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Tonight @9pm on PBS Frontline: A League of Denial.


From what I'm seeing, my common sense, tells me the answer appears to be yes. But the NFL seems to be perfectly happy to delay the answer to that question for about 30-40 years from today until "their research" can be concluded. And paid a one time fine to those that complained about it.

Instead of paying something like that amount yearly for a disability or some sort of retirement fund to handle such issues. Seems to me they got off very easy, and they're interested in further delaying their own admittance to that question, unless you sue them and win.

And I imagine more lawsuits will come.

But the league finally has admitted the problem, supposedly is taking measures to minimize it, etc., etc. So the bottom line responsibility rests with the individual players themselves for willingly chasing fame and fortune in exchange for risking long-term health.

I've discussed this before in other threads: I still don't understand why they can't come up with equipment that protects the head (brain) better.
 
That's what the female doctor wondered aloud, that anyone who played organized football at any level might well have brain damage from the repeated "mini-concussions" occurring in the course of every game. Hell, I remember when I played how EVERY solid hit involving helmet-related contact would create a sensation of brief incoherence. But I actually liked it when I was the one dishing out the punishment. Just the opposite when I was the "hittee."

Like I said, the helmet is a false sense of protection.

I guess if you think about it logically, then you have the brain which is basically loosely attached, and free to move around the interior or your skull. If the average head to head collision is equivalent to smacking into a wall at 35mph, then your brain is smacking into your forehead at 35mph, repeatedly, every week, and likely more often than that over many, many years.

I don't see how a helmet will be able to prevent that because the issue is the abrupt hit, which either forces your head to come to a complete stop, or snaps it back. There's no way you can slow down the deceleration of such a split second impact with a helmet, irrelevant of cushioning. It's impossible.

You could put 10 inches of cushioning on the interior of your helmet and that won't prevent your brain from smacking into your skull at 35mph, every time you get your head snapped back due to a head collision.

Edit: I think that answers your question above as well. There isn't any equipment. Take it off is the answer. Go back to the old days of minor leather protection and take away the incentive to hit each other in the head and use the helmet as a weapon. Would also stop those damn facemask penalties.

Also I don't think the NFL has that intention from what I saw, and as I suspected, I looked up the disease:

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) is a form of encephalopathy that is a progressive degenerative disease, which can only be definitively diagnosed postmortem in individuals with a history of multiple concussions and other forms of head injury.

And the NFL knows this. Everyone has to die and get their brains autopsied before they are willing to definitively acknowledge it.
 
Like I said, the helmet is a false sense of protection.

I guess if you think about it logically, then you have the brain which is basically loosely attached, and free to move around the interior or your skull. If the average head to head collision is equivalent to smacking into a wall at 35mph, then your brain is smacking into your forehead at 35mph, repeatedly, every week, and likely more often than that over many, many years.

I don't see how a helmet will be able to prevent that because the issue is the abrupt hit, which either forces your head to come to a complete stop, or snaps it back. There's no way you can slow down the deceleration of such a split second impact with a helmet, irrelevant of cushioning. It's impossible.

You could put 10 inches of cushioning on the interior of your helmet and that won't prevent your brain from smacking into your skull at 35mph, every time you get your head snapped back due to a head collision.

Edit: I think that answers your question above as well. There isn't any equipment. Take it off is the answer. Go back to the old days of minor leather protection and take away the incentive to hit each other in the head and use the helmet as a weapon. Would also stop those damn facemask penalties.

Also I don't think the NFL has that intention from what I saw, and as I suspected, I looked up the disease:



And the NFL knows this. Everyone has to die and get their brains autopsied before they are willing to definitively acknowledge it.

I posed this concept theoretically in an earlier thread regarding headgear: a system in which the helmet is attached to the shoulder pads and there is space between the outer shell and the head. The energetic shock of contact would be absorbed by the helmet-shoulder pad "system" and not by the head directly. It would have to be clear to allow full vision and probably would make players look like robots or spacemen, but I'm curious about it as a concept.
 
guys do things when they're young...GET IT???

guys race 250mph race cars....when they crash, guys DIE!!! guys ride bucking broncos..when they get thrown off and the horse kicks them in the head and crushes their skulls you don't sue the rodeo....guys skydive...guys free dive in the open ocean to 200 meters...guys swim with great white sharks, handle deadly venomous snakes, free climb sheer cliffs without any ropes....guys DO things that DEFY DEATH.

