the draft. You're talking to me about relevance?? You've stated he's versatile because he had a decent 40 time and he's big. Nice. The fact that he played DE in a 3-4 is relevant sorry to say. What he was asked to do is not even close to what 3-4 LBs do. But hey, let's just use a top 10 pick on a conversion project.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2008
  27. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

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    You're absolutely right, we should trade all our high draft picks for proven veterans, that way we won't have to take a chance on someone who might be really good. Except our coach and their coach have a history, so if their coach tells our coach "hey, coach, this kid reminds me of X", by your logic we should let someone else draft him, use him for 4-6 years, then pay him lots of money as a free agent IF we can afford him after he proves himself. Way to go out on a limb bud. :rolleyes:

    The NFL experience is only relevant if you're talking about another FA - otherwise by your logic we shouldn't have drafted Willie (oh, wait, your 4-3 technicality excuse will allow you to get out of this one), Baltimore shouldn't have drafted AD (see above), etc. (I'm sure you'll talk about draft position, but who wouldn't give up a #7 for AD or Willie in his prime) When you can look at film, look at pro days, and talk to a guy who has been around him for 4 years whose opinion you trust, then we could say that he might transition beautifully and/or be a very valuable player if he works out. Again, I reiterate, I'm not saying he's the guy we HAVE to draft, but I'm also not naive and/or arrogant enough to suggest "Chris Long is an overachiever who is not a good fit for the Pats." In my opinion, he has the capability to be a very interesting pick at #7 IF he sticks around that long. Will he be great? I have no idea. Will we draft him even if he is around? Again, I have no idea. The only thing I DO know is that you don't either, but I'm not such a douchebag that I'll state my own egotistical, arrogant, uninformed opinion as absolute fact, you, on the other hand, will.
  28. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

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    At worst, if he's a bust, Long would be the next Jarvis Green for us, playing DE on third down. I would be shocked.

    At best, when he makes the transition, he's a bigger, more powerful Mike Vrabel. Al Groh has explicitly made the comparison between Long and Vrabel. And he's young and he'll be a locker room hero. I think he looks like McGinest, on the field: agile, big, long limbs. We haven't had an elephant in the defense since we lost Willie. He'll make an impact almost immediately.

    A #7 pick MUST earn a spot as a team captain within two or three years, in the same way Seymour was. There's no other way to make the cap commitment work. Long has that potential for us, more than anyone else in the entire draft.
  29. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    Speaking as someone who has actually seen some UVA games (not just the 15 sec LB clip from the combine), CLong would have a tough transition to OLB for the Pats. Some observations:

    • CLong has short-area quickness but not straight line pursuit speed.
    • CLong has excellent balance, functional strength and hand technique.
    • CLong excels at penetrating the OL but is an unknown at engaging and moving blockers (wasn't asked to do it).
    • CLong does not have any pass rush moves to speak of.
    • CLong is instinctive moving forward, locating the play without wasted motion or false steps.
    • CLong is much slower moving laterally and does not change direction well.
    • The next time CLong backpedals in a game will be the first time.

    Based on his skill set, he seems like a much more natural fit at ILB for the Pats. He would still have a lot of work to do on his lateral movement and cover skills, but that is nothing compared to what he will have to do to remake himself as a Pats OLB.
  30. PatsandTrojans55

    PatsandTrojans55 Rookie

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    ispatsfan,

    If some fans of Chris Long want to hope for the Patriots to draft him then I don't see a need to argue. The FACT is the Patriots don't feel the same way as the Chris Long fans do about him. He's not high on their board as a must have player and they would only consider drafting him where they feel his value is best and that's not at #7. They don't see the comparisons to Vrabel, Bruschi, Colvin and most definitely don't compare him favorably to AD. I could tell more detail of the report on him and it's not just the Patriots but other 3-4 teams as well have basically the same opinion on him. But it's not relevant anyway. He's a great kid and will be a solid but not great NFL Football player. So there's no need to turn this thread into a bash Chris Long thread because he's a good player just not going to be wearing a helmet with the flying Elvis on it.

    In the end, Chris Long fans will be in the same boat as DRC fans, cheering for a player not on the Patriots Roster.

    PT55
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
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