Tonight @9pm on PBS Frontline: A League of Denial.

[PatsWickedPissah]

I know I know...but I had that great burst of vitriolic outrage in me so I let it fly.

Of course, having played football, I knew the dangers when I was a kid..and that was 40 years ago. Players in this league knew as far back as the 70's that playing in the league could leave you punchy...just as they knew taking steroids could lead to early death.The Alzados came and went yet anabolics exploded league wide.We're going to play the revisionist history card NOW and claim the poor defenseless NFL player had no idea he could end up on a slab? The NFL kept it as under wraps as well as it could, and for that they deserve as much derision and scorn as one sees fit to heap upon them,but these players knew and know now that head trauma is part of playing NFL football. The ones you want to go after are the "PROFESSIONALS" that head up each team's medical staff, the ones who decided it was "safe" for concussed players to resume hitting. The ones who failed to provide adequate information about the dangers of repeated concussions.So yeah, damn right go after them. Establish protocols and adhere to them under the threat of severe monetary and legal ramifications...of course...where I disagree is this outpouring of faux "outrage" by persons not affiliated in any way with the sport, demanding an end to the sport for the safety of "the children!"...

I was watching the news on JAR 10 tonight...two 14 year old children were arrested after being involved in a firefight on a city street, using semi automatic handguns...tell me, what does outlawing team sports for these kids to learn and grow in, learning the value of hard work and co-operation do for THESE "children"? I don't see the "outrage" focused on this as opposed to NFL players and concussions.

Good suggestions and a great concluding example of the cognitive dissonance expressed in this nanny state society. While I agree that the NFL deliberately and disingenuously worked to discredit medical findings about the danger of concussions, I expect society to as always over react going forward. Had the NFL invested serious $ and effort in helmet research they would have a moral high ground and done something to protect the workers they profit from. They chose to stonewall instead. Bad management and moral decision that's on the owners.

Since this society has zero tolerance for politically publicized risk, I expect football to be gone in 30 years. I will be too, so I will not miss it.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

what's THAT suppoosed to mean?? You're playing the "since it can damage the youngster's brain we MUST eliminate this NFL and the grown men who play in it!!! To save the brains of our children!!"

He's saying that with the way the evidence is looking, it will become unconscionable to let under-18s play tackle football. Presumably not even you would argue that minors should be able to consent to brain damage.

And if that happens there won't be any need to eliminate the NFL because there'll be no one to play in it. Or if there it is, it'll be crappy because the players will have only played tackle football for 4 years (i.e. in college) before coming to the NFL.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Good suggestions and a great concluding example of the cognitive dissonance expressed in this nanny state society.

I agree with you that professionals should be able to do what they want, if they are properly apprised of the risks or if the risks aren't really known.

But minors are a totally different story. If the research continues to point the way it appears to be pointing, especially with respect to the effects of unavoidable, repeated, sub-concussive hits, how can it be proper to let minors play?

 

[shmessy]

Good suggestions and a great concluding example of the cognitive dissonance expressed in this nanny state society. While I agree that the NFL deliberately and disingenuously worked to discredit medical findings about the danger of concussions, I expect society to as always over react going forward. Had the NFL invested serious $ and effort in helmet research they would have a moral high ground and done something to protect the workers they profit from. They chose to stonewall instead. Bad management and moral decision that's on the owners.

Since this society has zero tolerance for politically publicized risk, I expect football to be gone in 30 years. I will be too, so I will not miss it.

Stonewalling is not a long-term strategy.

You'd think SOMEONE would have learned from the Big Tobacco example.

Addressing a problem truthfully is the only way to survive long-term. Stonewalling is a strategy that ruins what you are protecting in the long-term.

Personally, I wish the Patriots kicked and screamed their case in Spygate the way the Saints did in Bountygate. Putting up the walls only worsens a situation. Get the truth out. It's the only successful way.

 

[primetime]

I was watching the news on JAR 10 tonight...two 14 year old children were arrested after being involved in a firefight on a city street, using semi automatic handguns...tell me, what does outlawing team sports for these kids to learn and grow in, learning the value of hard work and co-operation do for THESE "children"? I don't see the "outrage" focused on this as opposed to NFL players and concussions.

