Vick's pitbulls to die (because of owner neglect/irresponsiblity)

[danny88]

Re: Vick's pitbulls to die(because of owner neglect/irresponsiblity)

Pit bulls may be fine for drug and explosives sniffing, risky for searching and any K9 duties requiring interaction with people.

I thought you knew something about dogs. Your comment makes no sense. How a pure-bred dog behaves is inherent in the breed. To say that a border collie or chihuahua is not suitable for a seeing eye dog, or that a golden retriever or ****er spaniel is not suitable as a junkyard guard dog is not insulting. It is a statement that acknowledges the characteristics of the breed in question. Irish wolfhounds as a breed are not a good choice of pet for an elderly lady who lives in a small apartment in NYC. It is not insulting, it is a fact. It isn't the fault of the dog. The dog is what it is. The problem is the idiocy of the person who buys a wolfhound under those conditions.

It is equally idiotic for police departments to utilize pit bulls as K9 dogs. It is their (pit bull's) behavior that is the problem, plus the fact they they are a liability should anyone be mauled with more enthusiasm than can later be justified.

It doesn't matter if "most pit bulls aren't like that," or that "these pit bulls are different."

Lawsuits are the problem. People may sue if exposed to unnecessary police force, even if they are committing a crime. If they are later found innocent of the crime, excessive force lawsuits are a nightmare.

It is a lot easier to defend a lawsuit if someone was mauled by a german shepard. Almost all police departments use these dogs, and they are an industry standard.

If a man is mauled by a pit bull, the first thing the police department must do is answer the question, "All other police departments use german shepards. Why did you choose an animal with a reputation for viciousness." Replying that the animal is not vicious or pit bulls don;'t desrrve their reputation will go nowhere with a jury when a horribly scarred man or worse, woman, is testifying.

Perception is reality. Just like it foolish for NFL players to be at a nightclulb at 2:00 a.m., it is foolish for police departments to use dogs with a bad reputation. The NFL player may have been provoked into a fight, or the pit bull into a mauling, but it doesn't matter. It is a battle they cannot win.

I don't care how good your pit bull is with children. Pit bulls have a repuation for mauling. It is not an undeserved reputation. Using them for police work is just plain stupid.

There are better choices to be made.

The AKC does not agree with you. I admire your loyalty to your dog, but pit bulls are aggressive. Some are very aggressive. They are not always aggressive but cannot be trusted to be non-aggressive at any given time. That does not fit my definition of aggressive.

This discussion is pointless. It is like saying Jeffrey Dalmer was a nice tenant and always paid his rent on time, so there was nothing wrong with him.

We're talking pit bulls, not golden retrievers.

Please post proof of everything you just said. Please post temper scores for American pitbull terriers. Please post temper scores for German shepherds. Please tell us all how ab apbt is any more aggressive then a intact dominant breed dog? Pitbulls can be aggressive towards other animals if not properly socialized. The same goes for a bunch of other breeds. Pitss where bred to be very tolerant of people. A pitbull is not the best choice for a gaurd dog. You don't know what you are talking about. Please post proof that pit bulls are more aggressive then any other comparable mollasser/mastiff breed ( when raised correctly). Temper scores should settle that. Please post proof that the scum bag element and irresponsible owners who have latched on to the pit bull breed have nothing to do with certain actions you see glorified by the news. before there was a "pitbull problem" there was a "rottweiler problem" Please post stats about the chances u have to be killed by a apbt ( not including pit bull "types" which all the studies I have seen clump about 12 different breeds and mixs into one group calling the pitbull types. That flaw was brought to light long ago. A apbt pitbull is not a pitbull "type".

Btw German shepherds or police dogs are considered "dangerous dogs" right alongside pitbulls rottys and Dobies on those bills. Plenty of police forces use pits for k9. My partner has one. Stop with the ignorant nonsense. back up your claims with cites. You have no clue.

 

[BTTA]

I'll say it again: the Pits (and Rotties etc.) that are bred for fighting come from a carefully crafted gene pool that selects dogs for meanness, pain tolerance, and fighting ability. The gene pool has been developed over decades. Those dogs are unique and not at all representative of the normal Pit (or Rottie, etc.).

