Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[fnordcircle]

Well, you're lucky that your workplace tolerates that. I've worked in companies where that would be enough to at least get you called in for a talk with your boss, and quite possibly get you fired on the spot.

In any corporate environment that I'm familiar with, those kind of actions would result in mandatory counseling and possibly suspension, with repeated incidents resulting in permanent dismissal.

Well, duh. But you become friends with people and you reach a comfort level and then you develop a friendship where you become comfortable and trust each other and you let your corporate harassment guard down and act like actual human beings.

It's not like day one I walked to the front of the building and shouted 'LOOK AT MY TAINT, PIG ****ERS' or something.

Which is why I feel that what we're getting is a peek into what was a private fraternal relationship and people are rushing to call someone a racist ******* bully based only on these small peeks.

Let those of you who have never told an off-color joke or said the wrong thing on a bad day please feel free to start picking out good stones to throw but the rest of us should realize that unless you're privy to a relationship in all of its facets there's a chance we're not understanding tone and context.

 

[Ring 6]

If this were about anyone other than Incognito, I would sympathize more with Deus and Andy's argument, but how can you guys defend this? Incognito has a history.

He reminds me of the off kilter guys that were around at college. Yeah, they joked around. Yeah they were "like" the other guys, but there was always something about them that told you they might not be joking so much. Prone to violence, not aware of lines you should never cross, the person who was most likely to get in trouble with the law, and not someone you wanted to befriend. But for some reason they were always around, lingering, tolerated. No one told him to get lost. Or they were afraid to tell him.

I'm not defending anyone, just putting it in context.
This is what happens in a locker room. Martin was offended, which is the rarity here, not what happened.
Was Incognito inappropriate? Certainly. Did the history of what he witnessed in NFL lockerrooms over the years make him think it was acceptable? Of course.

I don't think there is any claim that Martin felt he would be beaten up.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I didnt say coworker. I said things you have done. Where it occurs is not that relevant.

I'd say it's pretty relevant. When you know that your ability to succeed at doing your job is in part dependent on your ability to coexist with someone, that should affect how you conduct yourself. If it doesn't, then that's not a good thing.

So if you said those things to the wrong person, you would be Incognito.

Let me rephrase that: if I said those things to someone who was quite clearly the wrong person, and continued to do so after that person expressed the desire to commit suicide, then I would be Incognito.

Go back and read what a few of the offensive linemen subjected their assistant trainer to. If I did that to *anybody*, then yeah, I'd be an ******* who deserved what I got.

Remember the report clearly says that there was no evidence Incognito was trying to get him to quit, or cause him mental distress

He admitted that he had a bet over which player (and Martin was one of them) would 'break' first, then fined himself money for succeeding in breaking him.

(paraphrased for lack of memory) and that Incognito felt they were friends.

Based on their texts, it looks like they were friends. That definitely does complicate the issue, and it's the main reason why I'm inclined to give Incognito any benefit of the doubt re: his intentions in all of this. Lines get blurred when you're dealing with friends, I'll be the first to acknowledge that. But even having acknowledged that, he clearly crossed the line.

If you're going to say the kind of **** that he says and do the kind of **** that he does, then you have to assume responsibility for the fallout if you're so colossally stupid that you 'break' your friend. There were warning signs there, and even a stupid person like Incognito should have had no trouble picking them up.

What if those friends you made those comments to were like Martin where they knew they should say something but just wanted to make you happy so they accepted what was hurtful to them and pretended it didn't bother them.

Then that would be my fault and my problem.

I am not saying Incognito did not do stupid things.
I am saying those things are common place in that atmosphere, and to suggest he did them out of a loathing for Martin is assuming things that arent there.

I'll be the first to agree that stupid things, ballbusting, hazing, etc. happen in a locker room, and that expecting to stop them is dumb. NFL locker rooms can't realistically (and shouldn't) be held to the standards of a corporate workplace. Football players are generally meatheads, and you have to account for that.

As I clearly pointed out in my previous posts, it wouldn't surprise me if Incognito didn't fully realize how far over the line he'd gone. He may have even been well-intentioned; we all know people who have no idea where 'the line' is, and maybe he's that guy. That's part of why I'd still be fine with it if the Patriots signed him after the Dolphins cut him. But that doesn't change the fact that he's responsible for his actions.

 

[RobAllan]

I think what we have is two things:

1. A lockerroom that's trending out of control
2. An athlete with extremely thin skin

Those two scenarios can't exist together, so problems arise.

There probably should be more leeway for an NFL club than a typical professional environment. That doesn't mean they didn't go too far even in that context. There's probably a LOT of room for change in the NFL culture in general also. That doesn't necessarily mean this guy doesn't need to take some responsibility for his own inability to handle social situations common to his chosen occupation.

