What do you think is holding up the Welker signing?

[MP-Logick]

Welker "limits the offense"?????????????


That's insane, I guess Brady limits it to, they really need to bring in Chad jackson, he's a real talent, and maybe Dan Orlovsky to throw to him, then the offense won't be so limited and it can reach it's potential.


I'm really starting to wonder if the offseason makes fans go insane, the best players suddenly become question marks and the fansstart acting like the contract is coming out of their pocket.

Fans always think they're paying for player's contracts. People seem to get more angry that Ochocinco was paid more then his production deserved then about anything else.

 

[YearbookCurfew]

I know what is holding it up.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz8mhqEFsS1qzngqr.png

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't think it has anything to do with how Welker feels or how the Patriots feel.

The Patriots really know their business when it comes to spending and at this point have around $20 million cap space (not a solid #) with the raised per-team minimum (PTM), so they can afford to franchise Welker ($10m), sign Mario or Brandon to a big deal, and have a little left over to sign two first round picks (ha ha, that was funny, huh?) plus a few more resigns (e.g., Anderson).

My guess is they will franchise Welker while they work out a medium term deal (say, 3 years) for Welker that's based on the precedent set in the FA agency come March.

The great thing is that the Patriots are always thinking ahead and were thinking three steps ahead when they cut a lot of deals that expired the season after the lockout (e.g., right now) so that they would have a great deal of flexibility when the new CBA would kick in. The recent news that the Patriots can now carry forward cap space from this past season into the new league year (on top of the +/- $20m cap space they have) is a big bonus for us and is why the FO probably wouldn't blink an eye if they have to franchise Welker if necessary.

That big bonus has always been there, just had to jump through some hoops to achieve the rollover in the past, but we consistently did that as did most teams. And reality is a good chunk of that money is already spoken for in playing time and other incentives met last season that in many cases double future salaries for players particularly in rookie as well as in some veteran deals. SF's beat writer yesterday tweeted that $4M of their $16M to be rolled over was already taken up by just that.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This isn''t going to be an easy deal to work out. Welker will be 31 this season...totally the wrong side of 30. You haven't got more than a couple of years of production in this guy and there are questions you have to ask like 'just how many more hits can this guy take'.

Long term is our of the question unless it's a front heavy deal with a year or two of top money, with it getting progressively lower with age. You've also got to take into consideration that Gronk will need a restructure this off season most likely and Hernandez may be part of their long term plans too down the line and may need re-signing.

I don't think the Pats want him to eat $9.4 million with the cap either.

I actually think that the Patriots may be seriously contemplating if it's worth their while signing this guy up or seeing what they can get for him. We seem to have automatically assumed it's a done deal.

It wouldn't be the first business decision that the team have amde in the 'best interests of the team'.

He will be tagged and they will try and sign him to an economic deal...not sure if it's going to be plain sailing though. Could the Past get some decent picks for him now and could they fill the production? Possibly.....

Welker is playing a hell of a lot of wide out and his height and size limits our offense in some ways...maybe they may feel they can get a good year out of Branch and tackle WR in FA/the draft. Who knows.....

Gronkowski is exactly half way through his rookie deal. Something Jonathan underscored when asked about whether or not they'd be looking to redo him. They aren't going to set that kind of precedent. If they redo him at all this year it will be at the tail end of the season or in between the end of it and the start of the 2013 league year. More likely it's done before the start of the 2013 season. The tag is low enough for TE's to give them leverage and they aren't shrinking violets when it comes to using it. New deals for the TE's will be kicking in in 2014 when the cap rises dramatically and Welker will be halfway through any deal by then.

 

[PatsFan2]

It still hasn't happened, and it's looking ever more likely that Welker will be Franchised.

Is $9Mill the going rate for dime a dozen Slot WR's with average Speed these days? Call me crazy but i would spend that $9Mill on a 3 down Defensive player than on a Slot WR. Welker can be replaced! yes i said it. As good as our Offense has been over the years we have yet to WIN A SB with it. Retool the Defense and let Brady work with better than average WR's...that approach won us three SB's.

