We won't do anthing in FA?

[PATSNUTme]

I could list a bunch more. The point is that when you rely on players acquired on the cheap to play important roles on your team, you sometimes find out that there is a REASON why they were so cheap and the team suffers as a result. Not saying they should stop looking for bargains, but they need to get a name brand or two in here this off-season.

Right, they needed to sign Bobby Wade so he didn't take a cheap "legal' shot at Rodney.We might have been able to come up with that one stop to getus into the SB. That was not smart of BB and Scott. They needed to think that one through.

Who are the "brand names" that you think we should throw the money at?

 

[Jimke]

The core players lost from the 2004 team were as follows: Deon Branch,

David Givens, David Patten, Tyrone Poole, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Roman

Phifer, and Willie McGinest. You can probably add Daniel Graham and

Corey Dillon to that list this year. Joe Andruzzi was replaced by a very

godd player.

 

[vyrago]

FA doesn't start until tomorrow and yet we already have people complaining about needing to do more.

Sometimes it seems as if we have the largest quantity of whiney ass fans!

Whaaa we didn't sign the big name FA whaa we only won 3 of the past 6 superbowls and played in 4 of the last six AFCC games. Whaaa those idiots don't know what they are doing!

Seriously can't this wait until...um..I don't know...after FA begins?

How come he said this so much better than I did? Oh, maybe because he actually said it while I was just thinking it. Well then, what he said.

 

[carolinatony]

I don't believe anyone wants to Overpay for a player But isn't that what a FA is looking for? You need to spend a bit more to get good players today.
Sorry but this is what its about

 

[RayClay]

The core players lost from the 2004 team were as follows: Deon Branch,

David Givens, David Patten, Tyrone Poole, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Roman Phifer, and Willie McGinest. You can probably add Daniel Graham and

Corey Dillon to that list this year. Joe Andruzzi was replaced by a very

godd player.

Of course we need to go big at LB and DB this year. Maroney, Jackson, Mills, Cavanagh and Thomas will mature soon on O, which is where we found the value in 2006.

I'm trying to figure what your list means. If you mean we should replace every retiring player immediately no matter what it costs, there are teams that do that.

They're called non playoff teams.

 

[RayClay]

I don't believe anyone wants to Overpay for a player But isn't that what a FA is looking for? You need to spend a bit more to get good players today.
Sorry but this is what its about

Can we stop using the word overpay?

It's absurd on the face of it. If we need a certain player and decide to pay what he asks, it's because he's worth it to us.

Some teams do over pay, ours never knowingly will, that's why we're always in the hunt.

 

[Rob0729]

It would be nice if the Pats pursued a big time free agent rather than always looking for the cheapest player with upside.

Why? Look at some of the biggest free agents last year. Antwaan Randel El, Edgerrine James, Terrell Owens, Adam Archuletta, LaVar Arrington, Steve Hutchinson, etc. have not come close to living up to their contracts. For every Julian Peterson who does live up to his contract, there are three or four LaVar Arringtons.

Personally, I feel the mid range free agents are the way to go. Many of them are talented players who were held back by the team or system they played for. There is less risk and many times more reward.

 

[everlong]

The 06 team was not as good as the 04. Not only have we lost a lot of players but a lot of the players still on the team are not as good as they once were.

Bruschi
Vrabel
Dillon
Wilson
Harrison (He's older and I know his injuries were not the break down physically kind but he still hasn't been able to stay on the field.)

To name a few.

However the team has gotten much younger in that time frame and many players are still growing into better than average nfl starters to all pros.

Mankins
Warren (better than 04)
Wilfork (better than 04)
Watson (better than 04)
Maroney
Thomas
Samuel (better than 04)
Hobbs
Gostkowski

To name a few.

It's a work in progress where they are transitioning from the old to the new. Nobody does that seamlessly and they made it to the AFCCG last year.

This team has a lot of young talent to grow with. We are not talking about the 88 Celtics who held on to the big 3 for too long and didn't realize it.

I expect them to grow the middle class of this team again. There won't be a Adalias Thomas signing at 10M/year but there could be a Carlos Polk (3.5M/year) and Jarret Johnson (3.5M/year) signings which would give us youth and experience at the same time. Throw in a Kevin Curtis (3M/year) and we've filled three holes not one.

Please don't argue my numbers I'll be the first to admit I made them up on the cuff just to prove a point.