Women do too.

It's called LIFE...you live it...the tribe needs meat you fight the 12 foot Grizzly bear for the goddamned deer meat!!!!


So you are saying that they can't start playing till they are 18 then?
 
I posed this concept theoretically in an earlier thread regarding headgear: a system in which the helmet is attached to the shoulder pads and there is space between the outer shell and the head. The energetic shock of contact would be absorbed by the helmet-shoulder pad "system" and not by the head directly. It would have to be clear to allow full vision and probably would make players look like robots or spacemen, but I'm curious about it as a concept.

In racing they went to the HANS device and that has helped a great deal.
 
So you are saying that they can't start playing till they are 18 then?

what's THAT suppoosed to mean?? You're playing the "since it can damage the youngster's brain we MUST eliminate this NFL and the grown men who play in it!!! To save the brains of our children!!"...jeezus krist, talk about PC Space Alien...let's not allow anyone to drive cars since kids can get hurt in them too...yeah, let's PC the entire planet earth so YOU will feel "safe"...and then the asteroid struck and wiped the entire screeching harpie PC army out of existence...they forgot to OUTLAW the ASTEROID!!!!!...
 
I posed this concept theoretically in an earlier thread regarding headgear: a system in which the helmet is attached to the shoulder pads and there is space between the outer shell and the head. The energetic shock of contact would be absorbed by the helmet-shoulder pad "system" and not by the head directly. It would have to be clear to allow full vision and probably would make players look like robots or spacemen, but I'm curious about it as a concept.

Even if you did that I still don't see how that would prevent your brain from banging against the interior of your skull. You might get even more impacts if someone hits you in the shoulder now. You can't slow down the impact enough.

You could literally bang your head against a gymnastics mat, and this result would probably still occur. It's the sudden stop or change in direction of your head. Brain's and skull are moving forward at 35mph. Then skull abruptly stops or starts moving the other way. Brain goes splat.

It's kind of like putting cushion outside of your car, and then driving into a wall without a seatbelt. You'll still hit the windshield. Just like your brain will still go splat against your skull.

You'll have to open their skulls and wrap cushion around their brains, and I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL and Dr. Frankestein wouldn't try to figure it out too.

The only way I think is to discourage head hits completely. And as long as you have these helmets that give players a false sense of protection, and prevents them from feeling exterior pain to the skull, they're going to continue doing it, continue using their helmets as a blunt force weapon, without really taking notice of the interior damage they are doing to themselves and others.

And fans that think changing this changes the game, need to go back to the beginning and see that football was originally very light in headgear. I think in this case by trying to use protective gear, and the evolution of the helmet, it was that very protection that ended up being the biggest danger and likely the biggest cause of CTE. The helmet itself. It was only meant to protect from the occasional impact. Not from repeated blunt force traumas. It only helped increase the rate of those occurrences.
 
guys do things when they're young...GET IT???

guys race 250mph race cars....when they crash, guys DIE!!! guys ride bucking broncos..when they get thrown off and the horse kicks them in the head and crushes their skulls you don't sue the rodeo....guys skydive...guys free dive in the open ocean to 200 meters...guys swim with great white sharks, handle deadly venomous snakes, free climb sheer cliffs without any ropes....guys DO things that DEFY DEATH.

Women do too.

It's called LIFE...you live it...the tribe needs meat you fight the 12 foot Grizzly bear for the goddamned deer meat!!!!


stop the wussification of the planet!! for chrissakes....pros get PAID...every single one of them KNOWS there is danger, just like a goddamned lion tamer when he gets in the cage. This ridiculous fault/blame generation we've spawned will eventually lead to the end of the species. This reality, this LIFE we live was NEVER intended to be "safe". Stop the damned crybaby, post facto "I will be the one to change the world!!!" passion plays.

The point of the documentary was that the NFL pushed the line that there was no danger. Now that danger has been strongly supported but not yet admitted, the question still stands whether or not players are made adequately aware. But the issue goes well beyond the NFL right down to the youth level. Kids are not expected to know and understand dangers, they are told what to do and more importantly what not to do. So the question is should the kids be told not to play football just as they are told not to smoke? Or is that wussification too?