 

[Marqui]

Is $9Mill the going rate for dime a dozen Slot WR's with average Speed these days? Call me crazy but i would spend that $9Mill on a 3 down Defensive player than on a Slot WR. Welker can be replaced! yes i said it. As good as our Offense has been over the years we have yet to WIN A SB with it. Retool the Defense and let Brady work with better than average WR's...that approach won us three SB's.

You're definitely not crazy, I want them to use that approach too.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Is $9Mill the going rate for dime a dozen Slot WR's with average Speed these days? Call me crazy but i would spend that $9Mill on a 3 down Defensive player than on a Slot WR. Welker can be replaced! yes i said it. As good as our Offense has been over the years we have yet to WIN A SB with it. Retool the Defense and let Brady work with better than average WR's...that approach won us three SB's.

(A) Have you heard of something called "injuries"? In both SBs, the Pats O was badly hurt by them.

(B) As I've pointed out before, while Welker doesn't have elite speed, he has elite acceleration (even Madden recognizes this, as they give him a 99 on that trait). Over the first ~10 yards, he can beat just about anyone in the NFL.

And if they were "dime-a-dozen," why don't you see a dozen WW types catching, say, 80-100 passes a year now?

 

[PatsFan2]

(A) Have you heard of something called "injuries"? In both SBs, the Pats O was badly hurt by them.

(B) As I've pointed out before, while Welker doesn't have elite speed, he has elite acceleration (even Madden recognizes this, as they give him a 99 on that trait). Over the first ~10 yards, he can beat just about anyone in the NFL.

ct you play Madden? if you do we should play sometime...yes Welker does. But i cannot use the Pats in Madden i think they are too easy to defend. When i play people all i have to do is Double Welker and put a very fast CB or Safety on Gronk and the Patriots are pretty much shut down. In Madden and real life the Patriots are very weak on the outsides. That makes them easy to defend against good Defenses.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Welker "limits the offense"?????????????


That's insane, I guess Brady limits it to, they really need to bring in Chad jackson, he's a real talent, and maybe Dan Orlovsky to throw to him, then the offense won't be so limited and it can reach it's potential.


I'm really starting to wonder if the offseason makes fans go insane, the best players suddenly become question marks and the fansstart acting like the contract is coming out of their pocket.

He's a 5'10" 185 lbs slot receiver lining up at split end.... what part of that isn't occasionally limiting?

I'm not saying he does all the time, but when you match him up against a big, physicaly corner and they clog the middle, we're done for. Welker can't stretch the field!

My argument is the Pats could get enough production over the middle, get what they can for him and just make some move for someone like Meachem. Lloyd, Wayne and a rookie. We could actually improve our offense.

I'm not insane...just looking at it in a different light It would be dull if everyone said 'oooo but we love Wes so he has to stay'...there are both pros an cons to both keeping him on the field and in terms of economics imo.

 

[Weklah83]

I cant believe this guy Gresh gets paid to cover sports. He made the argument that since welker dropped that ball he should get frachise tagged opposed to a long term deal. Saying that he needs to prove himself now. Are you kidding me??????hahahaha Franchise him or not but what the hell would one fluke play have to do with that decision. What a moron.:rocker:

 

[BradyFTW!]

How about "because it's only February"? When the other major UFAs start signing and Welker hasn't, then maybe there will be something to read into. For now, there isn't.

 

[Ivan]

He's a 5'10" 185 lbs slot receiver lining up at split end.... what part of that isn't occasionally limiting?

I'm not saying he does all the time, but when you match him up against a big, physicaly corner and they clog the middle, we're done for. Welker can't stretch the field!

My argument is the Pats could get enough production over the middle, get what they can for him and just make some move for someone like Meachem. Lloyd, Wayne and a rookie. We could actually improve our offense.

I'm not insane...just looking at it in a different light It would be dull if everyone said 'oooo but we love Wes so he has to stay'...there are both pros an cons to both keeping him on the field and in terms of economics imo.

Unless you bring in Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson there is no way to let Welker go and improve the offense.