The Pits that many of us have as pets are an entirely different gene pool. They have been bred over years to be good pets.

We are talking about two entirely different groups of dogs. The fact that they are both Pits is more misleading than helpful.

Yes, sadly, the fighting dog gene pool needs to be wiped out. It really sxcks. They are only good for fighting. When a responsible shelter gets one, they put it down immediately. When those dogs accidentally breed with a normal dog, you get a very unstable dog. They are easy to identify, particularly with the advances in dog temperament testing that have been made in the past ten years.

This has no bearing on the standard Pit. These are wonderful dogs and deserve our support and love. We domesticated them, we are responsible for their current and future well being.

 

[Kdo5]

Re: Vick's pitbulls to die(because of owner neglect/irresponsiblity)

Please post proof of everything you just said. Please post temper scores for American pitbull terriers. Please post temper scores for German shepherds. Please tell us all how ab apbt is any more aggressive then a intact dominant breed dog? Pitbulls can be aggressive towards other animals if not properly socialized. The same goes for a bunch of other breeds. Pitss where bred to be very tolerant of people. A pitbull is not the best choice for a gaurd dog. You don't know what you are talking about. Please post proof that pit bulls are more aggressive then any other comparable mollasser/mastiff breed ( when raised correctly). Temper scores should settle that. Please post proof that the scum bag element and irresponsible owners who have latched on to the pit bull breed have nothing to do with certain actions you see glorified by the news. before there was a "pitbull problem" there was a "rottweiler problem" Please post stats about the chances u have to be killed by a apbt ( not including pit bull "types" which all the studies I have seen clump about 12 different breeds and mixs into one group calling the pitbull types. That flaw was brought to light long ago. A apbt pitbull is not a pitbull "type".

Btw German shepherds or police dogs are considered "dangerous dogs" right alongside pitbulls rottys and Dobies on those bills. Plenty of police forces use pits for k9. My partner has one. Stop with the ignorant nonsense. back up your claims with cites. You have no clue.

Good post. Exactly.

 

[Flying Fungi]

Re: Vick's pitbulls to die(because of owner neglect/irresponsiblity)

Please post proof of everything you just said. Please post temper scores for American pitbull terriers. Please post temper scores for German shepherds. Please tell us all how ab apbt is any more aggressive then a intact dominant breed dog? Pitbulls can be aggressive towards other animals if not properly socialized. The same goes for a bunch of other breeds. Pitss where bred to be very tolerant of people. A pitbull is not the best choice for a gaurd dog. You don't know what you are talking about. Please post proof that pit bulls are more aggressive then any other comparable mollasser/mastiff breed ( when raised correctly). Temper scores should settle that. Please post proof that the scum bag element and irresponsible owners who have latched on to the pit bull breed have nothing to do with certain actions you see glorified by the news. before there was a "pitbull problem" there was a "rottweiler problem" Please post stats about the chances u have to be killed by a apbt ( not including pit bull "types" which all the studies I have seen clump about 12 different breeds and mixs into one group calling the pitbull types. That flaw was brought to light long ago. A apbt pitbull is not a pitbull "type".

Btw German shepherds or police dogs are considered "dangerous dogs" right alongside pitbulls rottys and Dobies on those bills. Plenty of police forces use pits for k9. My partner has one. Stop with the ignorant nonsense. back up your claims with cites. You have no clue.

This thread is intriguing. Some serious hostility is being shown in some of these posts. I own 2 GSDs of East European origin (www.vonhena-c.com). My dogs are not considered dangerous dogs, are not regulated by my state or community and have no impact on my insurance. I spend a good amount of time around dogs and kennels, and have been around canines for most of my life including wolf hybrids. I am a former fisheries and wildlife biologist, so I have some familiarity with animal behavior. I have met some beautiful staffordshire and american pit bull terriers. I have also met some nasty ones. I can say that, in my case, the pit bull is the only breed that I am hesitant to approach. It is not a fear, but the breed makes me uncomfortable. I am very pleased that my current neighborhood is devoid of APBTs--and very pleased that there are 5 other GSDs around.

