Who should have the Patriots taken at 48 instead of Wilson

[Snake Eyes]

The point is though, that at the end of day, even if I am not enthralled at the picks, I will defer to someone with the track record of BB, and wouldn't dream of overruling a BB pick if I had the power. I am in no way qualified to do that, and just because I can offer anecdotal evidence that a player that I liked who BB passed on, turned out better than the player BB took, does not make me more capable than BB to make the picks.

If you don't feel qualified to make a hypothetical pick than don't do it but please refrain from trashing someone who thinks that, in a specific instance that could have actually done better than BB.

 

[The Gr8est]

No, it means that many of us have our own opinions and enjoy discussing them. I'm sorry if that threatens or bothers you.



Here's the real question, if those of us that bashed the Wilson pick are proven right, will you give proper credit? Just because someone has a ton of info doesnt mean they always use that info the best way possible. Do you think that BB has info that other teams don't, yet there are some GMs that suck really bad, that shows that it's not just having information, it's applying that info well that makes the real difference.

If Wilson is healthy and doesn't play well, then it will be shown that there were better choices to be made.

But that would be then, and this is now. Are you privy to some information that suggests that this is a bad pick, or that he could have been picked later, possibly much later? If so, would you share it with us, and was BB aware of this information at the time?

What are your reasons for disliking the pick; and the prevailing mediot/draftnik consensus is NOT an answer.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

No, he's saying that thinking that we're able to make more informed judgements that BB, armed with YouTube highlights, pro day results, The opinions of the Kipers, Buntings, and McShays of the world, and maybe 2-5 games, we're delusional.

And he's right. Listen, Wilson would not have been my choice based on the information I had at hand What I did not have at hand was:

1) Private workout with prospect
2) Interview with prospect
3) Interviews with coaching staff, teammates, opposing coaches, etc
4) School records
5) Police records
6) Medical records
7) Current medical examination
8) Film session Q&A with the prospect
9) Knowledge of what BB wants to do in 2012, from a schematic standpoint
10) Knowledge of which players from the roster in 2011 he considers keepers and which he plans on chucking
11) Knowledge of any discussions of trades and free agency signings of veteran players
12) All-11 tape of every game the player played in college, and several in high school -- which you can't scout DBs without

It is beyond delusional to think that we're right and Belichick's wrong. Ever.

This is all very well Uncle Duke but what happened with Ron Brace and Darius Butler and Price and Cunningham? BB makes plenty of mistakes. It is hard to believe that we could recommend a better pick but I think I lot of evidence points to major screwup in Round 2.

I assume that BB had arranged to trade down but at the last second his trade partner backed off (because the guy they wanted was gone). Then BB had to scramble to get a safety. Before the draft the Patriots had probably talked themselves into believing that Wilson was 3-4 round pick but now in round two their trade down plans were shot and they made a desperation pick of Wilson. At the end of the round they were desperate to trade down and got fleeced by GB.

 

[Snake Eyes]

If Wilson is healthy and doesn't play well, then it will be shown that there were better choices to be made.

But that would be then, and this is know. Are you privy to some information that suggests that this is a bad pick, or that he could have been picked later, possibly much later? If so, would you share it with us, and was BB aware of this information at the time?

What are your reasons for disliking the pick; and the prevailing mediot/draftnik consensus is NOT an answer.

First off, if there are scouts who I respect, why can't I give value to their opinions?

Next, if I look at tape and just don't like what I see from a player, is that valid?

Finally, what if I simply think that other players would have offered more value, is that legit? Wilson might have been available later, he might not have, hell, maybe someone would have pulled an Al Davis and drafted him in the first, does that mean we should have drafted him before Jones and Hightower? The point is to get maximum value, on the field, with the draft capital you're working with, I think the pick could have been better spent elsewhere.

 

[mayoclinic]

I assume that BB had arranged to trade down but at the last second his trade partner backed off (because the guy they wanted was gone). Then BB had to scramble to get a safety. Before the draft the Patriots had probably talked themselves into believing that Wilson was 3-4 round pick but now in round two their trade down plans were shot and they made a desperation pick of Wilson. At the end of the round they were desperate to trade down and got fleeced by GB.