No one's suggesting outlawing team sports. Just football for minors. There's plenty of other team sports, and football's also substantially more expensive than popular alternatives (basketball, soccer, baseball) that don't entail risk of massive, life-changing head trauma.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

The question I have, that no one seems to ask, is why don't boxers have the same issues. They take many more head shots than an NFL player. Yet, they don't seem to have the same level of neurological disease. Why?

Boxers have a much higher level of neurological disease, including CTE. Even the NFL's previous "expert panel" of non-experts admitted that. In fact they said that other than boxing, there was no evidence that sports causes CTE.

An interesting show.

The NFL panel sure did look sleazy, in the extent of character assassination of scientists who were publishing papers that they did not like. Demanding that editors retract those papers and writing scathing condemnations.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I agree with you that professionals should be able to do what they want, if they are properly apprised of the risks or if the risks aren't really known.

But minors are a totally different story. If the research continues to point the way it appears to be pointing, especially with respect to the effects of unavoidable, repeated, sub-concussive hits, how can it be proper to let minors play?

It can't. That wasn't the issue I was addressing.

I think the research is most probably correct but sometimes we go thru a stage of hysteria on research. The 60s onward hysterical attitude towards radiation exposure as a reaction to prior lassie-faire attitude where people were put at serious risk is an example. Recent research indicates that low level rad exposure is not a significant health risk, something we should have surmised from folks living in Denver, etc. In contrast, the research on the bad effects of direct smoking was always pretty much correct and even understated.

 

[kennyb]

If even non-concussive hits have a cumulative brain damaging effect then it seems like banning football for those under 18 will be on the agenda soon.

 

[Tunescribe]

The wildcard that I haven't seen fully addressed: Despite dire findings from the brains that have been examined, and evidence presented by ex-players in the lawsuit, aren't most ex-players symptom free? So it's not necessarily a given that suffering the syndrome is inevitable. Perhaps they can devise tests to determine what physical characteristics contribute to someone being more prone to brain damage from concussion syndrome.

 

[PatsDeb]

Let's face it, to a certain extent it's not only a League of Denial, but a legion of fans in denial. However, nowadays the issue is front and center, they try to use the best equipment, players are paid well (at least at the NFL level) and everyone goes into it voluntarily. If you are concerned that you will end up with life long problems then you probably won't be going out for football.

 

[primetime]

The wildcard that I haven't seen fully addressed: Despite dire findings from the brains that have been examined, and evidence presented by ex-players in the lawsuit, aren't most ex-players symptom free? So it's not necessarily a given that suffering the syndrome is inevitable. Perhaps they can devise tests to determine what physical characteristics contribute to someone being more prone to brain damage from concussion syndrome.

Unfortunately, current technology only enables posthumous diagnosis of CTE. It may be that the majority of former players do not display the sort of behavioral change or difficulty functioning in society which you see from Junior Seau or Muhammad Ali that are the extreme symptoms, but still suffer from more subtle cognitive problems as a result.

Also worth noting is that people tend to underreport mental illnesses, in part due to stigmas surrounding them and in part due to lack of awareness of the problem in the first place.

 

[Dr Pain]

OK ... What is it?

The HANS device (also known as a head restraint) (Head and Neck Support device) is a safety item compulsory in many car racing sports. It reduces the likelihood of head and/or neck injuries, such as a basilar skull fracture, in the event of a crash.

It keeps the head and neck from moving too far by anchoring them to the torso. It restricts mobility though and lots of racers didn't want to use them at first. I am not saying this would work for football but is an example of what other sports are trying.

I don't know if football will survive because I would not let my kid play now and I played it and loved it from 4th grade through college. I may have loved boxing too if I tried it. There are other sports without this risk for kids. Screaming maniacs will have to live off of MMA matches where people don't get involved till they are legal adults.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Yeah. If pro football goes away it won't be because it was legislated/sued out of existence. It'll be because of some combination of:

• Parents not letting their kids play
• Schools dropping football because their insurance carriers will force them to.
• State laws prohibiting/restricting minors from playing.

and thus decimating the NFL player pool.

 

[Bella*chick]

It makes me sad to think that the NFL very possibly might not exist in 30 years. But at the same time, I can't deny that there is no way in hell I'd let my kid play football. Granted, he isn't much of an athlete and prefers chess but even if he were, I'd say no. Flat out. Even through high school.