I also take issue with your comment that being concerned about one's long term health is somehow wussification. As new knowledge emerges, accepted practices are questioned. What was manly yesterday becomes stupidity today. Even Junior Seau who thought he well understood the dangers to his long term health (there was a part in the documentary where he says "you are sacrificing your life past 40 or 50" or something to that effect) was speculated to have shot himself in the chest so that his brain could be studied, like Duerson. Were they wussies too for being concerned about the future health of others? Had Seau really known that his years of brain injury due to football would lead to his ultimate end, do you think he would still do it?
 
The point of the documentary was that the NFL pushed the line that there was no danger. Now that danger has been strongly supported but not yet admitted, the question still stands whether or not players are made adequately aware. But the issue goes well beyond the NFL right down to the youth level. Kids are not expected to know and understand dangers, they are told what to do and more importantly what not to do. So the question is should the kids be told not to play football just as they are told not to smoke? Or is that wussification too?

I also take issue with your comment that being concerned about one's long term health is somehow wussification. As new knowledge emerges, accepted practices are questioned. What was manly yesterday becomes stupidity today. Even Junior Seau who thought he well understood the dangers to his long term health (there was a part in the documentary where he says "you are sacrificing your life past 40 or 50" or something to that effect) was speculated to have shot himself in the chest so that his brain could be studied, like Duerson. Were they wussies too for being concerned about the future health of others? Had Seau really known that his years of brain injury due to football would lead to his ultimate end, do you think he would still do it?


Yeah, I can't possibly put brain injury and wussification in the same sentence. Other areas of your body, I can understand, or overcoming temporary pain, but if there is a significant danger of brain damage over prolonged exposure, then I don't want to see it and I don't see it as a manly thing either. There's few other injuries that puts you as close to being a dead person as a brain injury. I'd rather be dead than a vegetable. And these guys who are committing suicide, are probably feeling those types of feelings.

I just don't think those players, like Junior Seau understood, and the NFL did its part to keep them ignorant.

It really is just plain stupid as nobody wants to end up like that. I don't think there's any other sport, or profession really, other than perhaps boxing, that basically has this risk. And 45 out of 46 sampled cases, says there's more to this than just a "risk". You also have examples of guys like Steve Young, a quarterback, having to retire early due to concussions. The most protected position. What about guys like Junior? And that young 21 year old who apparently only suffered sub-concussive hits.

And when the NFL put out pamphlets, and gave them to each NFL player and basically told them there were NO risks, then they are guilty as sin. That's despicable.

Going back to my helmet argument, I think even boxing could also be due to the protective gear. In a lot of ways it could be more dangerous than something like UFC because it's prolonged exposure to repeated hits where the exterior pain of the fist and face and head are numbed at the expense of the interior damage of their brains. So you have repeated blunt force trauma which is ignorant to the victim. You really don't feel "pain" in the normal sense when your brain makes that impact with your skull. You feel slight dizziness.

I guess that's why normal hits to the head or busting your head open usually causes significant pain and disorientation. It's the body's own way of protecting the brain. Take away that sensation of pain, by using a helmet, and you basically took away that defense mechanism. Take off the helmet, and football players are far less likely to bang heads like they do today.
 
The NFL isn't the only party in denial.

Just look at some of our posters in the Austin Collie thread.
 
The point of the documentary was that the NFL pushed the line that there was no danger. Now that danger has been strongly supported but not yet admitted, the question still stands whether or not players are made adequately aware. But the issue goes well beyond the NFL right down to the youth level. Kids are not expected to know and understand dangers, they are told what to do and more importantly what not to do. So the question is should the kids be told not to play football just as they are told not to smoke? Or is that wussification too?

