What the status with Ghost?

[PatsChamp88]

He must have a good 40 time.... 4 million a year for a kicker?

I'm too lazy to look it up but he probably was their leading scorer which says doesn't say a lot unless your the Raiders

 

[RayClay]

He is extremely unclutch. How many times when the pats have been losing and need points does he miss a fg. How many times wheb the pats were starting to let games slip did he push the momentum the other way with misses. Hes a soft player. Would take him back but not overpay.

Vinatieri was in his sixth year in 2001. Look up his first four, Gost is quite a bit better, and that's not counting his stronger leg.

It's ridiculous how people want to throw away good players after a couple years for no reason.

 

[mcmurtry86]

Vinatieri was in his sixth year in 2001. Look up his first four, Gost is quite a bit better, and that's not counting his stronger leg.

It's ridiculous how people want to throw away good players after a couple years for no reason.

It's been a long, long time since the Pats have had a bad kicker. It wouldn't surprise me if many of the "dump Gost" crowd haven't known a kicker other than Vinatieri or Gostowski (maybe Bahr).

Gost is easily one of the top 8-10 kickers in the game, and this year more than any other, we saw the effect a bad kicker can have on your playoff chances (e.g. Dallas)

And yes, Vinatieri was clutch, but the clutchness hid the fact that he wasn't as good a kicker most of the time. He wouldn't have had to kick the game winner in SB38 if he hadn't missed one and had another blocked earlier in the game.

Exactly. Vinatieri had a lot of great kicks, but the guy blew his share as well.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Sometimes when I read posts on this forum, I feel compelled to start bashing my head against the wall.

I'm glad people are so cavalier at the prospect of losing Gostkowski. Apparently people are of the opinion that kickers are not allowed to miss field goals, ever. These same people apparently did not watch a single game this season (including playoffs).

Gostkowski is a good kicker with a cannon for a leg who hasn't even entered his prime. But I'm sure we can find a placement UDFA to take his place. And then when he shanks critical kicks, we can all blame BB's crappy judgment and Kraft for being cheap.

In terms of accuracy, many kickers don't peak until their 30s.

 

[Jackson 2]

Sometimes when I read posts on this forum, I feel compelled to start bashing my head against the wall.

I'm glad people are so cavalier at the prospect of losing Gostkowski. Apparently people are of the opinion that kickers are not allowed to miss field goals, ever. These same people apparently did not watch a single game this season (including playoffs).

Gostkowski is a good kicker with a cannon for a leg who hasn't even entered his prime. But I'm sure we can find a placement UDFA to take his place. And then when he shanks critical kicks, we can all blame BB's crappy judgment and Kraft for being cheap.

Bingo. I'm with you. This thread has left me shaking my head more than most lately, and that covers some territory, so to speak.

 

[patriotscpfc]

Well, Fatkowski is the Raiders offense, so senile Al figured what better way keep your best offensive threat. Next, the Punter will get $4mill since that would be their best defensive player given the # punts inside 20

Too late, he already does.

---

Letting Gostkowski go would be a dumb move.

His range has increased since 2008 and in Training Camp was clearing from close to 60 yards. But we know that Bill isn't kicking anything over 55 yards as he plays the field position game.

He had his best year for Kickoffs.

Remember the Miami game vs Ted Ginn? 30 yard line. Touchback. Beast. Except James Sanders ended up offside.

25 yard line. Even bigger touchback. Massive cheers fromthe Patriots sideline.

Answer this question.

Who would you rather have stepping up to Kick us into the playoffs?

Gostkowski?

A Rookie?

Or one of the scrubs in Free Agency who have already proved the can't do it?

 

[patchick]

It's been a long, long time since the Pats have had a bad kicker. It wouldn't surprise me if many of the "dump Gost" crowd haven't known a kicker other than Vinatieri or Gostowski

Bingo. Try this, everybody: close your eyes and imagine the past decade of Patriots history if their placekickers had been of the same caliber as their punters.

 

[Patjew]

It seemed like his KOs were much shorter later in the year, even in domes and warm weather. I wonder if he was a bit injured.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I think the Pats should do everything reasonable to keep Gostkowski with emphasis on "reasonable." They typically will pay "close to top" but not "top" money at skill positions and that's what they should do.

Using anything the befuddled brain of Al Davis concocts as a standard is not in their style or their interests. $3.25--3.50 a year for five years (vs. four years for Janikowski) seems aggressive but sensible, with perhaps some post-Season incentives thrown in.