Nothing personal but ANYONE who wants to get rid of Welker is a moron. His size has absolutely nothing to do with his abilities as a player, he is one of the most producive and best recievers to ever play the game and together with Brady they have been virtually unstoppable. It's not a matter of "loving Welker" it is a matter of looking at how good he is and how productive they are with him and realizing he has made them a much better team. The people advocatring replacing him now are the same as those who said he would be easily repalced by Edelman last offseason and this season once again proved just how wrong they are and just how good Welker is.

Fantasy football and Masdden have convinced fans they know more than Belichik and that measurables are more important than production. They would rather have Chad Jackson than Wes Welker, he's a real talent, he would be unstoppable with my controller.

 

[tatepatsfan]

I think it's way too early to be worried about this. For all we know, Welker could be on vacation with his new fiancee, trying to forget about how the season ended. Or visiting family, or doing any number of other things that take him out of Foxboro. Perhaps his agent is actively negotiating the deal on his behalf, and they are just doing a great job of keeping it under wraps. As other posters have pointed out, no other teams have signed their key free agents this offseason.

If it gets to be early March and we still haven't heard anything, then I'll get nervous. For now, let's just all acknowledge that we are desperate for some positive Pats news. Relax.

 

[Ivan]

ct you play Madden? if you do we should play sometime...yes Welker does. But i cannot use the Pats in Madden i think they are too easy to defend. When i play people all i have to do is Double Welker and put a very fast CB or Safety on Gronk and the Patriots are pretty much shut down. In Madden and real life the Patriots are very weak on the outsides. That makes them easy to defend against good Defenses.

That makes them easy to defend in a video game, in real football they are almost impossible to stop and the numbers prove it every year. If you are going to talk about real football then use real football as your argument, video games are irrelevant.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

ct you play Madden? if you do we should play sometime...yes Welker does. But i cannot use the Pats in Madden i think they are too easy to defend. When i play people all i have to do is Double Welker and put a very fast CB or Safety on Gronk and the Patriots are pretty much shut down. In Madden and real life the Patriots are very weak on the outsides. That makes them easy to defend against good Defenses.

Madden:bricks:

So the answer is to strengthen them on the outside and weaken them through the middle? LOL The OL will love that formula.

The answer is to just find a freakin' viable outside threat. Doesn't have to be all world and certainly won't help if its once upon a time all world, either. And it won't help if they weaken the middle in the process.

They need to retain Welker just like they needed to retain Branch. The alternative was a lousy season followed by a season for the ages that still came up short when it mattered most with Welker and an all world outside threat, followed by three years of none to one and done while the outside threat was suddenly averaging $9M per and averaging less production by the season while the $4M run of the mill slot guy was setting records. Which is why the costly overhyped but less productive outside threat was swapped for a guy who could approach his production for a quarter of the cost. They tried to split the difference this season adding another outside threat for $4M AAV but came up empty handed because he couldn't adapt to a read and react offense. They know what they need, they just haven't hit on it yet.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Unless you bring in Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson there is no way to let Welker go and improve the offense.


Nothing personal but ANYONE who wants to get rid of Welker is a moron. His size has absolutely nothing to do with his abilities as a player, he is one of the most producive and best recievers to ever play the game and together with Brady they have been virtually unstoppable. It's not a matter of "loving Welker" it is a matter of looking at how good he is and how productive they are with him and realizing he has made them a much better team. The people advocatring replacing him now are the same as those who said he would be easily repalced by Edelman last offseason and this season once again proved just how wrong they are and just how good Welker is.

Fantasy football and Masdden have convinced fans they know more than Belichik and that measurables are more important than production. They would rather have Chad Jackson than Wes Welker, he's a real talent, he would be unstoppable with my controller.

You're missing all my points, but I'm not going to call you a moron for thinking it

Gotta give me credit..I didn't use madden as an example

 

[Ivan]

Welker can't stretch the field!

And 95% of receivers can't do what Welker does, even if some of them can "stretch the field." You guys are absolutely fixated on what Welker supposedly can't do but don't even consider the fact that most of the receivers you want to replace him with could never do what he does for the Patriots offense, and I guarantee you that if you asked Tom Brady if there is any other receiver in football he would rather be throwing to he would tell you there isn't anyone he would rather have, and that;s not out off man love it is out of the realization of just how important Welker is to this offense.

