Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[Nunchucks]

In what sort of a world is making an off-color joke about someone's sister worse than violence?

I'm lost in this thread I'm gonna go hang out in the gay NFL player thread.

You respect other people's family. That is just what my friends and I believe.

 

[upstater1]

If the epithets and insults were truly meant in an abusive and counter productive way, then why did other teammates back Incognito, with one even saying (in regard to Martin) "I have no idea what he's doing here"? I have yet to get an answer on this.

They're afraid of Incognito and his pals.

The St. Louis Ram that went off on Incognito was conspicuous in the sense that he didn't do it back when they were teammates.

 

[AzorianPats]

Way to many hard ass internet tough guys in this thread

 

[BradyFTW!]

My argument wasn't a straw man at all. Someone posted a claim about when the so-called harassment should have stopped. I made a perfectly legitimate comparison of speech/offense and, in the same reply, I noted that the players didn't know that their so-called harassment was the problem because Martin hadn't told them.

Now, if you've got something substantive to critique about my pointing out the difference in how those two items (speech/freedom from offense) are viewed, feel free to share. If not, this particular horse has been beaten to death, and the claims of "no point at all" (before your edit) and straw man are simply incorrect.

You're still miles away from having an actual point, but I'll play ball.

For starters, legal precedent is pretty clear that the right to free spech does not invalidate claims of workplace harassment. As an attorney, you should probably know that. We could spend all day debating whether or not that should be the case (and we'd largely agree, I bet: by default, I'm wary of any restrictions on first amendment rights), but the fact remains that the law is what it is. If "but US law holds free speech to take precedence over your right to a harassment-free workplace" is the position that you're taking, then you're simply wrong. For better or worse, legal precedent says otherwise.

And, since it apparently hasn't sunk in, I'll yet again point out that you're the only person here who seems to care about the nonexistent legal implications of what happened. The legality of Incognito's actions are not in question, so whatever the law holds to be more important is very clearly irrelevant anyway.

 

[Snake Eyes]

He didn't need to make a statement.

Every tweet a player makes is because the NFL required to do so?

 

[fumbrunner]

My biggest problem with this whole thing is that Martin went along with all these jokes, texts, etc and never once seemed to infer to Incognito that it bothered him. The text trails between the two of them seem like two guys busting chops.

Any locker room where there are dozens of players will have cliques and guys will generally navigate to those that are similar to oneself.

I'm sure if Martin gave Incognito a few GFYs, their relationship would not be as "tight", despite both being OL.

I honestly believe that Incognito had NO IDEA of the "impact" his statements were having on Martin.

Blown way out of proportion by a weak-minded player and his opportunistic agent.

 

[Ring 6]

No.

Please make it stop.

We're not trying to get rid of humor, or insensitive humor, or inappropriate jokes. Please point to one of us saying that.

We're simply saying that we should be able to objectively evaluate when otherwise good-natured ribbing has become counter-productive and mean-spirited. I'll even take the mean-spirited part of the equation out of it. This is an NFL locker room, and I'm not even going to bother with that aspect of it, and if you've noticed carefully, I haven't made that the issue. I've made the productive and strong locker room the issue.

There's been a lot of goal-post moving and straw men in this thread, and its coming from the anti-PC crowd. I'm not some humor-hating robot just because I think it's not super great for an NFL team when two offensive linemen end up off the team because of hazing gone wrong. Your assumptions are not well founded.

I think what you are missing is that the things that occured are commonplace. So the idea that lashing red light goes off when the line is crossed is naive.
I think the best way to describe it is that there are a lot of Richie Incognitos, and only a few Jonathan Martins.
What I mean is that Incognitos actions are not unique, they are part of the fabric of a male locker room in a violent sport. What happened to Martin has happened to thousands of players.
Martin is the unique one in that he is the first to have these lockerroom 'traditions' cause mental grief and walk away. (At least that has been made public).
That doesn't mean the treatment Martin received was fair, but it means it was historically accepted as within bounds.

