What bothers me most: Our "conservative" defense

[Dagg]

I agree this defense is tough to watch. Still, 16 points on the road in the division should be an automatic W for this team.

QUOTE]

^ This....the issue with the first 2 games isnt the defense its execution by the offense and failure to get 7 instead of 3. (PERIOD)

 

[patsfan-1982]

i know every one is calling for the blitz i im one of them

but we dont watch dose corners in practice

we just see them in 2 deep and think they are great

maybe they cant do it one on one i think BB knows what he is doing

 

[upstater1]

I remember INTs back then. Now...nah so mush

Well, Ty Law is gone...

But... our second best interception year of the decade was in 2006. 2007 was a pretty good year as well. The three worst years were 2005 (10 intercepts), 2008 (14) and 2002 (18). That wasn't far off from the 2004 Super Bowl year of 2004.

If we only have 10 this year, I'll agree with you that we are missing something, but given our improved secondary, I'm betting we'll do a lot better than that.

 

[vyrago]

I agree this defense is tough to watch. Still, 16 points on the road in the division should be an automatic W for this team.

QUOTE]

^ This....the issue with the first 2 games isnt the defense its execution by the offense and failure to get 7 instead of 3. (PERIOD)

Agreed. Convert just 2 of the 3 FGs to TDs and the Pats win

 

[mayoclinic]

Let's get this straight: Brady rocks. I trust he will do what he can to right the ship.

Our offense stunk, but we all know that Brady does this at least once a year: for whatever reason he chooses a single game to play like crap in, does nothing right, and then comes back the next week to be Tom Terrific. Every year. I can't explain it, but he does it.. it's like clockwork. Hopefully he's laid his traditional yearly egg and it's all up from here.

While last night's problems were clearly mainly on the back of the offense, our defense managed to once again illustrate its biggest problem, and the Jets defense was able to show THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE.

Our defense is way, way too conservative. Worse, it's irrationally conservative, because when we're conservative we tend to fail. We can't do conservative well, yet we stick to it.

I'm talking about the "3rd-and-13 disease" that our defense has.

Whenever it's 3rd and 15 or 3rd and 20, the opposition makes the play. I now consider "3rd and long" to be automatic for opposing offenses.

It's the same every time: our defense drops back and our corners dance around a bit. We decide NOT to blitz (because we can't), and then our opponents make the simple throw and our DBs look like tards.

Seemingly every time. Every game. Season after season.

It's emblematic of a much larger problem -- a complete lack of aggression defensively. We're like a bunch of kittens out there. I watch the raiders play defense, and while they're technically poor, they are aggressive and have been incredibly effective so far. Ditto the Jets.

We need to get a LOT more aggressive on defense. We need to be able to blitz heavily, we need to apply pressure, we need to hit more, fight more. Rodney Harrison knew best how to play defense: full force.

As long as we keep play calling and prancing around like kittens, we're never going to get any meaningful pressure on other quarterbacks, and in a pass-happy league they will continue to pick apart our DBs.... and every time it's 3rd and 16, I'll once again say out loud to my wife "here comes their first down!"

The defensive coaches had different game plans for the two weeks. The idea is always to take away on thing and keep their offense under 20. This is a reasonable goal for such a re-vamped defense.

Last week our goal was to contain the two top receivers, not an easy job with new guys against top receivers. There were SIX sacks, two called back. But for folks here that is not enough pressure. RESULT - Buffalo offense 18

This week our goal was to contain the run, not easy without Mayo in the middle. The idea was to depend on the secondary to prevent scores.
RESULT - Jets offense 16

The defense will have much worse games this year, and they will have better.
=====================

Complain about the defense as much as you want. Our team is 1-1, probably headed to 2-2 because our offense isn't ready for prime time.

What bothers me most is insulting posters who don't have a clue what they're talking about. The kittens stopped 3rd and 13 as well as 3rd and 28 and 2nd and 22 and all but 3 rd down attempts all afternoon. They did that by disrupting Sanchez via sacks and strip sacks and forced fumbles and solid pressure throughout the first half.

What bothers me the most is the kicking coverage sucks. We gave the JETS a short field (45) 3 of 5 posessions in the second half. What bothers me more is we're in perpetual denial about out inconsistent pass and run blocking.

I have to say, I pretty agree with the OP, and I'm not sure what is "insulting" about it. It's not insulting to anyone on this site, and the the only term that is remotely disrespectful is the use of the term "kitten".