I also take issue with your comment that being concerned about one's long term health is somehow wussification. As new knowledge emerges, accepted practices are questioned. What was manly yesterday becomes stupidity today. Even Junior Seau who thought he well understood the dangers to his long term health (there was a part in the documentary where he says "you are sacrificing your life past 40 or 50" or something to that effect) was speculated to have shot himself in the chest so that his brain could be studied, like Duerson. Were they wussies too for being concerned about the future health of others? Had Seau really known that his years of brain injury due to football would lead to his ultimate end, do you think he would still do it?

does the word "choice" mean ANYTHING to you?...or are you one of these "observers" that want to litigate everything to protect us from ourselves? who are YOU to be concerned about SOMEONE ELSE'S health, choices or legal activity??? I take issue with your insinuation that other people need to be "protected" from themselves by, I am supposing, genius party members like YOU. Tell you what, Orwell...YOU go to a NASCAR race and preach to the drivers that they should stop driving cars in excess of 200 mph because they are stupid and YOU are the "knower of things "sent there to protect them.See how far you get with THAT.

and while you're at it...you and your overlords can take issue with test pilots...awww, the hell with it...airplanes in general...and cars...and alcohol...and cigarettes...sky diving...Amazon jungle trips, Ice Station Zebra and ******* eastern bloc Euro women dressed in leather...you know what YOU want? you want everybody living in friggin' cocoons, living out their lives in quiet desperation, attempting to live vicariously through the recorded history of now outlawed human activities. No thanx....much better if you and you ilk find a nice island somewhere...but not in the tropics because you don't want any nasty skin cancer from tanning...try Greenland.
 
does the word "choice" mean ANYTHING to you?...or are you one of these "observers" that want to litigate everything to protect us from ourselves? who are YOU to be concerned about SOMEONE ELSE'S health, choices or legal activity??? I take issue with your insinuation that other people need to be "protected" from themselves by, I am supposing, genius party members like YOU. Tell you what, Orwell...YOU go to a NASCAR race and preach to the drivers that they should stop driving cars in excess of 200 mph because they are stupid and YOU are the "knower of things "sent there to protect them.See how far you get with THAT.

and while you're at it...you and your overlords can take issue with test pilots...awww, the hell with it...airplanes in general...and cars...and alcohol...and cigarettes...sky diving...Amazon jungle trips, Ice Station Zebra and ******* eastern bloc Euro women dressed in leather...you know what YOU want? you want everybody living in friggin' cocoons, living out their lives in quiet desperation, attempting to live vicariously through the recorded history of now outlawed human activities. No thanx....much better if you and you ilk find a nice island somewhere...but not in the tropics because you don't want any nasty skin cancer from tanning...try Greenland.


I don't think that's what he's saying. The issue at hand here is actually exactly part of what you are saying....of NOT even knowing the dangers and the NFL going out of their way, to the point of handing players pamphlets and lying to them about those dangers. That's the first problem.

The other is up for debate.

But that one, is something even you should be able to agree on. At least you know what you're doing is dangerous so then you can make that choice. The players, and society have a right to know that part in order to make those choices.
 
I don't think that's what he's saying. The issue at hand here is actually exactly part of what you are saying....of NOT even knowing the dangers and the NFL going out of their way, to the point of handing players pamphlets and lying to them about those dangers. That's the first problem.

The other is up for debate.

But that one, is something even you should be able to agree on. At least you know what you're doing is dangerous so then you can make that choice. The players, and society have a right to know that part in order to make those choices.

I know I know...but I had that great burst of vitriolic outrage in me so I let it fly.

Of course, having played football, I knew the dangers when I was a kid..and that was 40 years ago. Players in this league knew as far back as the 70's that playing in the league could leave you punchy...just as they knew taking steroids could lead to early death.The Alzados came and went yet anabolics exploded league wide.We're going to play the revisionist history card NOW and claim the poor defenseless NFL player had no idea he could end up on a slab? The NFL kept it as under wraps as well as it could, and for that they deserve as much derision and scorn as one sees fit to heap upon them,but these players knew and know now that head trauma is part of playing NFL football. The ones you want to go after are the "PROFESSIONALS" that head up each team's medical staff, the ones who decided it was "safe" for concussed players to resume hitting. The ones who failed to provide adequate information about the dangers of repeated concussions.So yeah, damn right go after them. Establish protocols and adhere to them under the threat of severe monetary and legal ramifications...of course...where I disagree is this outpouring of faux "outrage" by persons not affiliated in any way with the sport, demanding an end to the sport for the safety of "the children!"...

