Tight End Story

[long distance]

I wanted to do this in the offseason but 1st day of TC might be a good day to share some of my offseason TE thoughts..

At the moment Pats TE situation is evaluated very differently. Those more concerned w Gronk's dis/ability to stay on the field and more sceptical about Allen's receiving skills see it as thin and potential weakness, others who see Gronk in good shape and Allen as a starter and legitimate blocking/receiving TE see it as strength and one of best in football.

The other thing that was interesting to monitor is the composition of the group. Last year Pats entered the season with incredibly strong group of 4 TE on 53. One of the reasons for bringing in Bennett and Harbor (and investing considerable assets) was Gronk's coming back from injury. The other was to create the best dual TE threat possible that would make Pats O most difficult to defend . while typically using receivers market imbalance that pays WRs double the TE money.

Letting Bennett go and bringing in Allen would suggest they look for some of the same they expected last year but unfortunately didn't see a lot of due to injuries to both TEs. Some are sceptical about Allen (and a few drops in minicamp didn't help) but BB&co invested serious money (approx the same as for Bennett last year) so I guess they believe they can have similar game planning opportunities and production (with more durability) from him and also insurance as a solid #1 TE in case Gronk goes down again.

Since Gronk is ready to go carrying 4 TE on this years roster (while keeping 3 QB) would seem excessive. Last year the composition of 4 on the original roster was 2 top blocking-receiving TE, 1 solid vet blocking TE (on a solid contract) and 1 sophomore receiving TE on the rise. It looked a great composition of the group but the moment Gronk came back they released Harbor (paying him 1.35M for 3 games) and signed Scruggs (former DL with limited TE experience). At the time it seemed like they wanted to keep 4 TE (bringing Scruggs for Harbor remains a mystery esp. since there were no savings in releasing Harbor) one reason possibly being they didn't carry a single TE on their PS the whole season (both candidates Scheu and Williams were signed by other teams). Soon after Scruggs was placed on IR (never to be heard from again), they (surprisingly) traded Derby to Denver and Gronk went down and all that was left from the plethora of riches TE entering last yrs TC was banged up Bennett. Thankfully he managed to grind through well enough that TE position at least existed on the field. They did add Lengel from Cincy's PS but in reality he wasn't much of a factor despite one TD (24 snaps combined in post-season, some uneventful ST snaps).

From 7 TE entering 2016 TC (Gronk, Bennett, M Williams, Derby, Harbor, Scheu, M Williams) only Marty survived.

This year they seem to be entering with 6 (Gronk, Allen, Lengel, O'Shaughnessy, J Hollister, Cotton). Two were already released (M Williams, Housler on failed physical). Adding more receiving threats at WR and RB, carrying 3 QBs again and great depth and quality of the roster would suggest they wouldn't want to carry more than 3 on 53 this year with hopefully bringing at least one to PS. And that's where trading for O'Shaughnessy comes to play.

2017 was considered a very good and deep draft class for TE . still Pats decided for a trade rather than a pick. It was a surprise. Looking back one can see it as a great move since it turned out most quality TEs were gone before pick #183 (Butt, Kittle, Leggett, Sprinkle, Saubert all went in 5th round between picks #145 and #174). Some could argue Pats have very good knowledge what others will daft and act on it much in advance. Or it can be a simple case that BB wanted a proven, dependable, versatile NFL player (that can both block and receive and could be a core ST) for what seems like the final and under circumstances very important #3 TE spot. Thats why I see O'Shaughnessy as a huge favourite to take the spot.
(see: 2017 Minicamp Thread)

It will be interesting position to monitor nevertheless because it would be essential if they can keep at least one solid TE on PS this time. Hopefully it will be easier this year (after a deep TE draft) since last year lot of the league struggled to keep their TEs on PS. Still, while 4 TEs are eligible for PS (O'Shaughnessy, Lengel, Hollister, Croston) it will not be easy to retain them. Best case scenario would be to keep both Lengel and Hollister but other teams already expressed interest in them..

Last but not least, Pats lost their TE coach Brian Daboll this off-season so this will be something to take into consideration as well as Nick Caley (w pats since 2015) takes over..

 

[long distance]

O'Shaughnessy taking some first team reps w Gronk . some reporters really liked how he moves..