I'm pleased with the defensive players' general level of play so far. But I'm very discouraged by the overall defensive gameplan and approach. We have a lot of potential weapons on defense and the ability to throw a lot of different schemes at people to create a lot of havoc, and all we seem to do is run a basic vanilla defense. I thought by this time I would see AD and Burgess coming off the edges, safety and CB blitzes from Meriweather and Butler, moving Brace and possibly Pryor around on the DL, etc. And I haven't seen much of that. The players have made plays, but the defensive scheme hasn't maximized their ability to make impact plays and cause disruption.

The defense has been good, and hasn't been the reason for our record. But it could be so much more, and seeing Rex Ryan come in and get the Jets to play like an elite defensive team after 3 months together highlights how much better we could be - I agree, this is how it should be done. TB was obviously rattled in the 2nd half by all of the defensive pressure. Mark Sanchez was not. One team was "contained". The other was shut down. I wonder which one won.

If our offense plays up to par we win the game. No doubt about it. But our defense is still capable of much more, and, frankly, it's deathly boring. And it doesn't intimidate anyone.

Our defense didn't lose the game. The Jets defense won the game. Hmm. Think about it. Maybe a defense which just "doesn't lose" games won't be enough.

 

[supafly]

Well, Ty Law is gone...

But... our second best interception year of the decade was in 2006. 2007 was a pretty good year as well. The three worst years were 2005 (10 intercepts), 2008 (14) and 2002 (18). That wasn't far off from the 2004 Super Bowl year of 2004.

If we only have 10 this year, I'll agree with you that we are missing something, but given our improved secondary, I'm betting we'll do a lot better than that.

It's funny that you mention those stats, upstater.

2006--up 21-3 in AFCCG, would've/should've beat Bears in SB
2007--16-0 + SB

Funny how having a shutdown corner can lead to such success

2005--10-6 season, lucky to have weak division and playoff spot--loss DEN
2002--9-7 season, no playoffs
2008--although 11-5 still no playoffs

 

[Steve1iron]

Same post as other thread

The defense has not been the same since Romeo Crennel left and Dean Pees arrived. RC used to play more of a physical, pressure defense. Pees plays a plain vanilla prevent type of D that just doesn't work. We use to say that it was a bend / don't break defense, but more often than not it prevents us from being effective and disruptive.

Sanchez sat back in the pocket in the 2nd half with little to no pressure. If there was a time to pressure the QB it was yesterday with a rookie in the pocket. We need to become more agressive with the defense and stop playing not to lose.

 

[upstater1]

It's funny that you mention those stats, upstater.

2006--up 21-3 in AFCCG, would've/should've beat Bears in SB
2007--16-0 + SB

Funny how having a shutdown corner can lead to such success

2005--10-6 season, lucky to have weak division and playoff spot--loss DEN
2002--9-7 season, no playoffs
2008--although 11-5 still no playoffs

But, you left out 2004? A very weak year for INTs.

Don't get me wrong, I love INTs. I just think the defensive philosophy hasn't changed. I do think that maybe some of the defensive calls have changed. A DC has to mix his calls as well and be unpredictable. But that doesn't mean BLITZ which is something this team just hasn't done much under Belichick.

In fact, I remember them getting burned on blitzes more than I do causing INTs or sacking the QB. Can anyone say, Hobbs isolated on the WR?

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: What bothers me most: Our kitten defense

What bothers me most is insulting posters who don't have a clue what they're talking about. The kittens stopped 3rd and 13 as well as 3rd and 28 and 2nd and 22 and all but 3 rd down attempts all afternoon. They did that by disrupting Sanchez via sacks and strip sacks and forced fumbles and solid pressure throughout the first half.

What bothers me the most is the kicking coverage sucks. We gave the JETS a short field (45) 3 of 5 posessions in the second half. What bothers me more is we're in perpetual denial about out inconsistent pass and run blocking.

I agree with you about the inconsistent Pass and Run blocking. Its like the start of last year all over again. I really wish the Pats would stay with the blocking scheme they used to finish out the season last year. That was the one they dominated with. That was the one that allowed them to rack up a ton of rushing yards and allowed Cassel to get his huge contract this year.

I agree about the special teams. Leon Washington is one of the best in the league, but WOW, he was gashing them all over.

 

[supafly]

But, you left out 2004? A very weak year for INTs.