Sometimes things happen and there doesn't need to be a detailed analysis and societal rethinking.
Something that is common in an environment went wrong because the 2 people involved did not mesh well. It happens. I don't know why we have to insist on a bigger meaning.

 

[Patsrock]

First, RI considered them jokes. So if you made jokes about someone who later told you that they almost got fired for screwing up on their job and thought about suicide, that would lead you to stop joking with them? Really?
Martin never connected the jokes with the suicidal thoughts.
I certainly respect watching out for the person, but I dont know that I would think it means stop kidding with them when they have not said it bothers them.

Only thing I am going to comment on. You don't know that and when a person who is suffering from untreated depression is not going to 100% open up and tell everything that is bothering them or hurting them.

 

[upstater1]

Every tweet a player makes is because the NFL required to do so?

Huh? I'm saying TJ Lang clearly is saying that NFL lockerrooms are not all like that because he believes it, not because the NFL put him up to it.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm lost in this thread I'm gonna go hang out in the gay NFL player thread.

Wow. Are you for real?

 

[Nunchucks]

According to the Wells Report, Incognito initially told investigators “that he did not know why he had been fined for ‘breaking Jmart,’ but upon being told that the notations appeared to be in his handwriting Incognito did not dispute that ‘breaking Jmart’ meant causing Martin to have an emotional reaction in response to taunting.”

The report alleges that Incognito told investigators that the notations in the notebook for his fine, Garner’s bonus and series of fines for Martin were all logged after Martin left the team.

The report also alleges that Incognito sent text messages to Garner and center Mike Pouncey on November 3 asking them to “destroy” the notebook.

Incognito, the Wells Report claimed, told investigators “that he wanted the fine book destroyed because he believed it would be ‘misunderstood’ if it was reviewed outside of the offensive line.”

Then, the Wells Report shared its opinion as to why Incognito wanted the book to disappear.

“We believe Incognito’s concerns were well founded — not because the fine book would be ‘misunderstood,’ but because, viewed in context, it would prove that Incognito was fully aware that the verbal taunting had caused Martin to break emotionally,” the Wells Report stated.

Wrote the report’s authors: “Incognito’s attempt to destroy the fine book is a classic example of evidence demonstrating “consciousness of wrongdoing.”

Rumor Mill | ProFootballTalk

Yeah, keep on defending the guy.

 

[Deus Irae]

You're still miles away from having an actual point, but I'll play ball.

For starters, legal precedent is pretty clear that the right to free spech does not invalidate claims of workplace harassment. As an attorney, you should probably know that.

Since I didn't make the claim that it was, I'll note that it's you bringing out the straw man.

And, since it apparently hasn't sunk in, I'll yet again point out that you're the only person here who seems to care about the nonexistent legal implications of what happened. The legality of Incognito's actions are not in question, so whatever the law holds to be more important is very clearly irrelevant.

Actually, I mentioned it only as one part of a post in response to BradyManny, who was making a claim of when the alleged harassment should have stopped. You and BradyManny lost your minds over it so I responded, and I've noted that deadness of the horse, yet you've just posted on it again, so pretending that I'm the only person who seems to care about it is incredibly disingenuous of you.

Let the dead horse be.

 

[BradyManny]

No you're right, except for the part where I was replying to someone who had said exactly that.

Nope. You put words in Mayoclinic's mouth. He had a very rational post and you responded with hyperbole.

 

[Kontradiction]

Konta, honestly, I think every person in this thread gets that. No one is arguing that point.

What you and others are missing is that STILL, it went overboard. Plenty of players, former players, etc. and now attorney Ted Wells all agree with this sentiment.

Except, of course, the teammates that... again... backed Incognito.

 

[Deus Irae]

“Mr. Wells’ NFL report is replete with errors,” Schamel said in a statement issued to PFT. “The facts do not support a conclusion that Jonathan Martin’s mental health, drug use, or on-field performance issues were related to the treatment by his teammates.