That said, on point with the OP, it is a shame that any animal is put into a position in which they will suffer unnecessarily. Fighting dogs are highly unlikely candidates for rehabilitation. In short, some people suck.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

Straight poop on why I won't let my kids around pit bulls. It's a control issue. I know that I can control most dogs if something happens. I grew up with Great Danes and have had them all my life. Most dogs can be handled if they get aggressive. If I had to (never done it BTW) I'm confident that I could get the Danes (and most breeds) to back down. The problem is that Pit Bulls aren't your every day dog when they do get aggressive. I know it's the owner in most of these cases and they might not be more likely than any other dog to bite you. That isn't my point. My point is that Pit Bulls were bred for a high tolerance to pain for one thing. That makes it more difficult to get the dog to release. Another thing is that Pit Bulls are like sharks. They bite and thrash their heads back and forth until they tear something off as an instinct. Most other breeds will bite but they tend to pin the victimas a means of control. The third thing is that Pit Bulls are very strong. You combine all three things and you have the *potential* for a serious situation if the dog gets aggressive. I can't tell if your dog is going to get aggressive or not because I don't know you. What I do know is that it's my job to keep my kids safe.

Now, I understand that it might offend some Pit Bull owners but so what if it does? Some people don't like snakes either but I'm sure the majority of them are fine too. Siegfried (sp) and Roy worked around tigers their whole life and look how that turned out. :lol: Do people realize that the majority of sharks don't attack people and that you swim with them all the time in the ocean? Does that mean that if I see one, I'm not going to run? :lol: Some of us don't want to get to know Pit Bulls. I don't care to get to know how great snakes are either. I'm just going to stay clear of both. If you like them, great but if someone doesn't, don't get all over them. You can get your point across without the name-calling.

It's a matter of comfort for most of us about our decisions to be around one species/breed or another. We make choices based on risk every day. Sometimes that risk is unfounded but it doesn't hurt us. For me, that risk isn't about whether your Pit Bull is going to attack more often than another dog, it's about whether I believe I can bring the situation back under control quickly if it does and based on the attacks that I've read about, I'm not sure. What I'm not willing to do is to let my kids play with one just to find out.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

If you like them, great but if someone doesn't, don't get all over them. You can get your point across without the name-calling.

When someone makes a moronic statement like "all pitbulls and rotties should be wiped out" then people who have had or have these dogs are going to get upset.

I have raised and breed American Straffordshire Terriers, I own a Rottie now.

Not once have I ever had a situation where I could not control my dogs. Also NONE of the AST's I breed have ever bit anyone. ( I keep in touch with all my puppies.)

The only reason I dont breed them anymore is because of people like I have witnessed in this thread who say that all Pitbulls are bad and racist insurance companies refusing to insure me because of my dogs.



Just like people, dogs should not be judged by a few bad apples.

 

[Flying Fungi]

When someone makes a moronic statement like "all pitbulls and rotties should be wiped out" then people who have had or have these dogs are going to get upset.

I have raised and breed American Straffordshire Terriers, I own a Rottie now.

Not once have I ever had a situation where I could not control my dogs. Also NONE of the AST's I breed have ever bit anyone. ( I keep in touch with all my puppies.)

The only reason I dont breed them anymore is because of people like I have witnessed in this thread who say that all Pitbulls are bad and racist insurance companies refusing to insure me because of my dogs.



Just like people, dogs should not be judged by a few bad apples.

btw--the Rotties I have met are some of the sweetest dogs--just absolute creampuffs!

 

[TheSeymonsta]

btw--the Rotties I have met are some of the sweetest dogs--just absolute creampuffs!

Yup people get intimidated because they growl and grumble but thats how they talk...

 

[BTTA]

The only reason I dont breed them anymore is because of people like I have witnessed in this thread who say that all Pitbulls are bad and racist insurance companies refusing to insure me because of my dogs.

The insurance issue is a complex one. On the one hand, the purpose of an insurance company is to provide policies on which they think they will never have to pay a claim. To do that, they do anything they can to reduce their risk. They do that by making generalized determinations about what type of risk they want to take on. So when they see a pattern of higher risk, they avoid it. And in most cases, it doesn't pay for them to inquire into the cause and effect of the pattern - that costs them money are rarely leads to a different decision.