I was watching the news on JAR 10 tonight...two 14 year old children were arrested after being involved in a firefight on a city street, using semi automatic handguns...tell me, what does outlawing team sports for these kids to learn and grow in, learning the value of hard work and co-operation do for THESE "children"? I don't see the "outrage" focused on this as opposed to NFL players and concussions.
 
I don't think playing in leather helmets is the answer, I think what they're doing now is going to help quite a bit. The only issue I have with the NFL is in spite of heavy evidence they turned a blind eye to the matter instead of taking it head on from the get go.
Now that all the players know the truth it's up to them whether they want to play or go work at UPS. I guarantee 99 out of 100 will play knowing full well that they can end up with permanent damage. You don't think these guys know steroids will have long term adverse affect? but they'll take them if they can get away with it knowing the effects and go for the fame, bucks and glory. That's on them.
 
It's called LIFE...you live it...the tribe needs meat you fight the 12 foot Grizzly bear for the goddamned deer meat!!!!

You should consider moving. Where I live, if the tribe needs meat, you take a number at the Stop N Shop deli counter or call ahead to Tennessee BBQ.
 
You should consider moving. Where I live, if the tribe needs meat, you take a number at the Stop N Shop deli counter or call ahead to Tennessee BBQ.

yeah...well you better get it fast, brother...word is the "knowers" want to outlaw bar-b-cue because of the free radicals that can cause cancer assimilated by the smoked meats. Sure it tastes good and your family, your father and his father and his father have been eating that way for generations...but not any longer...soon there'll be no more ham, no chicken hatched eggs, no nothing...just some slop ala the Matrix with all the vital nutrients a body needs and and some DVD's of "When Food Really Existed" to perk up your apetite.
 
does the word "choice" mean ANYTHING to you?...or are you one of these "observers" that want to litigate everything to protect us from ourselves? who are YOU to be concerned about SOMEONE ELSE'S health, choices or legal activity??? I take issue with your insinuation that other people need to be "protected" from themselves by, I am supposing, genius party members like YOU. Tell you what, Orwell...YOU go to a NASCAR race and preach to the drivers that they should stop driving cars in excess of 200 mph because they are stupid and YOU are the "knower of things "sent there to protect them.See how far you get with THAT.

and while you're at it...you and your overlords can take issue with test pilots...awww, the hell with it...airplanes in general...and cars...and alcohol...and cigarettes...sky diving...Amazon jungle trips, Ice Station Zebra and ******* eastern bloc Euro women dressed in leather...you know what YOU want? you want everybody living in friggin' cocoons, living out their lives in quiet desperation, attempting to live vicariously through the recorded history of now outlawed human activities. No thanx....much better if you and you ilk find a nice island somewhere...but not in the tropics because you don't want any nasty skin cancer from tanning...try Greenland.

Are you going to listen or just put on your tired hysterical act? Things are not "choices" when you don't have correct information and particularly so when you are fed false ideas. It is not just about the NFL athletes either, it is about the entire audience. From the NFL's point of view, it is probably more about the spectators - it might not be very palatable to the audience to know that the game they are watching is causing some form of permanent brain injury to all of its players. When people think of a "game", it is something that is fun and healthy not something that is painful and injurious.

It's not me who needs to find a remote island. Perhaps you and other macho men should find a remote island and revive all sorts of fun human activities like gladiator battles. That used to be quite the rage didn't it? It is quite ironic to see you lecture about living vicariously because there is nothing more vicarious than watching others play a violent game and rant on about how glorious and manly it is while those that actually play it are shooting themselves in the chest so that people can study their brains to figure out what broke them.
 
The question I have, that no one seems to ask, is why don't boxers have the same issues. They take many more head shots than an NFL player. Yet, they don't seem to have the same level of neurological disease. Why?
 
That's what the female doctor wondered aloud, that anyone who played organized football at any level might well have brain damage from the repeated "mini-concussions" occurring in the course of every game. Hell, I remember when I played how EVERY solid hit involving helmet-related contact would create a sensation of brief incoherence. But I actually liked it when I was the one dishing out the punishment. Just the opposite when I was the "hittee."

Perhaps that incoherence has lasted longer than you think :D
 


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