“It is disappointing that Mr. Wells would have gotten it so wrong, but not surprising. The truth, as reported by the Dolphins players and as shown by the evidence, is that Jonathan Martin was never bullied by Richie Incognito or any member of the Dolphins Offensive line. We are analyzing the entire report and will release a thorough analysis as soon as it is ready.”

Incognito?s lawyer says Wells report is ?replete with errors? | ProFootballTalk

 

[Kontradiction]

They're afraid of Incognito and his pals.

The St. Louis Ram that went off on Incognito was conspicuous in the sense that he didn't do it back when they were teammates.

So Incognito is going to rise from the ashes of his suspension and go "Godfather" on the teammates that bad mouthed him? Come on, you must know this is far fetched. The Dolphins' players didn't hold back when asked directly. If they thought this was some sort of vicious treatment to poor little Jon Martin (who is also looking at a nice pay day) instead of the routine ball busting that it was, they would have slammed Incognito.

 

[mayoclinic]

Having dealt with depression and yes I attempted suicide a few years ago myself. When you are in the mindset, you can still actually carry on at work like nothing is going on and still deal with some day to day stuff. But is it a night when you are alone in bed is when the thoughts get into you head. All it takes in one thing the next day to make you snap and try to end all the pain.

When I attempted suicide I was going thru a divorce, just lost my job to budget cuts, suffering from un-medicated depression and lost all the will to live. One night I decided to take all my seizure medication at once and drank a lot of vodka. Depression sucks and gets people in different ways. I was lucky that my roommate found me rushed me to the hospital. I finally got the help I needed and was afraid to seek because of the stigma of depression. 2 years later I am doing good, got my life in order, take my meds and see my therapist and psychologist weekly.

Please don't make light of depression and suicidal thoughts they are real and very hard to deal with.

Thanks for sharing. Courageous post.

I dealt with depression 20+ years ago when I was in medical school. Not as bad as yours, but not much fun. Hid it from everyone, managed to get through though it was a struggle. Never attempted suicide, but certainly thought about it a lot. Not a period of my life I want to re-experience.

I personally find all this talk of Martin being "thin skinned", "over sensitive" and a "head case" extremely offensive. He's quite tough in his own way, it's just different form the macho posturing that some seem to equate with toughness.

 

[Patsrock]

Bullies,racists,rapists,dui manslaughters are great locker room people. A gay man wants to play is bad locker room presence.

PC is not the problem is this world, it is the acceptance of a Bullies,racists,rapists,dui manslaughters without question.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Since I didn't make the claim that it was, I'll note that it's you bringing out the straw man.

Since you apparently can't keep track of what you have and haven't claimed, I'll do you a favor and link it for you

Your claim:

I never claimed Incognito's first amendment rights were violated. I compared the level of protection we give speech to the level of protection we give to people's desire not to be offended.

The comparison that you were referring to is located here:

No, that's not the whole point. Dear God, what has become of this country? First, there is a right to free speech, but not a right to not be offended. Second, Martin himself wrote to his father that he wasn't letting his teammates know that he had a problem with this stuff.

You're demanding both a non-existent right and that people immediately develop mental telepathy

Is clearly and unambiguously wrong. Legal precedent is pretty clear that, in a situation where a reasonable person would feel harassed, the right to a harassment-free workplace takes priority over the harasser's right to free speech.

 

[Patsrock]

Thanks for sharing. Courageous post.

I dealt with depression 20+ years ago when I was in medical school. Not as bad as yours, but not much fun. Hid it from everyone, managed to get through though it was a struggle. Never attempted suicide, but certainly thought about it a lot. Not a period of my life I want to re-experience.

I personally find all this talk of Martin being "thin skinned", "over sensitive" and a "head case" extremely offensive. He's quite tough in his own way, it's just different form the macho posturing that some seem to equate with toughness.

Thank You. Honestly talking about it and not hiding it is one of the main ways I get thru it. I never want to see people go thru it and if anyone here posting is having a hard time and suffering and you see this contact me. I never believed the whole it gets better from people who went thru it and helped me. But it does get better if you make it work.