Don't get me wrong, I love INTs. I just think the defensive philosophy hasn't changed. I do think that maybe some of the defensive calls have changed. A DC has to mix his calls as well and be unpredictable. But that doesn't mean BLITZ which is something this team just hasn't done much under Belichick.

In fact, I remember them getting burned on blitzes more than I do causing INTs or sacking the QB. Can anyone say, Hobbs isolated on the WR?

Good point, as I posted on another thread earlier, there is obviously a reason why we aren't blitzing, it's not just blind coincidence. BB knows the strengths and weaknesses of the defense, and will use them accordingly.

 

[DaBruinz]

Our passive, "lie down and take it like a man" defense is sickening.

We start playing prevent on their 20 yard line! Sanchez, a rookie QB, has ALL DAY to pick us apart. We made this kid look awesome...where was the pressure? Sit back in a zone and get raped?

I find your characterization of the defense to be as lacking as the Patriots offense was in the Red Zone yesterday.

You clearly don't know what the prevent defense looks like.

 

[cstjohn17]

It does drive you crazy, but so does Delta O'Neal watching Wrs run into the end zone. Watching the Jets you can really see the need for strong corner coverage in a blitz scheme.

Right now the defense may keep you in the game but it won't win you the game. The fundamentals need to really improve, there were a lot of missed tackles in weeks 1 & 2.

Watching the games I haven't been that impressed or disapointed with the D, IMO they will be about average. Preventing big plays and keeping opponents under 20 will win more than it loses. All is not lost, but the 2005 Bears are not walking through that door.

 

[Dagg]

Woah woah woah no one wants to see Deltha Oneal on an island we tried it a few times last year and it was an easy 6, thats why nobody complained last year about the vanilla flavor.

We havent done much at all this year but hey lets test these guys out I think Bodden can handle it. Maybe we can move from Vanilla to Vanilla with some rainbow sprinkles with a few blitzes

 

[jeffbiologist]

Before last season I made a post about losing "playmakers". Samuel, Gay and Wilson among others didnt come back and my guess of more "big plays" against us and fewer INTs held up. This year we lose Bruschi, Seau, Seymour, Vrabel, Harrison and Hobbs among others....you better believe we are going to have fewer "big plays" for us(INTs) and more against us again! From last year's class I'd say only Mayo was a playmaker and he is gone. Even with all that turmoil we gave up only 16 points. Big plays win games, and this defense will be measured with that stick so long as Brady is here. Its been YEARS, plural, since our defense has made a stop to win a meaningful game. We have won more games on ST stops thatn on defense.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

I really can't complain with the defense, but they rarely save us. They could have saved us yesterday and didn't. They weren't the reason we lost, but they could have not let the jets off of the hook when we had them pinned in their own territory. We could have also benefited from not giving up something like 40 yards on three straight running plays.

Tully seems to get pressure regularly. I'd like to see more of him on the line and less of Mr. Green, assuming we are in the 4-3. Even the 3-4 on passing downs.

 

[mayoclinic]

I really can't complain with the defense, but [Bthey rarely save us. They could have saved us yesterday and didn't. [/B] They weren't the reason we lost, but they could have not let the jets off of the hook when we had them pinned in their own territory. We could have also benefited from not giving up something like 40 yards on three straight running plays.

Tully seems to get pressure regularly. I'd like to see more of him on the line and less of Mr. Green, assuming we are in the 4-3. Even the 3-4 on passing downs.

Our defense didn't lose the game, but the Jets defense won the game. Big difference. I haven't seen our defense "win" games in a long time.

 

[skinnydog]

In the years we won the Superbowl the defense was a bigger reason we won than the offense or at least as big. In those years the defense won games a lot. There always seemed to be big game changing play from the defense. There were years we led the league in red zone defense. Now, I'm surprised when the other team doesn't come away with a touch down. This year the defense has been Ok against 2 mediocre QBs, but both had QB ratings over 100.

The Pats played bend but don't break in past years but under Peas there's a lot of bend. And it's not as if the linebackers and D-Backs keep the play in front of them and then try to seperate the receive from the ball. There are no jarring hits. It's mostly keep the play in front and then try to drag the runner down.

There was plenty of blitzing on those bend but don't break defenses run by Romeo. What was really frusterating about the 3 and 13 the Jets converted from deep in their own zone was that the Pats caled a timeout before the play and all they came up with for a defense against a rookie was a 3 man rush and a soft zone. Sanchez had plenty of time and hits an open man underneath and they make the first down. Yeah the defense played OK, but Superbowl defenses make plays.

