Who should have the Patriots taken at 48 instead of Wilson

[Off The Grid]

You need to stand closer to the Tape, my friend.

There was no other player in the entire Draft Class like LaVonte David.

245.

425.

335.

433.

343.

Honestly, there is NO alignment in which he wouldn't've been a FORCE.

Gotta disagree with you OTG. David would NOT have been a factor in the 2GAP 3-4 System the Pats run. In fact, he becomes a major liability because there is no way he can handle guards.

Yes, in the sub-packages, David would be great.

The "34" IS the Sub Package, Brother Broon!!

And it's not even near the top of the order.

But the only thing stopping LaVonte David from being an effective "34" MidFielder would be Jerod Mayo, Brandon Spikes, and Dane Fletcher. He plays far above his Weight Class.

...

 

[Off The Grid]

I also happen to agree that his strength seemed to be the Tampa 2.

Brother Sull, I don't think there's a Soul on Earth who thought otherwise.

I said so many times, myself, in these pages, dating all the way back to October.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't've been phenomenal in a 425, a 245, and a 434, among others.

I respect that others think otherwise, and in any case I'm not comparing David to Wilson.

 

[Off The Grid]

I don't like this post.....


I LOVE this post; not that it will do anything to enlighten the truly delusional who think they are better talent evaluators/drafters than those who actually do it for a living, as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread.

Disagreeing and discussing is one thing, presenting your disagreement as fact that BB doesn't know what he is doing is arrogant beyond belief.

I remember reading on line after the Vollmer pick that "BB should be locked out of the draft room". That tenor of that post is reminiscent to some of the commentary that I'm reading here.

PREACH it, Brother 8!! :rocker:

For anyone reading this, if you had the power to overrule BB at the time the picks were made, and you would willingly exercise that power, then you are the kind of poster I am referring to.

Yeah, you @#$%&!!!

 

[AzPatsFan]

If you believe that the Pats are going to be running a 2-gap 3-4 system much of the time, then I agree with you.



No, they don't. But if you believe they are going to a hybrid defense with much more fluidity and movement between positions, then David would be a fit. And as Nick Caserio has noted, the Pats spent 65-70% of their time in sub packages in 2011. I think a player who would be "great" by your admission in 65-70% on the defensive snaps would be worth considering in the second round.

Again, we're just going to disagree (hopefully respectfully) on this one.

In this discussion of hybrid Defenses, people tend to forget that the ideal is being able to morph into it, with the players on the field.

Many teams make it difficult to substitute a specialized defense, and simply changing players makes it relatively easy to read what is going on.

Sorry. He just doesn't fit. Tampa Bay is where he belongs...

 

[Off The Grid]

No, they don't. But if you believe they are going to a hybrid defense with much more fluidity and movement between positions, then David would be a fit.

In this discussion of hybrid Defenses, people tend to forget that the ideal is being able to morph into it, with the players on the field.

Many teams make it difficult to substitute a specialized defense, and simply changing players makes it relatively easy to read what is going on.

Sorry. He just doesn't fit.

Sorry.

He DOES fit.

You simply lack the capacity to understand that.

This is just discussion, Bub.

Get over yourself.

By The Way

Brother Mayo has advocated the importance of fielding Players who can"Morph" about 8000 TIMES.

And just did so in the Post you quoted!!

Welcome aboard.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I don't like this post.....


I LOVE this post; not that it will do anything to enlighten the truly delusional who think they are better talent evaluators/drafters than those who actually do it for a living, as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread.

Disagreeing and discussing is one thing, presenting your disagreement as fact that BB doesn't know what he is doing is arrogant beyond belief.

I remember reading on line after the Vollmer pick that "BB should be locked out of the draft room". That tenor of that post is reminiscent to some of the commentary that I'm reading here.

For anyone reading this, if you had the power to overrule BB at the time the picks were made, and you would willingly exercise that power, then you are the kind of poster I am referring to.

So we're delusional if we disagree with BB? Sorry, BB is very fallable, and there's nothing wrong with recognizing that.

 

[mayoclinic]

So we're delusional if we disagree with BB? Sorry, BB is very fallable, and there's nothing wrong with recognizing that.

I don't believe that's what Gr8est is saying:

Disagreeing and discussing is one thing, presenting your disagreement as fact that BB doesn't know what he is doing is arrogant beyond belief.

There should be a middle ground between blindly saying IBWT and acting as if the guy is off his rocker.

 

[patchick]

I'm a little surprised at this name being the most mentioned in the thread. My guess is Johnson was never even in the mix -- many, many reports of major attitude problems, a "diva" who "needs to be managed carefully." Athletic skills aside, that's just not what the Patriots' secondary needed.

I was reminded of this Trumaine Johnson discussion when reading about another player today. This guy was a prospect a lot of folks here liked in LAST year's draft: an impressive, explosive athlete coming out of the Mountain West. But he was rumored to be a diva/jerk, had mysterious incidents of team discipline on his resume, and reportedly turned off a lot of teams with his attitude during the pre-draft process. Remember Titus Young?

Lions ban Titus Young from OTAs for sucker-punching Louis Delmas | ProFootballTalk

 

[captain stone]

Fair points. My replies:

FWIW, here's Mel Kiper's original evaluation of the Pats' 2009 draft:



NFL: Mel Kiper grades the NFL draft - ESPN

So Brace has been a JAG, Butler a bust, and Ingram lasted a year before he forgot how to long snap. Meanwhile Vollmer has been an All Pro.
Unlike Kiper, I Hated the Brace pick for us, for obvious reasons (whose first name begins with C,
and whose last name begins with B). I saw him as nothing more than expensive & unnecessary
Wilfork insurance, and as someone who benefitted from playing next to BJ Raji.