I think you must have forgotten to take your anti-psychotics. This is just ridiculous - there is no evidence for any of it .

 

[The Gr8est]

First off, if there are scouts who I respect, why can't I give value to their opinions?

Next, if I look at tape and just don't like what I see from a player, is that valid?

Finally, what if I simply think that other players would have offered more value, is that legit? Wilson might have been available later, he might not have, hell, maybe someone would have pulled an Al Davis and drafted him in the first, does that mean we should have drafted him before Jones and Hightower? The point is to get maximum value, on the field, with the draft capital you're working with, I think the pick could have been better spent elsewhere.

I don't really take issue with anything in this post, and I don't have any objections with your own observations. I would have made a different pick as well.

Now I haven't seen YOU say it, but one thing about the Wilson pick that I find really irksome are those who are proclaiming that Wilson would have been available later, with the suggestion that he was poor value where he was picked, due to the "fact" that he would have been available later. and I just think that that idea comes from the fact that Wilson didn't get much coverage in the media pre-draft and wasn't even a name that you would see in mock drafts that high.

But just because he wasn't a familiar name to us, doesn't mean that the pros didn't know who he was, or value him highly.

Yet there are some posters who seem unwilling to give up their rock solid dogma that Wilson was bad value based on their very incomplete knowledge, rather than give BB the benefit of the doubt.

Several posters here have said that while they did not like the pick, they are willing to withhold judgment and see how Wilson performs, and these posters are, from what I have seen" among the most knowledgeable fans on this board. I am on board with that opinion.

 

[Water Boy]

First off, if there are scouts who I respect, why can't I give value to their opinions?

Next, if I look at tape and just don't like what I see from a player, is that valid?

Finally, what if I simply think that other players would have offered more value, is that legit? Wilson might have been available later, he might not have, hell, maybe someone would have pulled an Al Davis and drafted him in the first, does that mean we should have drafted him before Jones and Hightower? The point is to get maximum value, on the field, with the draft capital you're working with, I think the pick could have been better spent elsewhere.

Well put Snake eyes. I totally agree and I will totally admit I'm wrong if Wilson turns out to be a very good player.

On that note, I'd like to turn the conversation to where should we set the bar for Tavon Wilson. If Tavon Wilson = Eugene Wilson (a good but not very good player) would he have been worth the pick? I say, given what was on the board, no.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I don't really take issue with anything in this post, and I don't have any objections with your own observations. I would have made a different pick as well.

Now I haven't seen YOU say it, but one thing about the Wilson pick that I find really irksome are those who are proclaiming that Wilson would have been available later, with the suggestion that he was poor value where he was picked, due to the "fact" that he would have been available later. and I just think that that idea comes from the fact that Wilson didn't get much coverage in the media pre-draft and wasn't even a name that you would see in mock drafts that high.

But just because he wasn't a familiar name to us, doesn't mean that the pros didn't know who he was, or value him highly.

Yet there are some posters who seem unwilling to give up their rock solid dogma that Wilson was bad value based on their very incomplete knowledge, rather than give BB the benefit of the doubt.

Several posters here have said that while they did not like the pick, they are willing to withhold judgment and see how Wilson performs, and these posters are, from what I have seen" among the most knowledgeable fans on this board. I am on board with that opinion.

I don't know how someone can say for a fact that Wilson would have been available later, it's pure speculation, as is the assertion that he wouldnt have been available later. I think the "poor value" idea comes from people thinking that it was a poor risk, all of this stuff is just risk management but how can one minimize their risk?

 

[patchick]

Well put Snake eyes. I totally agree and I will totally admit I'm wrong if Wilson turns out to be a very good player.

On that note, I'd like to turn the conversation to where should we set the bar for Tavon Wilson. If Tavon Wilson = Eugene Wilson (a good but not very good player) would he have been worth the pick? I say, given what was on the board, no.