The point is everybody wants to go to extremes when usually the truth is in the middle, I believe it is here.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't believe anyone wants to Overpay for a player But isn't that what a FA is looking for? You need to spend a bit more to get good players today.
Sorry but this is what its about

Just ask Daniel Snyder if it is what it is all about. Smart teams do not spend more than value for players. The last three Super Bowl champions (us, Pittsburgh, and Indy) are three of the least active free agency players in the league and when all of them do go after free agents they typically go after value free agents rather than marquee free agents. Five of the last six Super Bowls were won by teams following this strategy. I don't think it is a coincidence.

Meanwhile teams like Washington, Minnesota, and Cleveland that consistently go after big names seem to rarely make the playoffs or have early outs when they do.

Personally, you pay percentagewise far more than production received for top tier players on average than for mid-range players. You typically are better off signing two or three midrange free agents than one marquee guy. Remember in 2001 how we signed something ridiculous like 17 players for what it would have cost us to keep Chad Eaton. Chad Eaton did nothing for Seattle and a lot of those free agents were big contributors to our Super Bowl run and subsequent runs.

 

[carolinatony]

"Whaaa we didn't sign the big name FA whaa we only won 3 of the past 6 superbowls and played in 4 of the last six AFCC games. Whaaa those idiots don't know what they are doing!"

It was 3 of 4 at one time and if we don't win it this year its 3 of 7. Lets not live in the past. We have a great QB in Brady' so lets win a few more while we still have him.

 

[Rob0729]

The core players lost from the 2004 team were as follows: Deon Branch,

David Givens, David Patten, Tyrone Poole, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Roman

Phifer, and Willie McGinest. You can probably add Daniel Graham and

Corey Dillon to that list this year. Joe Andruzzi was replaced by a very

godd player.

Law missed half the season and the playoffs. Tyrone Poole played three games in 2004. He was only effective in 2003. Our CBs for 2004 were Asante Samuel and Randall Gay and both are currently with the team.

I personally felt Roman Phifer was pretty much done in 2004 and was just an average player that year. McGinest was a playmaker, but did rotate with Vrabel and Colvin that season and was not a full-time player. Branch missed seven games in 2004.

I think you have an incorrect view of 2004. Several of the players made little to no impact that season due to declining production or injuries that made them miss huge portions of the season.

 

[Rob0729]

"Whaaa we didn't sign the big name FA whaa we only won 3 of the past 6 superbowls and played in 4 of the last six AFCC games. Whaaa those idiots don't know what they are doing!"

It was 3 of 4 at one time and if we don't win it this year its 3 of 7. Lets not live in the past. We have a great QB in Brady' so lets win a few more while we still have him.

So the Colts won this year and they rarely sign big free agents. The Steelers won last year and they never sign big free agents. So again, five of the last six Super Bowl winners typically didn't go after big time free agents.

By the way, it is 3 in six years. Our first win was the 2001 season (or Feb of 2002) and we have only missed winning the Super Bowl three times since.

 

[mgcolby]

The core players lost from the 2004 team were as follows: Deon Branch,

David Givens, David Patten, Tyrone Poole, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Roman

Phifer, and Willie McGinest. You can probably add Daniel Graham and

Corey Dillon to that list this year. Joe Andruzzi was replaced by a very

godd player.

Givens production was replaced by Caldwell, Ty Poole sucked (IMO) I would hardly call a guy who was constantly giving up TD's in the 03 SB a core player, also he didn't play for the majority of the 04 season including the playoffs. Ty Law didn't play in the second half of the 04 season including the playoffs.

TJ and Phifer retired so it wasn't as if we just let them walk. But I agree we are weaker and older at LB overall - but not as a result of those two retiring. Willie walked away a year early but it would have been idiotic for the Pats to have tried to match the contract from Cleveland.

Graham (if he leaves) will be replaced by Thomas, does it matter if you get a replacement a year early through the draft as opposed to signing a FA during the same offseason that you lose the guy? Then they can sign a 3rd TE if they don't think Mills will be ready.

I find it interesting that you would say Andruzzi was replaced by a very good player but not the same for Dillon? What makes you think that Maroney is not capable of taking on the full load? He had torn rib cartlidge - I am going to go out on a limb and say that any RB's production would be slowed by that. But thats just my opinion.

Branch is the only guy I would say hasn't been replaced by someone, although Chad Jackson was drafted with an eye towards the future, much like Dave Thomas - but DB being the selfish prick that he is forced him into the now a year early.

Any one else?

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

You can't find a huge long term contract screw up on the Patriots because we're smart.