I'm surprised we're so quick to take sides (ie one side is right more than the other) when it's more likely both sides need significant improvement. It's no wonder wars start.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

https://twitter.com/TJLang70/status/434412931296415745

TJ Lang ‏@TJLang70 3m
Please don't stereotype NFL players for what's going on with Miami. That type of stuff is not common in other locker rooms.

Dude has clearly never played football in high school or beyond.

 

[Kontradiction]

Except that it doesn't destroy anything. But, nice try there. Maybe you should actually read the report then come back and talk. It would help you to be informed.

I read the report.

What you said...

You do realize that the person who made the statement about Incognito was actually one of the participants in the bullying, yes?

What I said...

And Tannehill... and Hartline... and Clabo... and Wallace.

Not citing other players that were involved with backing Incognito destroys your argument

The report didn't show that either of those four had participated in "bullying" Martin. Unless you can show me a report that claims that either of those four did, your point was destroyed.

 

[mayoclinic]

Well, duh. But you become friends with people and you reach a comfort level and then you develop a friendship where you become comfortable and trust each other and you let your corporate harassment guard down and act like actual human beings.

I'm sorry, I don't get the logic of this. "You become friends with people" and that allows you to make sexually explicit and offense comments about their family members, and that qualify as acting "like actual human beings". Am I missing something here?

When multiple people gang up to repeatedly denigrate and debase a third party, there's nothing "friendly" about it. And nothing acceptable. No where.

 

[Patsrock]

Having dealt with depression and yes I attempted suicide a few years ago myself. When you are in the mindset, you can still actually carry on at work like nothing is going on and still deal with some day to day stuff. But is it a night when you are alone in bed is when the thoughts get into you head. All it takes in one thing the next day to make you snap and try to end all the pain.

When I attempted suicide I was going thru a divorce, just lost my job to budget cuts, suffering from un-medicated depression and lost all the will to live. One night I decided to take all my seizure medication at once and drank a lot of vodka. Depression sucks and gets people in different ways. I was lucky that my roommate found me rushed me to the hospital. I finally got the help I needed and was afraid to seek because of the stigma of depression. 2 years later I am doing good, got my life in order, take my meds and see my therapist and psychologist weekly.

Please don't make light of depression and suicidal thoughts they are real and very hard to deal with.

 

[fnordcircle]

I'm sorry, I don't get the logic of this. "You become friends with people" and that allows you to make sexually explicit and offense comments about their family members, and that qualify as acting "like actual human beings". Am I missing something here?

Some of you must live in these weird, super-sanitized worlds where all interaction with friends and family is conducted on some clinical level only. It's like you've never busted chops or something. Seriously you're reaction is as perplexing to me as mine is to yours so I suspect there is a significant cultural disconnect.

I have lots of friends and we say vile things to each other. Not all of them, but plenty of them. I evaluate what they say based on what their intent is because that's what matters. If their intent is to joke around then everything is on the table.

2 weeks into dating my wife she made fun of me, lightheartedly, for being adopted. That's when I knew she was right for me. Because to take something that is an aspect of shame/discomfort for some people and to bring it to the light of day in a joking manner is exactly the best way to deal with it, imo.

When multiple people gang up to repeatedly denigrate and debase a third party, there's nothing "friendly" about it. And nothing acceptable. No where.

Sure but you're making an assumption that I'm not. I'm one step back from you not ready to accept that this was multiple people ganging up on a target and denigrating/debasing them because, again, we're only getting a small insight into this and we have no context.

 

[BradyManny]

Some of you must live in these weird, super-sanitized worlds where all interaction with friends and family is conducted on some clinical level only.

No.

Please make it stop.

We're not trying to get rid of humor, or insensitive humor, or inappropriate jokes. Please point to one of us saying that.

We're simply saying that we should be able to objectively evaluate when otherwise good-natured ribbing has become counter-productive and mean-spirited. I'll even take the mean-spirited part of the equation out of it. This is an NFL locker room, and I'm not even going to bother with that aspect of it, and if you've noticed carefully, I haven't made that the issue. I've made the productive and strong locker room the issue.

There's been a lot of goal-post moving and straw men in this thread, and its coming from the anti-PC crowd. I'm not some humor-hating robot just because I think it's not super great for an NFL team when two offensive linemen end up off the team because of hazing gone wrong. Your assumptions are not well founded.

 

[Kontradiction]

Some of you must live in these weird, super-sanitized worlds where all interaction with friends and family is conducted on some clinical level only. It's like you've never busted chops or something. Seriously you're reaction is as perplexing to me as mine is to yours so I suspect there is a significant cultural disconnect.