I respectfully disagree. Doubtless one or more of the other players coveted in this thread will turn out to be total studs (and one or more will be total busts). But a respectable NFL starting safety was the team's most glaring need, and they've become mighty hard to find.

If Wilson reaches that respectable starter level, the incremental value to this championship-caliber team will be tremendous and I will consider the pick successful, period.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

I think you must have forgotten to take your anti-psychotics. This is just ridiculous - there is no evidence for any of it .

So you really think that BB went into round 2 planing to make an epic reach with the first pick and get raped in a trade with GB with the second pick? I don't think so....it did not go as planned; something went wrong. What went wrong? Either the player they wanted did not fall to them (but I did not see who it could have been) or the player that a trade partner wanted did not fall.

Whatever happened you can rest assured that BB will never again put himself in a situation where he has no day three picks.

 

[mayoclinic]

I respectfully disagree. Doubtless one or more of the other players coveted in this thread will turn out to be total studs (and one or more will be total busts). But a respectable NFL starting safety was the team's most glaring need, and they've become mighty hard to find.

If Wilson reaches that respectable starter level, the incremental value to this championship-caliber team will be tremendous and I will consider the pick successful, period.

It would be a very high standard to require that a pick at a given level be better than all available alternatives in order to be considered successful.

 

[captain stone]

Except that he explicitly said that disagreement was fine.

Which is what I & others were doing.

 

[captain stone]

Why would you infer that, Brother Stone??

My perception of where the Patriots Defense is headed ~ and it's just my opinion, after all!! ~ has nothing to do with my perception of how Reyes would do in our System, or any other.

But, personally, I wasn't very high on the kid.

I'll leave it at that: I hate to be a Binkie Basher!!

Fair enough.

What about Devon Still or Jerel Worthy here?

 

[mayoclinic]

Fair enough.

What about Devon Still or Jerel Worthy here?

There's 2 elements to consider: how highly you grade the players, and how you see them fit.

I personally liked both Still and Worthy more than I liked Reyes, but both guys had inconsistency and motor issues. Worthy is more of a 1-gap penetrating DT, so it will be interesting to see how Green Bay uses him. A lot of people were a bit perplexed by the Packers taking Worthy for their 3-4. Still could be used as a 4-3 DT or a 3-4 DE, so he had some schematic versatility. Both guys had undeniable talent, but both scared me a bit because of their inconsistency and lack of motor.

Neither was on my personal short list, but if BB had taken either at 48 I would have considered them a reasonable pick. If we were going DT I probably would have preferred Alameda Ta'amu or Brandon Thompson, both of whom I had graded as late 2nd round picks.

 

[mayoclinic]

So you really think that BB went into round 2 planing to make an epic reach with the first pick and get raped in a trade with GB with the second pick? I don't think so....it did not go as planned; something went wrong. What went wrong? Either the player they wanted did not fall to them (but I did not see who it could have been) or the player that a trade partner wanted did not fall.

You've already created a long thread about this, which has gone on ad nauseum. You have one reading about "what happened", which is pure speculation on your part.

I don't think anything "went wrong". The Pats had their board prepared way in advance, and I'm fairly convinced that Wilson was graded as a 2nd round pick on their board. They made a conscious choice to trade up for Jones and Hightower in the 1st round, and part of what probably factored into that was their calculation about who was likely to be available in the 2nd round, and the fact that they would have no ammunition with which to move around.

If the Pats didn't think Wilson was worth the #48 pick and couldn't find a trade partner, or if someone had backed out at the last moment, they could have just kept passing to stall for time while looking for another trade partner, or until they decided it was worth taking Wilson. They didn't do that. They thought he was worth the #48 pick. Period.

Whatever happened you can rest assured that BB will never again put himself in a situation where he has no day three picks.

You are much more confident about making absolute predictions about what BB will do than I am. But in general, I believe that he values day 3 picks. And while you may feel that the Pats got crappy point value for the trade with Green Bay, I feel that they got pretty decent player value. Alfonzo Dennard was a late 2nd round pick on my board, so they basically got Dennard and Bequette for #62 plus 2 intriguing development guys. As far as I can tell they traded Casey Hayward for Jake Bequette, Alfonzo Dennard, Nate Ebner and Jeremy Ebert. I can live with that trade, even though I would have liked more point value.