 

[long distance]

meanwhile at GB



slept on the locker room floor last night (look at his hilarious video in the links below) . now this . not the best start for Marty

Martellus Bennett kicked off Packers camp by sleeping on floor in front of his locker
TE Bennett sleeps on floor before Packers camps

hope i didn't jinx him . just wrote about it here yesterday that durability could be one of the reasons Pats went for Allen (knock on wood)

 

[captain stone]

...Adding more receiving threats at WR and RB, carrying 3 QBs again and great depth and quality of the roster would suggest they wouldn't want to carry more than 3 on 53 this year with hopefully bringing at least one to PS. And that's where trading for O'Shaughnessy comes to play.

2017 was considered a very good and deep draft class for TE; still Pats decided for a trade rather than a pick. It was a surprise. Looking back one can see it as a great move since it turned out most quality TEs were gone before pick #183 (Butt, Kittle, Leggett, Sprinkle, Saubert all went in 5th round between picks #145 and #174). Some could argue Pats have very good knowledge what others will draft and act on it much in advance. Or it can be a simple case that BB wanted a proven, dependable, versatile NFL player (that can both block and receive and could be a core ST) for what seems like the final and under circumstances very important #3 TE spot. Thats why I see O'Shaughnessy as a huge favourite to take the spot...

Bill should've just made the trade for O'Shaughnessy and kept #127; so instead of trading that pick for Dwops Allen, he could've had his choice of Kittle, Butt, Sprinkle or Leggett, with longer term at less money.

 

[Brick27]

Well it shouldn't be hard for O'Shaughnessy to improve on his 2 receptions for -1 yards from last year. I fail to see how that is proven, but will trust Bill on this.

Bottom line...if Gronk can stay healthy, any other tight end talk will be irrelevant.

 

[Tony2046]

Not blaming anyone but for once I would like to see the Dual TE set work in our favor.

Chandler, Gronk = Bust because of injuries to both Gronk and Chandler.

Bennett, Gronk = Serviceable because Bennett was able to stay on the field although banged up.

Hopefully this is the year. Allen and Gronk = A dual threat.

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

The word on O'Shaunessey was that he's a blocking TE - nothing more. Reports from camp however (first impressions) are that he looks smooth and athletic catching the ball - arguably better than Allen and Lengel. Obviously we'll need to see these guys in preseason games before placing bets on the TE depth chart, but interesting to note.

 

[Tony2046]

The word on O'Shaunessey was that he's a blocking TE - nothing more. Reports from camp however (first impressions) are that he looks smooth and athletic catching the ball - arguably better than Allen and Lengel. Obviously we'll need to see these guys in preseason games before placing bets on the TE depth chart, but interesting to note.

That's interesting.

 

[Jackson 2]

I usually view glasses as half-full, as opposed to half-empty. But, the TE situation, in my opinion, is shaky. The difference between Bennett and Allen is significant. If Gronk goes down...

 

[DarrylS]

Even though they gave Gronk an incentive loaded contract, not sure he can stay on the field..

As much as I would have liked a healthy Bennett to have stayed here, we have a lot of depth in the WR and RB position..

 

[Mack Herron]

The word on O'Shaunessey was that he's a blocking TE - nothing more. Reports from camp however (first impressions) are that he looks smooth and athletic catching the ball - arguably better than Allen and Lengel. Obviously we'll need to see these guys in preseason games before placing bets on the TE depth chart, but interesting to note.

Not sure where you got that word. He came out as a lighter move TE with good speed to get upfield, but so far has not panned out.

The downside with O'Shaughnessy is that he is a bit raw as a blocker and as a route-runner. However, he is incredibly fast off the line, and he has outstanding hands and ball skills.

This is why the Chiefs wanted him.

An In-Depth Look at Chiefs' Most Intriguing Selection, James O'Shaughnessy

Bottom Line
"Basketball" tight end with plus foot quickness, concentration, hands and vertical ability. He can elevate and compete for jump balls while creating space for himself with his quickness. His blocking is a work in progress, but he could end up being a highly productive Day 3 draft pick if a team utilizes his talent properly.