Sometimes I wonder if the players just act as many young people do....acknowledging the risks but not taking them seriously enough because they need to pay the bills or because 40 or 50 is a long time off when you are 22 and just getting started in your career. It looks a little different on the other side of it.

 

[Tunescribe]

Yeah. If pro football goes away it won't be because it was legislated/sued out of existence. It'll be because of some combination of:

• Parents not letting their kids play
• Schools dropping football because their insurance carriers will force them to.
• State laws prohibiting/restricting minors from playing.

and thus decimating the NFL player pool.

It could be that Goodell has seen the writing on the wall, thus moving the game closer to flag football.

 

[lamafist]

Going back to my helmet argument, I think even boxing could also be due to the protective gear. In a lot of ways it could be more dangerous than something like UFC because it's prolonged exposure to repeated hits where the exterior pain of the fist and face and head are numbed at the expense of the interior damage of their brains. So you have repeated blunt force trauma which is ignorant to the victim. You really don't feel "pain" in the normal sense when your brain makes that impact with your skull. You feel slight dizziness.

I guess that's why normal hits to the head or busting your head open usually causes significant pain and disorientation. It's the body's own way of protecting the brain. Take away that sensation of pain, by using a helmet, and you basically took away that defense mechanism. Take off the helmet, and football players are far less likely to bang heads like they do today.

Boxing gloves weren't invented to protect heads from fists, but to keep boxers from breaking their hands on their opponents' skulls. Bare-knuckle fights were boring as fighters had to be too judicious with their punches. Gloves allowed for more frequent and harder head shots, and resulted in a more spectator-friendly sport, as opposed to something that was only interesting if you were betting on it.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Let's also remember why football helmets were invented/required in the first place -- to prevent a rash of skull fractures.

Again, while everyone focusses on things like a DB spearing a receiver and saying (albeit truthfully) "Well, he wouldn't do that if he didn't have a helmet", I think the bigger problem is in line play.

What would happen to line play (on either side of the ball) if OLmen and DLmen couldn't wear helmets? I think things would be a lot different which in turn would drastically change the game. (With no head protection I'd think they'd have to stand a lot more upright so as to make sure they don't crack heads, for example.)

 

[Zeus]

Yeah. If pro football goes away it won't be because it was legislated/sued out of existence. It'll be because of some combination of:

• Parents not letting their kids play
• Schools dropping football because their insurance carriers will force them to.
• State laws prohibiting/restricting minors from playing.

and thus decimating the NFL player pool.

There's already talk of insurers intoducing policy exclusions with respect to liability arising from concussions. Once this happens, schools will take a very hard look at not only their football programs, but other sports as well.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

The HANS device (also known as a head restraint) (Head and Neck Support device) is a safety item compulsory in many car racing sports. It reduces the likelihood of head and/or neck injuries, such as a basilar skull fracture, in the event of a crash.

It keeps the head and neck from moving too far by anchoring them to the torso. It restricts mobility though and lots of racers didn't want to use them at first. I am not saying this would work for football but is an example of what other sports are trying.

I don't know if football will survive because I would not let my kid play now and I played it and loved it from 4th grade through college. I may have loved boxing too if I tried it. There are other sports without this risk for kids. Screaming maniacs will have to live off of MMA matches where people don't get involved till they are legal adults.

I'm sure they could implement such a device in football pretty easily. It's little more than a tether running through a brace similar to a football neck roll attached to your helmet on each side (I'm sure there's a lot more science behind it). Unfortunately I suspect the problem with football is that you're absorbing the impacts directly opposed to indirectly, so attaching your head to your torso wouldn't achieve a great deal to limit head/neck trauma.

 

[lamafist]

If the NFL's concussion problem is an example of "a nanny state," than we've been living in one since the industrial revolution.

If CTE is found, as it inevitably will, to be an inevitable consequence of playing in the NFL, than the brain damage suffered by players has to be treated like minors' black lung and all of the poisonings and cancers caused by exposure to harmful factory materials, before the nation responded to the reality of a post-agrarian America by affirming the inalienable right of workers to as safe a work environment as possible. Inalienable, as in not something that can be waived by any contract, whether individual or collectively bargained.

If the NFL knowingly suppressed information about the dangers of football, it's got much more immediate problems than the possibility that parents and schools will no longer allow kids to play football.