 

[captain stone]

It is beyond delusional to think that we're right and Belichick's wrong. Ever.

Brock Williams,
Bethel Johnson,
Guss Scott,
Dexter Reid,
Cedric Cobbs (instead of Michael Turner),
Stomper Meriweather,
Kareem Brown,
Clint Oldenburg,
Mike Richardson,
Justise Hairston,
Oscar Lua,
Mike Elgin,
Terry Wheatley (instead of Terrell Thomas),
Chicken Legs (instead of Cliff Avril),
Kevin O'Connell
Johnny Wilhite,
"Pro-Bowler"(snicker) Matty Slater,
Lil' Bo Ruud,
Busto Brace (instead of Connor Barwin),
Brandon Tate,
Lil' Richie OBurger,
George Bustey,
Jermaine Cunnyham,
and Glas-IR Dowling (instead of Jabaal Sheard)
all say Thanks for having our backs.

 

[captain stone]

There's 2 elements to consider: how highly you grade the players, and how you see them fit.

I personally liked both Still and Worthy more than I liked Reyes, but both guys had inconsistency and motor issues. Worthy is more of a 1-gap penetrating DT, so it will be interesting to see how Green Bay uses him. A lot of people were a bit perplexed by the Packers taking Worthy for their 3-4. Still could be used as a 4-3 DT or a 3-4 DE, so he had some schematic versatility. Both guys had undeniable talent, but both scared me a bit because of their inconsistency and lack of motor.

Neither was on my personal short list, but if BB had taken either at 48 I would have considered them a reasonable pick. If we were going DT I probably would have preferred Alameda Ta'amu or Brandon Thompson, both of whom I had graded as late 2nd round picks.

I too was a bit surprised that GB took Worthy, though I did prefer him to Thompson, whom I see as not much more than a Myron Pryor type of Tampa-2 UT.

In a perfect world (i.e.: our edge defender positions having already been filled through previous drafts),
Ta' amu wouldv'e been a helluva pick at 90. Seeing that we had zero 4th-round picks, however, I'm cool
with Bequette there because he would not have been available by our next pick, which at that time was 163.

 

[Off The Grid]

Fair enough.

What about Devon Still or Jerel Worthy here?

I'm afraid that I didn't care for either, Bro: I don't trust Still's Motor, and I don't like Worthy's Core Strength.

You mentioned Taamu. I would've LOVED him in the 4th.

But all told, I didn't like the D Tackle Class at ALL, so I would've held fire on all them, signed Fanene ~ God Bless Mad Bill!! ~ and gone after Aubrayo Franklin, while awaiting the 2013 Class.

 

[Sciz]

On that note, I'd like to turn the conversation to where should we set the bar for Tavon Wilson. If Tavon Wilson = Eugene Wilson (a good but not very good player) would he have been worth the pick? I say, given what was on the board, no.

If he can be Eugene Wilson from snap to whistle and James Sanders the rest of the time, then he'll have been a great pick.

 

[jsull87]

Brother Sull, I don't think there's a Soul on Earth who thought otherwise.

I said so many times, myself, in these pages, dating all the way back to October.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't've been phenomenal in a 425, a 245, and a 434, among others.

I respect that others think otherwise, and in any case I'm not comparing David to Wilson.

No doubt he would have been very good in our Sub Packages. My only contention as far at the pick at 48 is concerned is does Wilson's value in the 3-4, 4-3, 425, 245, 434 e.t.c outweigh that sub package impact of someone like David in the 2nd.

I know you weren't comparing the two players but david's name was brought up as an option and it is interesting as a solid Saftey who has even played a bit of corner seems to fit in every defence all shapes and sizes the pats use.

Whether you like him as a player is a different story i have chosen to trust BB on this one which i do admit is my tendency when i don't know enough about a player to form my own objective opinion... he's paid i'm not.