Gostkowski has been a very, very, very good K for the Pats and I want to see the Pats lock him up; $3.25--3.50 a year for five years with incentives added is a reasonable offer.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Bingo. Try this, everybody: close your eyes and imagine the past decade of Patriots history if their placekickers had been of the same caliber as their punters.

Basically, I agree (see my post above), but try this.

Gostkowski has the same kick this year in the middle of a regular season game from virtually the same spot on the same field towards the same Goal Post in the Super Dome as did Adam at the end of SB XXXVI...and misses. Gostkowski's was in the middle of a regular season game; Vinatieri's was with time expiring to win it all.

My point? I agree that the Pats should do everything reasonable to keep him, but Gostkowski is not Vinatieri.

 

[patchick]

Basically, I agree (see my post above), but try this.

Gostkowski has the same kick this year in the middle of a regular season game from virtually the same spot on the same field towards the same Goal Post in the Super Dome as did Adam at the end of SB XXXVI...and misses. Gostkowski's was in the middle of a regular season game; Vinatieri's was with time expiring to win it all.

I don't really get this comparison. You can't evaluate "clutchness" by comparing a routine mid-game kick to a huge pressure kick, and you can't evaluate leg/accuracy by picking out a single kick one guy made and a single kick the other guy missed.

In his first 4 years, Vinatieri hit 99/136 FGs (73%), while Gostkowski is 103/121 (85%). Viniatieri also missed 4 of 144 PATs, Gost just 1 of 205. The kid is really good.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I don't really get this comparison. You can't evaluate "clutchness" by comparing a routine mid-game kick to a huge pressure kick, and you can't evaluate leg/accuracy by picking out a single kick one guy made and a single kick the other guy missed.

In his first 4 years, Vinatieri hit 99/136 FGs (73%), while Gostkowski is 103/121 (85%). Viniatieri also missed 4 of 144 PATs, Gost just 1 of 205. The kid is really good.

hey, i know "the kid is really good," that's why i hope they keep them and pay him up to 3.5 a year, plus incentives, so chill.

but don't try to tell me he's delivered anything vaguely like what #4 delivered.

and, in a sense you make my point: he missed a "routine mid game kick," same spot, same field, same goal post; am i supposed to believe he does better when a Title and the hopes of a franchise and fanbase are on the line and time is expiring? Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but then and there he didn't and the latter is a fact, the rest is a hope.

 

[mcmurtry86]

Basically, I agree (see my post above), but try this.

Gostkowski has the same kick this year in the middle of a regular season game from virtually the same spot on the same field towards the same Goal Post in the Super Dome as did Adam at the end of SB XXXVI...and misses. Gostkowski's was in the middle of a regular season game; Vinatieri's was with time expiring to win it all.

My point? I agree that the Pats should do everything reasonable to keep him, but Gostkowski is not Vinatieri.

It's virtually impossible to evaluate a player's "clutch" ability. If one is going to tout Vinatieri for all his "clutch" kicks, they need to keep in mind his "unclutch" misses. Because Gostkowski has never been in that situation (kicking a game winning playoff field goal), it's useless to bring "clutch" into the equation. When evaluating your kicker, you want the guy who is most likely to hit an important field goal for your team. To that extent, Gostkowski is one of the most accurate and reliable kickers in the game. For anyone to imply that he can't get the job done in the playoffs is absurd. Over the course of history, I'm sure you would find that the vast majority of accurate regular season kickers are accurate in the playoffs as well. There are always a few exceptions (Kaeding being the obvious one), but in general it holds true.

Garret Hartley made a bunch of "clutch" kicks for New Orleans in the playoffs and Super Bowl, but he also blew a number of regular season kicks which cost the Saints at least one game (Tampa Bay) and nearly another (Washington). Judging by the reactions of some in this thread, he would be an upgrade over the "unclutch" Gostkowski. For my money, I would much, much rather have Gostkowski than Hartley and I'm not sure of any sane argument to the contrary.

Gost is one of the game's best, and there are very very few upgrades out there (I'm not sure any of them are even available).

 

[bucky]

And once you've created yet another hole in the lineup, how do you intend to fix that?

The only team stupid enough to give up a 2nd round pick for an above average (but not an elite) kicker has already given a ridiculously bloated contract to their own guy.

If someone was willing to give us a late 2nd for him, I would gladly take it.