I liked the Butler pick, and still think that Bill gave up on him too quickly, esp. when considering
the crapfest we had at DB throughout the season.

Unlike Kiper (again), I didn't like the Ingram pick because: 1) a draft pick, even a 7th-rounder,
should never be used on a LS-only player; and 2) Bill should never, evah have allowed Lonie Paxton to sign w/ Denver.

As for SeaBass, I considered him a reach then, and still consider him a reach now, because
he very likely would've been available with the pick used to select BrandonBethel TateJohnson, due in part to the back trouble he endured in college. And while he may have been an All-Pro in 2010, he was useless in 2011 because of - you guessed it - back troubles.

And speaking of BBTJ, I once again disagreed w/ Kiper that he was a decent 3rd-round pick.
He would've been a decent 5th-round pick, maybe, because: 1) he tore his knee the previous
October, so his health was an unanswered question; 2) he failed the pee-pee test at the Combine, so his judgement was poor, to say the least; and 3) he barely played the actual WR position until his senior year, so nobody (including Bill, obviously) knew if he could ever make an NFL living there.

Here's another evaluation of the 2009 draft:



2009 NFL Draft Grades: AFC East Edition - Buffalo Rumblings
Had McKenzie not torn his ACL during rookie minicamp, things might've worked out for him differently here.
OTOH, his obvious home-sickness in college (and then in the pros) might've been a sign that
maybe only a Florida-based team should draft him.

I'll wait to see how Tavon Wilson does before passing judgment.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I don't believe that's what Gr8est is saying:

There should be a middle ground between blindly saying IBWT and acting as if the guy is off his rocker.

I agree that there is a middle ground, and if I'm misinterpreting what he's saying than I'll back off, but he did say that 'if we had the power to override BB and did so, that we're the delusional poster he was previously referring to'. But I also might be wrong, so I'll withhyold judgment for now

 

[mayoclinic]

I was reminded of this Trumaine Johnson discussion when reading about another player today. This guy was a prospect a lot of folks here liked in LAST year's draft: an impressive, explosive athlete coming out of the Mountain West. But he was rumored to be a diva/jerk, had mysterious incidents of team discipline on his resume, and reportedly turned off a lot of teams with his attitude during the pre-draft process. Remember Titus Young?

Lions ban Titus Young from OTAs for sucker-punching Louis Delmas | ProFootballTalk

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-opinions-jerrel-jernigan-v-titus-young.html

Young had some supporters on this board in spite of the off-field concerns.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I was reminded of this Trumaine Johnson discussion when reading about another player today. This guy was a prospect a lot of folks here liked in LAST year's draft: an impressive, explosive athlete coming out of the Mountain West. But he was rumored to be a diva/jerk, had mysterious incidents of team discipline on his resume, and reportedly turned off a lot of teams with his attitude during the pre-draft process. Remember Titus Young?

Lions ban Titus Young from OTAs for sucker-punching Louis Delmas | ProFootballTalk

"Titus, are you the king of someplace I'm unaware of?"

 

[captain stone]

Psst!!

The "34" has plummeted to the bottom of the Depth Chart, my friend!!

Should I infer, then, that you don't believe that Reyes could effectively play the role of an athletic 3-4 DE
and 4-3 DT for the NEP?

 

[captain stone]

So we're delusional if we disagree with BB? Sorry, BB is very fallable, and there's nothing wrong with recognizing that.

Preach it, Brother Snake.

 

[captain stone]

I don't believe that's what Gr8est is saying...

That's exactly what he was saying.

 

[mayoclinic]

That's exactly what he was saying.

Except that he explicitly said that disagreement was fine.

 

[patchick]

That's exactly what he was saying.

I honestly don't think so. He wasn't saying Belichick was infallible; that's obviously nonsense, we all know plenty of mistakes to point to. But it's just as obvious that fallibility is inevitable in the guesswork that is the draft.

So my understanding of what he said was that if he had to have somebody to make a draft pick for the Patriots he'd want BB to be the one to do it, and that any of us who think that substituting our own judgment would produce better rosters overall, over time, are kidding ourselves.

Given that the Patriots just went to the Superbowl with 95% roster turnover from their first championship team, that seems like a pretty fair statement.

 

[mgteich]

No one.

We already drafted a top defensive end and linebacker. Others wanted Wilson. The issue was where to draft a safety to develop. I suspect that Wilson was rated more than a round higher than anyone else.

And yes, I was ecstatic to see us add Denard in the 7th. He is 2nd or 3rd round talent (even if he loses some games). He is another defensive back to develop.

 

[WhiZa]

If we didn't take Wilson we would of still taken a safety. Assuming they would have taken a free safety the next best one would have been Brandon Hardin

 

[Snake Eyes]

Should I infer, then, that you don't believe that Reyes could effectively play the role of an athletic 3-4 DE
and 4-3 DT for the NEP?

I'm not sure he couldnt play 4-3 DE, Reggie White was similarly sized, and Reyes is very athletic. Even if Lavonte Davis isn't your cup of tea I think Reyes would have worked out very nicely.