I have lots of friends and we say vile things to each other. Not all of them, but plenty of them. I evaluate what they say based on what their intent is because that's what matters. If their intent is to joke around then everything is on the table.

2 weeks into dating my wife she made fun of me, lightheartedly, for being adopted. That's when I knew she was right for me. Because to take something that is an aspect of shame/discomfort for some people and to bring it to the light of day in a joking manner is exactly the best way to deal with it, imo.



Sure but you're making an assumption that I'm not. I'm one step back from you not ready to accept that this was multiple people ganging up on a target and denigrating/debasing them because, again, we're only getting a small insight into this and we have no context.

That's because you and your friends are males that have known each other for a while and like to bust one another's balls. I can't tell you how many times I've been dealt a joke about my mother or how many times I've dealt them out. People's mistake in this thread is that they are trying to apply what's socially accepted in the world to an NFL locker room filled with what another poster stated were "53 steriod infused type-A young males". It doesn't work like that. What is and isn't acceptable in society may be highly acceptable in an NFL locker room, which is why several Dolphins players (which includes African Americans) directly backed Incognito when asked.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd say it's pretty relevant. When you know that your ability to succeed at doing your job is in part dependent on your ability to coexist with someone, that should affect how you conduct yourself. If it doesn't, then that's not a good thing.

We will have to agree to disagree. In this part of the discussion we are(or at least I am) talking about the inappropriateness of the behavior on a personal level.

Let me rephrase that: if I said those things to someone who was quite clearly the wrong person, and continued to do so after that person expressed the desire to commit suicide, then I would be Incognito.

First, RI considered them jokes. So if you made jokes about someone who later told you that they almost got fired for screwing up on their job and thought about suicide, that would lead you to stop joking with them? Really?
Martin never connected the jokes with the suicidal thoughts.
I certainly respect watching out for the person, but I dont know that I would think it means stop kidding with them when they have not said it bothers them.

Go back and read what a few of the offensive linemen subjected their assistant trainer to. If I did that to *anybody*, then yeah, I'd be an ******* who deserved what I got.

I'm not sure what your point is. There poor behavior materialized as racism. There are many other poor behaviors that are just as bad.
We were talking about RI/JM though.

He admitted that he had a bet over which player (and Martin was one of them) would 'break' first, then fined himself money for succeeding in breaking him.

We do not know the definition of break.

Based on their texts, it looks like they were friends. That definitely does complicate the issue, and it's the only reason why I'm trying to give Incognito any benefit of the doubt at all. Lines get blurred when you're dealing with friends, I'll be the first to acknowledge that. But even having acknowledged that, he clearly crossed the line.

At what point do you think he crossed the line?
I just see a bunch of things that are not uncommon in a lockerrom that many players would have laughed off. I don't know how he knew Martin took it so hurtfully.
If you are saying making the jokes that are common is crossing the line because someone could be offended, I think that is naive. It would be nice if humans were like that but they aren't, especially the ones in an FL lockerroom

If you're going to say the kind of **** that he says and do the kind of **** that he does, then you have to assume responsibility for the fallout if you're so colossally stupid that you 'break' your friend. There were warning signs there, and even a stupid person like Incognito should have had no trouble picking them up.

Again, if similar things have routinely happened in his 10 years in the NFL, then how would he really expect this. I think he did take responsibility, by the way, when the shlt hit the fan, did he not?

Then that would be my fault and my problem.

Thats all I am saying. Everyone (almost everyone at least) has been in a position where they have done or said things that if the audience were wrong (in this case Martin) you would look like Incognito.
That doesn't make him right but to categorize him as deviously plotting to mentally abuse Jonathan Martin, and implying he felt it could cause suicide and continuing is misinterpreting the facts.

I'll be the first to agree that stupid things, ballbusting, hazing, etc. happen in a locker room, and that expecting to stop them is dumb. NFL locker rooms can't realistically (and shouldn't) be held to the standards of a corporate workplace. Football players are generally meatheads, and you have to account for that.

An important factor here.

As I clearly pointed out in my previous posts, it wouldn't surprise me if Incognito didn't fully realize how far over the line he'd gone. He may have even been well-intentioned; we all know people who have no idea where 'the line' is, and maybe he's that guy. That's part of why I'd still be fine with it if the Patriots signed him after the Dolphins cut him. But that doesn't change the fact that he's responsible for his actions.

I agree.
There is a difference between responsible for what you caused and causing it malicious and intentionally, which I see as the main divergence in this thread.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Dude has clearly never played football in high school or beyond.

Seeing how the NFL just said “this is unacceptable” do you really think a player in the NFL is going to say anything to the contrary?