There are a couple of guys in this year's draft who are worth a late round pick. Plus there are free agents - Rackers, Reed, Graham to name a few - who are only slightly worse then Ghost. Most of these guys can be had for the same money as a 1st round tender, and we would get a 2nd round pick out of it.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Unbelievable. Wow.....a $4m a year deal for PK.

After hearing about this, Gost's agent just put an offer on a 5k sq ft pad in Bel Air, CA

If Ghost's agent thinks that that just set the market for kickers, then he should prepare to be laughed out of every front office in the league. The only other team in the league that MIGHT be stupid enough to pay that is the Redskins.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The only other team in the league that MIGHT be stupid enough to pay that is the Redskins.

Or the Colts. After all, they did shell out big money to AV in 06

Either way, no way the Pats come close to this. No way.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Because Gostkowski has never been in that situation (kicking a game winning playoff field goal), it's useless to bring "clutch" into the equation.

He had one chance, actually, in the 2006 game v. San Diego, which he made. It was only 31 yards, but it came after he had already made a 51-yarder early in the game when the Pats were struggling to get anything going.

Gost is one of the game's best, and there are very very few upgrades out there (I'm not sure any of them are even available).

Amen.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

There are a couple of guys in this year's draft who are worth a late round pick. Plus there are free agents - Rackers, Reed, Graham to name a few - who are only slightly worse then Ghost. Most of these guys can be had for the same money as a 1st round tender, and we would get a 2nd round pick out of it.

Except that all of them are 5-8 years older.

Gostkowski is 25, in an age where kickers can play until their early 40s. I sure as heck don't want to see him end up a Bronco or a Colt for the next decade.

 

[Deus Irae]

The only team stupid enough to give up a 2nd round pick for an above average (but not an elite) kicker has already given a ridiculously bloated contract to their own guy.

If someone was willing to give us a late 2nd for him, I would gladly take it.

There are a couple of guys in this year's draft who are worth a late round pick. Plus there are free agents - Rackers, Reed, Graham to name a few - who are only slightly worse then Ghost. Most of these guys can be had for the same money as a 1st round tender, and we would get a 2nd round pick out of it.

First of all, Gost has been an All-Pro. Unless your going to claim that Belichick's been protecting him, that would make him 'elite' pretty much by definition.

Secondly, the Jets used a 2nd round pick on Mike Nugent a few years back.

Thirdly, teams saw just how important kickers are when they watched the playoffs this year. Feel free to ask Graham about that, as a matter of fact.

Some smart team drafting at the bottom of the second round would certainly be tempted to grab Gost. Then the Patriots could hope that their replacement was half as good as Gost, all because the team decided to save a few pennies.

 

[mcmurtry86]

The only team stupid enough to give up a 2nd round pick for an above average (but not an elite) kicker has already given a ridiculously bloated contract to their own guy.

If someone was willing to give us a late 2nd for him, I would gladly take it.

There are a couple of guys in this year's draft who are worth a late round pick. Plus there are free agents - Rackers, Reed, Graham to name a few - who are only slightly worse then Ghost. Most of these guys can be had for the same money as a 1st round tender, and we would get a 2nd round pick out of it.

Let's let "unclutch" Gostkowski go to bring in Shayne Graham. Brilliant plan, guess you missed the playoffs. As a point of reference, look at some FG%:

Gostkowski: Career - 85.1%, best season - 2008 90.0%, worst 2006 (rookie year) 76.9%.

Graham: Career - 85.2%, best season - 2007 91.2%, worst - 2002 72.2%

Reed: Career - 83.3%, best - 2007 92.0%, worst - 2003 71.9%

Rackers: Career - 78.2%, best - 2005 95.2%, worst - 2001 57.1% (He has 6 seasons under 80%, so I have no idea why you list him as a "little worse"....he is much much worse despite having 2 great years in 2005 and 2009)

I really don't see the need to tinker with a position where the Pats are amongst the best. Gostkowski is reliable, consistent and improving. Bringing in a guy coming off of an epic playoff choke (Graham), a guy with more awful years than good ones and that's in an optimal kicking climate (Rackers) or a guy who is known more for his drunken antics in the club scene than his clutch kicks (Reed) or a late round pick (because those usually work out so well right? It's that easy to find a good kicker, just ask Washington, or Dallas) is insane.

Yes, the Pats would get another 2nd round pick in your scenario. IMO, that pick doesn't make up for the downgrading of a critical (but often trivialized) position.