So if they see an increase in dog attacks, and one of the patterns in those attacks is a certain breed, they simply decide they don't want to take on the risk that that breed brings to them. They don't care about differentiating any further than that - it isn't cost effective. And they don't have a social obligation to the rest of us to do so, unless required by law. They are in business to make money, which is what most of our economy is based on.

On the other hand, when the risk patterns they choose to select and avoid lead to certain groups of us being shut out of, or having a difficult time with, acquiring insurance, it creates a social justice problem. Insurance is an essential aspect of doing business today, so if I can't get it, I'm in trouble.

But no individual insurance company will take on more risk than its competitors unless there is a business reason to do so. The profit margins on a $1,000 insurance policy are in the pennies.

This is why we have regulation - to address the social justice issues in such a way as to level the competitive playing field for the companies.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

The insurance issue is a complex one.

Not really...


Its straight up racism.

Singling out a breed of dog because of the behaviour of some of that same breed reeks of profiling and racism.

Its not allowed with humans it shouldnt be allowed with dogs.

 

[Boston Jay]

You don't see that many in Dade Co... they are banned here. Kinda ridiculous.

 

[PittPatriot]

Oh, I dont know....maybe because they eat babies? Is that reason enough? I think so.

Give em all a needle.

Impressive.
Personally, I'd like to see a pit bull get a good grip on Mike Vick's achilles. If there is a God and hell does exist...Vick will be in it. Right now, he is my most hated player in the NFL. I'd love to see Wilfork and AD sandwich him.

 

[FarScapeR]

I'll say it again: the Pits (and Rotties etc.) that are bred for fighting come from a carefully crafted gene pool that selects dogs for meanness, pain tolerance, and fighting ability. The gene pool has been developed over decades. Those dogs are unique and not at all representative of the normal Pit (or Rottie, etc.).

The Pits that many of us have as pets are an entirely different gene pool. They have been bred over years to be good pets.

We are talking about two entirely different groups of dogs. The fact that they are both Pits is more misleading than helpful.

Yes, sadly, the fighting dog gene pool needs to be wiped out. It really sxcks. They are only good for fighting. When a responsible shelter gets one, they put it down immediately. When those dogs accidentally breed with a normal dog, you get a very unstable dog. They are easy to identify, particularly with the advances in dog temperament testing that have been made in the past ten years.

This has no bearing on the standard Pit. These are wonderful dogs and deserve our support and love. We domesticated them, we are responsible for their current and future well being.

Geez, if these special pit bulls are so unfit for domestication, why not release them into the wild? Yes, I know how silly that sounds, but since when did it become our responsibility to start determining which animal breeds should be kept or destroyed? The teacup chihuaha and the poodle are a joke in the canine family. Let's exterminate them as well.

This whole argument of what to do with pets is completely ridiculous. You can't claim any sort of moral high ground over Michael Vick or any dogfighters if you own a pet. I mean, you castrate and neuter the poor things in the name of domestication, then accuse others of cruelty because they nurture the violent tendencies in the animals. Think about it, we've somehow managed to transform wolves into sheep. If that's not the height of cruelty to a carnivorous predator, I don't know what is.

 

[Patjew]

Yup people get intimidated because they growl and grumble but thats how they talk...

Hey everyone.

I worked in a vets' office about 10 years back. While there, a rottie attacked a smallish woman vet during a check up and really did some serious damage to her face. It was awful. I don't remember what happened to the dog; nothing, I think. All of the vets there said they hated working on/with rotties more than any other breed.

I'm not saying all rotties are bad, I am just sharing this experience.

Anyway, what I found most interesting is that most of the 5 or 6 vets that worked there didn't even like animals. It's like they ended up as vets b/c they flunked out of dental school or something. Or maybe they were just burnt out. They were definitely underpaid, I can tell you that. Although back then, $30K/yr seemed like a ton of money to me.