The pro Welker contingent has been hearing these arguments since the Patriots gave a 2nd for him to the fish and those arguing against Welker have been proven wrong every single season to a degree i have never seen before. The last time Patriot fans have been proven this wrong was when some argued for keeping Bledsoe because Brady simply didn't have the arm Bledsoe had, and this argument is no different. Those crapping on Welker are 100% wrong and that has been proven absolutely, they might as well be saying the Patriots would have been better off with Bledsoe, he's unstoppable in Madden. Imagine if the Patriots brought back Bledsoe and Moss, they could stretch the Maddeen field and no Madden defense could stop them, then bring in Colston and Garcon and they would win 365 Madden Lombardis a year. Wow, how awesome would that be.


If some take this personally my apology, but I have completely had it with the fantasy football GM's and Maddenites making fantasy arguments that have no actual connection to reality. Wes Welker was one of the 2 best recievers in football this year, period, unless you bring in Megatron or Fitzgerald replacing him means getting worse.

 

[UK_Pat37]

So the answer is to strengthen them on the outside and weaken them through the middle? LOL The OL will love that formula.

Weaken them over the midddle? We're too strong over the middle. If anything that's all we can do!

That'#s my point with Welker...he doesn't stretch good defense...teams that generate enough with their front four have it easy against us and Welker is half the reason...if we didn't have a decent O Line we'd be screwed. We have no high or speed at the split end position.

IMO Welker has played more split end than his traditional slot since the bringing in of the 2 TE formations.

 

[Ivan]

You're missing all my points, but I'm not going to call you a moron for thinking it

Gotta give me credit..I didn't use madden as an example

It isn't personal UK, I have nothing against you, but your "points" imo aren't actually points at all. His size is irrelevant, and saying he can't stretch the field without acknowledging that the receivers you want to bring in can't do most of what Welker can. Saying that he limits the offense is flat out crazy, he brings more to their offense than 99% of receivers can. we have heard all those "points" for years and they have all been proven wrong, over and over and over again.


My apology for lumping you in with any idiot who invokes Madden, that was cruel and unusual.

 

[UK_Pat37]

And 95% of receivers can't do what Welker does, even if some of them can "stretch the field." You guys are absolutely fixated on what Welker supposedly can't do but don't even consider the fact that most of the receivers you want to replace him with could never do what he does for the Patriots offense, and I guarantee you that if you asked Tom Brady if there is any other receiver in football he would rather be throwing to he would tell you there isn't anyone he would rather have, and that;s not out off man love it is out of the realization of just how important Welker is to this offense.

The pro Welker contingent has been hearing these arguments since the Patriots gave a 2nd for him to the fish and those arguing against Welker have been proven wrong every single season to a degree i have never seen before. The last time Patriot fans have been proven this wrong was when some argued for keeping Bledsoe because Brady simply didn't have the arm Bledsoe had, and this argument is no different. Those crapping on Welker are 100% wrong and that has been proven absolutely, they might as well be saying the Patriots would have been better off with Bledsoe, he's unstoppable in Madden. Imagine if the Patriots brought back Bledsoe and Moss, they could stretch the Maddeen field and no Madden defense could stop them, then bring in Colston and Garcon and they would win 365 Madden Lombardis a year. Wow, how awesome would that be.


If some take this personally my apology, but I have completely had it with the fantasy football GM's and Maddenites making fantasy arguments that have no actual connection to reality. Wes Welker was one of the 2 best recievers in football this year, period, unless you bring in Megatron or Fitzgerald replacing him means getting worse.

I don't agree but we could go around in circles all day long with this!

I do think it's a tad unfair to label people who don't think with the grain as 'morons' or 'fantasy football GM's and Maddenites' though...I've seen a few arguments for moving on from Welker and the logic is there IMO...just like there is logic with your argument also.

It's an interesting debate Don't start labeling people because you think you're right and you don;'t agree with the other perception.