The Pats efense used to confuse the hell out of QBs like Manning and against a Rookie, not so much. When is the last game where you could say the Pats defense gave the other team a look they had never seen and confused the QB for an entire game or how about just a quarter?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I have to say, I pretty agree with the OP, and I'm not sure what is "insulting" about it. It's not insulting to anyone on this site, and the the only term that is remotely disrespectful is the use of the term "kitten".

I'm pleased with the defensive players' general level of play so far. But I'm very discouraged by the overall defensive gameplan and approach. We have a lot of potential weapons on defense and the ability to throw a lot of different schemes at people to create a lot of havoc, and all we seem to do is run a basic vanilla defense. I thought by this time I would see AD and Burgess coming off the edges, safety and CB blitzes from Meriweather and Butler, moving Brace and possibly Pryor around on the DL, etc. And I haven't seen much of that. The players have made plays, but the defensive scheme hasn't maximized their ability to make impact plays and cause disruption.

The defense has been good, and hasn't been the reason for our record. But it could be so much more, and seeing Rex Ryan come in and get the Jets to play like an elite defensive team after 3 months together highlights how much better we could be - I agree, this is how it should be done. TB was obviously rattled in the 2nd half by all of the defensive pressure. Mark Sanchez was not. One team was "contained". The other was shut down. I wonder which one won.

If our offense plays up to par we win the game. No doubt about it. But our defense is still capable of much more, and, frankly, it's deathly boring. And it doesn't intimidate anyone.

Our defense didn't lose the game. The Jets defense won the game. Hmm. Think about it. Maybe a defense which just "doesn't lose" games won't be enough.

If our defense was capable of much more BB would be featuring it. He's a funny guy that way, he won't put players on the field in situations he is not convinced they are capable of handling. This defense is clearly in transition and while there may be some young talent capable of emerging they aren't consistently there yet. There are too many new moving parts even before Mayo went down to do what the 2003 -2004 or even a veteran 2001 unit was capable of doing (and just at the end of that cinderella season...).

The defense got burned in one series that started almost at midfield... They had a strong first half that included multiple three and outs, forced fumbles, strip sacks. They had a solid 4th quarter and got the ball back for the offense multiple times. You gotta walk before you run, and they did a damn good job on Sunday given all the changes and losses they are working through.

Last week playmakers stepped up and stopped Buffalo with two sacks...only they ended up extending drives and costing 30 yards and $5K in fines.

 

[mayoclinic]

If our defense was capable of much more BB would be featuring it. He's a funny guy that way, he won't put players on the field in situations he is not convinced they are capable of handling. This defense is clearly in transition and while there may be some young talent capable of emerging they aren't consistently there yet. There are too many new moving parts even before Mayo went down to do what the 2003 -2004 or even a veteran 2001 unit was capable of doing (and just at the end of that cinderella season...).

The defense got burned in one series that started almost at midfield... They had a strong first half that included multiple three and outs, forced fumbles, strip sacks. They had a solid 4th quarter and got the ball back for the offense multiple times. You gotta walk before you run, and they did a damn good job on Sunday given all the changes and losses they are working through.

Last week playmakers stepped up and stopped Buffalo with two sacks...only they ended up extending drives and costing 30 yards and $5K in fines.

How do we know they're not capable of more? We've seen little of Derrick Burgess so far, little of Meriweather blitzing like he did last year, with a much weaker secondary. Maybe we need to put guys out there and see what they can do instead of just bending until we bend over. As for the two sacks against Buffalo, those were veterans, and both were questionable calls, especially the Wilfork penalty. And I'll take staying aggressive and getting a few of those if that's what it costs to stop other teams from getting into a rhythm.

 

[Patspsycho]

If our defense was capable of much more BB would be featuring it. He's a funny guy that way, he won't put players on the field in situations he is not convinced they are capable of handling. This defense is clearly in transition and while there may be some young talent capable of emerging they aren't consistently there yet.

I think this hits the nail on the head. This really is a D in transition.

Also, just as you try to avoid throwing rookies into the fire because you don't want to destroy their confidence, I think the same thing is true of an unit.

BB runs a complex defense- and right now only the DL is the experienced unit. Even Sanders and Merriweather are just in their 2nd full year. Wilhite only came into stride in the second half of last season.

I think midseason is when we should start to worry if the D hasn't come together yet.