You can sure find plenty on the Redskins and other teams though.

The skins eat huge cap hits and collapse.

Which model is better?

By the way, the result is a team a play away from the Super bowl in control of their large contracts with 4 first day picks and a ton of cap funds.

That really sucks, let's change our whole philosophy.

Ahhh, the "which model is better"? argument. Is this the "getting hit over the head lessons room"?

 

[spacecrime]

I am afraid we won't sign anyone of note again in FA. Are we slipping?
thoughts

Yeah, we're going to lose March again. We just can't compete with Synder. He wins March every year. I wish the Patriots were more like the Redskins. We suck. Felger is right. We had $30 mil in cap money we didn't spend last year. Or spent it too late. Cap money should be spent by March 3, or the team is cheap. Michael Forges and Ron Belger are right.

 

[salty]

Right, they needed to sign Bobby Wade so he didn't take a cheap "legal' shot at Rodney.We might have been able to come up with that one stop to getus into the SB. That was not smart of BB and Scott. They needed to think that one through.

Who are the "brand names" that you think we should throw the money at?

I think you are being a little ridiculous.

By "brand names" (and its important to not take that out of context, I used the term in relation to an analogy) I mean players that are generally recognized to be of decent quality, and are not over the hill. Setting aside the guys that are sure to be wildly overpaid, I'm talking about the likes of Donnie Edwards, London Fletcher, Ken Hamlin, Deon Grant, Drew Bennett, Kevin Curtis, DJ Hackett (RFA), etc. Give me two of that group and I would be ecstatic. More realistically, I'm hoping for at least one.

 

[mgcolby]

One other thing that I would like to point out is that I don't consider every starter from 2004 team a core player. Some may have been big contributors but not core players Dillon is a prime example. He had a great 2004 but I am not sure I would put him in the core player category. To me a core player is someone who provided leadership along with production. Also a person who is currently and will be a long term pillar of the team, i.e. Brady, Seymour, Vrabel etc.

 

[Ring 6]

"Whaaa we didn't sign the big name FA whaa we only won 3 of the past 6 superbowls and played in 4 of the last six AFCC games. Whaaa those idiots don't know what they are doing!"

It was 3 of 4 at one time and if we don't win it this year its 3 of 7. Lets not live in the past. We have a great QB in Brady' so lets win a few more while we still have him.

17-2
17-2
11-7
14-6
Those are the records the last 4 seasons. You are suggesting that it is time to change the approach that created that, because you think your approach would turn that record into more Super Bowls.
The problem is no one who has taken the approach you are endorsing has come close to those records. In other words, we are in the position of having lost the AFCC game on the heels of 2 SB wins, and a playoff year. But to get to the next level we should emulate teams that havent gotten to THIS level yet.

Look, I expect we will approach FA differently this year, and it may in fact look more like what you are hoping for. But the reason has nothing to do with your argument.
The reason is that we have more cap room than we have ever had in the BB era.

There are 2 arguments that I think are patternly wrong.
1) It is smart to go after big name high contract FAs.
-The REASON this is wrong is that MOST of those guys are at or near the point where they are entering the downside of their career. You are paying for what they WERE, and you get what they WILL BE. Bad investment.
2) BB believes in signing 'cheap' ' bargain' players.
Bargain may have some validity. Cheap does not. Try this example. Pick any off-season and look back at what BB signed in FA and what cap room he had to work with. Now add 10mill of cap room. You are nuts if you do not think he would have brought in higher priced guys than he did (with the caveat that they are also better players, and not an example of #1) If he could not find those, he would have signed 2-3 top money guys. He would have bought everything he could with that 10mill to upgrade his roster the best he felt he could.
This year we will have something like 15mill to spend in FA. I can be pretty certain that won't be 2 guys at 7.5 mill cap hits, and can be very certain it wont be 15 at 1mill cap hits.
It will be somewhere in between.
Whether or not BB will be active early, or at the top of the FA cost class, is IRRELEVANT to any other off-season since he has been here, because no one really knows what he thinks the best way to spend a lot of FA cap money is because he has never had the chance to. This year will be a new page in the BB GM book, because he is dealing with resources he has never had. NOW we will see how he feels about top end FAs because NOW he can afford them.

Besides, BB played in High School, so he knows a thing or 2.

 

[carolinatony]

"This year will be a new page in the BB GM book, because he is dealing with resources he has never had. NOW we will see how he feels about top end FAs because NOW he can afford them."

Good answer