Anyway, I kind of agree with the sentiment that I'm afraid of a dog that I don't think I could take 1 on 1 in a fight, especially when my kids are around. Last month in Thailand a wild dog charged after my 7 year old while we were walking down the street. I charged back at it yelling, ready to open a can of whoop-ass on it, and it backed down. Good thing, it was probably rabid.

(I am very surprised that this thread hasn't been moved yet. Not upset, just surprised.)

PS- my joke about China is this: In the U.S., people like dogs. In China, people like dog.

 

[zippo59]

FWIW, I saw this thing on TV that said that if you were attacked by a dog the best thing to do is to curl up in a ball, stay still, and cover your ears. Fighting back provokes the dog and often makes it worse. They showed guys in those really think suits and they would sick vicious dogs on them and as soon as they went into the phetal position the dog would immediately back down. It was pretty amazing.

 

[Kdo5]

FWIW, I saw this thing on TV that said that if you were attacked by a dog the best thing to do is to curl up in a ball, stay still, and cover your ears. Fighting back provokes the dog and often makes it worse. They showed guys in those really think suits and they would sick vicious dogs on them and as soon as they went into the phetal position the dog would immediately back down. It was pretty amazing.

How about running away? That often works. Dogs can be fast as hell but usually you can escape as long as you arent out in the open. Dont know if anybody has seen it but on some channel they have this dog training expert who goes around to various people who are having trouble with their dogs. Usually it has to do with their dog being untrained and just flat out vicious towards strangers and even towards the owners.

The dogs are so out of hand it is so amazing how the guy spends a day with the dog and he gets them to calm down and behave. Even though the guy is really brilliant and not everyone is, it goes to show that most all dogs can be trained and stopped from getting out of hand. And a bunch of the dogs are older than a few years so its harder to train them.

 

[AirForcePatFan]

Off the top of my head, State Farm and USAA will insure any dog of any breed as long as it doesn't have a bite history and they don't raise the fees either because of breed... I use State Farm and they have never given me any problems about the dogs...

How about running away?

Not a good idea, actually... Dogs with high prey drive(any working or sporting breeds) will continue to chase because now you are acting like prey would do... Best thing to do is cover your head and neck as best as possible, don't look the dog in the eye(dog will think you are challenging him), be as still as possible and as "submissive" as possible...

I would also like to include a "eye opener" for some of you... A list of 75 breeds banned or restricted in some city or county in the US... Is your breed on there?

List of 75 Banned or Restricted Dogs

The dogs on this list have name banned or restricted by one of several ways: a) the breed has been specificly named in a local ordinance OR b) by description in an ordinance - such ordinances may read "any dog matching the the characteristics of being short-coated, with bulldog-type appearances - or having an appearance that includes a short, muscular type build, flat head, or being of a bulldog type"............ etc.

For anone reading this from OUTSIDE the U.S., the dogs listed below are not NOT UNIFORMLY banned/restricted across the entire U.S. This means that the breeds listed below are banned or restricted in different places around the U.S. , and that individual states, cities, counties or towns all make their own LOCAL LAWS - and those laws differ according to individual communities.

Also - it's important to note that the list includes even MIXES of these breeds.

So - without further ado, courtesy of the RDOWS, here is the list of 75 - count 'em - SEVENTY FIVE - banned or restricted breeds .....................