 

[fnordcircle]

No.

Please make it stop.

We're not trying to get rid of humor, or insensitive humor, or inappropriate jokes. Please point to one of us saying that.

We're simply saying that we should be able to objectively evaluate when otherwise good-natured ribbing has become counter-productive and mean-spirited. I'll even take the mean-spirited part of the equation out of it. This is an NFL locker room, and I'm not even going to bother with that aspect of it, and if you've noticed carefully, I haven't made that the issue. I've made the productive and strong locker room the issue.

There's been a lot of goal-post moving and straw men in this thread, and its coming from the anti-PC crowd. I'm not some humor-hating robot just because I think it's not super great for an NFL team when two offensive linemen end up off the team because of hazing gone wrong. Your assumptions are not well founded.

No you're right, except for the part where I was replying to someone who had said exactly that.

I'm sorry, I don't get the logic of this. "You become friends with people" and that allows you to make sexually explicit and offense comments about their family members, and that qualify as acting "like actual human beings". Am I missing something here?

I think it's silly to assume all of the people here on either side of the debate are moving in lock step. I think Andy and I agree on some things and I don't even know what Deus is on about.

 

[fnordcircle]

That's because you and your friends are males that have known each other for a while and like to bust one another's balls. I can't tell you how many times I've been dealt a joke about my mother or how many times I've dealt them out. People's mistake in this thread is that they are trying to apply what's socially accepted in the world to an NFL locker room filled with what another poster stated were "53 steriod infused type-A young males". It doesn't work like that. What is and isn't acceptable in society may be highly acceptable in an NFL locker room, which is why several Dolphins players (which includes African Americans) directly backed Incognito when asked.

Pretty much.

I've heard so many "I am going to **** your '(Sister|Daughter|Wife|Dog)' jokes that the thing Incognito said about banging Martin's sister was almost like, obligatory.

 

[Nunchucks]

This is funny, I went to college with a bunch of guys, we still keep in touch, are in a 16 team fantasy football league together and we talk a lot of smack. Most of the guys played high school sports, football/baseball/soccer/basket ball...We partied together all through college....made a big ruckus at parties, I mean you get 20+ guys who hang together at a random keg party....there is gonna be trouble.

If anybody said anything about somebody's sister, they would get punched in the face....certain topics have always been off-limits.

And let me assure you, there is plenty of ribbing going on...it is a constant, but there was and is a line that people did/do not cross without expecting violence.

 

[BradyManny]

What is and isn't acceptable in society may be highly acceptable in an NFL locker room, which is why several Dolphins players (which includes African Americans) directly backed Incognito when asked.

Konta, honestly, I think every person in this thread gets that. No one is arguing that point.

What you and others are missing is that STILL, it went overboard. Plenty of players, former players, etc. and now attorney Ted Wells all agree with this sentiment.

 

[fnordcircle]

This is funny, I went to college with a bunch of guys, we still keep in touch, are in a 16 team fantasy football league together and we talk a lot of smack. Most of the guys played high school sports, football/baseball/soccer/basket ball...We partied together all through college....made a big ruckus at parties, I mean you get 20+ guys who hang together at a random keg party....there is gonna be trouble.

If anybody said anything about somebody's sister, they would get punched in the face....certain topics have always been off-limits.

And let me assure you, there is plenty of ribbing going on...it is a constant, but there was and is a line that people did not cross without expecting violence.

In what sort of a world is making an off-color joke about someone's sister worse than violence?

I'm lost in this thread I'm gonna go hang out in the gay NFL player thread.

 

[Kontradiction]

No.

Please make it stop.

We're not trying to get rid of humor, or insensitive humor, or inappropriate jokes. Please point to one of us saying that.

We're simply saying that we should be able to objectively evaluate when otherwise good-natured ribbing has become counter-productive and mean-spirited. I'll even take the mean-spirited part of the equation out of it. This is an NFL locker room, and I'm not even going to bother with that aspect of it, and if you've noticed carefully, I haven't made that the issue. I've made the productive and strong locker room the issue.

There's been a lot of goal-post moving and straw men in this thread, and its coming from the anti-PC crowd. I'm not some humor-hating robot just because I think it's not super great for an NFL team when two offensive linemen end up off the team because of hazing gone wrong. Your assumptions are not well founded.

If the epithets and insults were truly meant in an abusive and counter productive way, then why did other teammates back Incognito, with one even saying (in regard to Martin) "I have no idea what he's doing here"? I have yet to get an answer on this.

 

[upstater1]

Seeing how the NFL just said “this is unacceptable” do you really think a player in the NFL is going to say anything to the contrary?

He didn't need to make a statement.