1. AIREDALE TERRIER
2. AKBASH
3. AKITA
4. ALAPAHA BLUE BLOOD BULLDOG
5. ALASKAN MALAMUTE
6. ALSATIAN SHEPHERD
7. AMERICAN BULLDOG
8. AMERICAN HUSKY
9. AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
10. AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
11. AMERICAN WOLFDOG
12. ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD
13. ARIKARA DOG
14. AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG
15. AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD
16. BELGIAN MALINOIS
17. BELGIAN SHEEPDOG
18. BELGIAN TURVUREN
19. BLUE HEELER
20. BOERBUL
21. BORZOI
22. BOSTON TERRIER
23. BOUVIER DES FLANDRES
24. BOXER
25. BULLDOG
26. BULL TERRIER
27. BULL MASTIFF
28. CANE CORSO
29. CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOG
30. CAUCASIAN SHEPHERD
31. CHINESE SHAR PEI
32. CHOW-CHOW
33. COLORADO DOG
34. DOBERMAN PINSCHER
35. DOGO DE ARGENTINO
36. DOGUE DE BORDEAUX
37. ENGLISH MASTIFFS
38. ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL
39. ESKIMO DOG
40. ESTRELA MOUNTAIN DOG
41. FILA BRASILIERO
42. FOX TERRIER
43. FRENCH BULLDOG
44. GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
45. GOLDEN RETRIEVER
46. GREENLAND HUSKY
47. GREAT DANE
48. GREAT PYRANEES
49. ITALIAN MASTIFF
50. KANGAL DOG
51. KEESHOND
52. KOMONDOR
53. KOTEZEBUE HUSKY
54. KUVAZ
55. LABRADOR RETRIEVER
56. LEONBERGER
57. MASTIFF
58. NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF
59. NEWFOUNDLAND
60. OTTERHOUND
61. PRESA DE CANARIO
62. PRESA DE MALLORQUIN
63. PUG
64. ROTTWEILER
65. SAARLOOS WOLFHOND
66. SAINT BERNARD
67. SAMOYED
68. SCOTTISH DEERHOUND
69. SIBERIAN HUSKY
70. SPANISH MASTIFF
71. STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER
72. TIMBER SHEPHERD
73. TOSA INU
74. TUNDRA SHEPHERD
75. WOLF SPITZ

How's that for scary? You're wide awake now, I bet.

What's a dog owner to do? For starters - BEFORE you move, buy or rent a home, wherever you are - be sure to check with the local city hall - NOT THE REALTOR - to find out about local dog laws and if any breed-specific measures are in place or are being considered.

But don't take city hall's word, either. Ask for a COPY of the local ordinance, and then ask your local city council rep if they support breed-specific laws or measures.

http://dogpolitics.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/05/list_of_banned_.html


It will not stop at the rottweiler or pitbull...

 

[gomezcat]

The story is incredibly sad, but it doesn't seem as if there was any choice. If there is any justice, the perpetrators (I'm being careful here, as we all should) should do serious jail time. IF Vick is shown to have knowledge of this matter, he should face a very long suspension.

BTW. AF Pats fan, that's a REALLY long and scary list of banned dogs. Quite how some of those breeds made it on to that list is completely beyond me. BTW, what's an American Staffordshire Terrier? Does it woof with an American accent and **** up the opposite leg to pee?

 

[holyredeemer]

How about running away? That often works. Dogs can be fast as hell but usually you can escape as long as you arent out in the open. Dont know if anybody has seen it but on some channel they have this dog training expert who goes around to various people who are having trouble with their dogs. Usually it has to do with their dog being untrained and just flat out vicious towards strangers and even towards the owners.

The dogs are so out of hand it is so amazing how the guy spends a day with the dog and he gets them to calm down and behave. Even though the guy is really brilliant and not everyone is, it goes to show that most all dogs can be trained and stopped from getting out of hand. And a bunch of the dogs are older than a few years so its harder to train them.

I believe the show you are speaking of is the dog whisperer. He has something like over 50 dogs, and most which are rescued pits. If you watch his show, he does nothing but praise the breed and actually uses them to help with alot of his training. He also has alot of rotties. FWIW. A man who is actually educated about the **** he is actually talking about. What a bad ass. The mans name is Cesar Millan.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/

Go ahead and take a look at this page. He's getting aboslutely mauled with love from those vicious pits.

 

[DaBruinz]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2884063

And it just gets worse for Michael Vick.

Our confidential source said he's been involved in dog fighting for more than 30 years. He has trained and fought -- by his estimation -- about 2,000 pit bulls and was poised to tell "Outside the Lines" about the time in 2000 when his dog squared off against a dog owned by someone he referred to as one of the "heavyweights" of the dog fighting world: Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick.
"He's a pit bull fighter," the source said of Vick. "He's one of the ones that they call 'the big boys': that's who bets a large dollar. And they have the money to bet large money. As I'm talking about large money -- $30,000 to $40,000 -- even higher. He's one of the heavyweights."