2015 NFL Draft Profile: James O'Shaughnessy

 

[long distance]

Let me post this clips also here to have a glimpse of JO in real NFL action:

James O'Shaughnessy Gains First Down vs. Broncos
Kansas City Chiefs QB Chase Daniel hits tight end James O'Shaughnessy for a TD

____

His college tape is better than Hollister's both blocking and receiving IMO. I'll try to add some clips later today
____

He has the size, athleticism, skills, versatility, character and attitude to be a productive NFL player. The fact that Andy Reid didn't make a better use of it doesn't mean BB and JM can't. If memory serves me well it won't be the first time..
____

The indications that he can be a solid blocker, receiver and core STer makes him a potential 4 down backup TE . which could be essential in saving a roster spot..

BTW - he was the only TE reported in the two groups covering kick returns so far . moreover he was part of the first group consisted of most remaining core STer from last year:

The first group to cover the kicks, from left to right, consisted of Rowe, Brandon Bolden, James O’Shaughnessy, Slater, Nate Ebner, Jordan Richards, Jonathan Jones, Grissom, Brandon King and Coleman.

 

[Ring 6]

When I read the title I thought I was on a different site.

 

[maineman209]

The Pats can run 2-TE sets with Gronk and Allen, provided that both are healthy at the same time. Even if they are both healthy, adjustments are likely to be made to the plays that are run out of those sets (or altogether different plays from the playbook) to account for the differences between Allen and Bennett. For one thing, Allen is a much smaller player. Bennett is 6060/275 (Gronk-size); Allen is 6031/255 (exact same size as Develin).

Lengel is the only Gronk-size TE currently on the roster at 6070/266. Setting aside his 4.94 40-time (not much worse than Allen's), Lengel also seems to be a pretty decent athlete. His 10-yd (1.66), long jump (117) and shuttle (4.33) are all better than Allen's, and their bench reps and vertical are identical.

The next biggest TEs are Cotton (6045/246) and O'Shaughnessy (6042/248). Hollister (6032/242) is about the same height as Allen/Develin, but not nearly as beefy.

Assuming that the Pats go with three TEs on the 53, the choice will be between the ONE big guy and one of the smaller guys. I'd guess that, all other things being equal, the questions on McD's mind would be, "What parts of the TE playbook might Lengel open up or keep viable if Gronk or Allen gets hurt? What parts might be affected with one of the smaller guys as the 3rd TE?"

However, if they go with Lengel, they could still keep O'Shaughnessy as a deep backup and keep him active most weeks by using him to replace Bolden on ST.

As to O'Shaughnessy's role with the Chiefs ...

In 2014, the Chiefs ran a lot of 2TE sets with Kelce and Fasano. In 2015, with Fasano gone, O'Shaughnessy split offensive snaps as the #2/#3 TE with the much taller Demetrius Harris for the first seven games until O'Shaughnessy got hurt. O'Shaughnessy had 6 catches on 9 targets (67%) for a 14.5 ypc in those seven games (112 snaps), while Harris had 7 catches on 11 targets (64%) for a 10.6 ypc, appearing in all 16 games (338 snaps). So, even though Harris "won" the competition for #2 TE by default, his role in the passing game was different, based on ypc.

By the time 2016 got going, the Chiefs had discovered that Spencer Ware is a helluva receiver, so O'Shaughnessy was behind Kelce, Ware and Harris for non-WR receiving targets (along with a lot of other guys).

BTW, Kelce was the Chiefs' leading receiver in 2016 by a huge margin over #2, Tyreek Hill. And Ware had more catches and a much higher ypc and catch-rate than both Harris and their #4 WR, Wilson.

 

[mgteich]

We can't afford a roster spot for a 4th TE, given that we have 6 WR (including Slater), 3 QB's and a FB.

The Pats can run 2-TE sets with Gronk and Allen, provided that both are healthy at the same time. Even if they are both healthy, adjustments are likely to be made to the plays that are run out of those sets (or altogether different plays from the playbook) to account for the differences between Allen and Bennett. For one thing, Allen is a much smaller player. Bennett is 6060/275 (Gronk-size); Allen is 6031/255 (exact same size as Develin).

Lengel is the only Gronk-size TE currently on the roster at 6070/266. Setting aside his 4.94 40-time (not much worse than Allen's), Lengel also seems to be a pretty decent athlete. His 10-yd (1.66), long jump (117) and shuttle (4.33) are all better than Allen's, and their bench reps and vertical are identical.

The next biggest TEs are Cotton (6045/246) and O'Shaughnessy (6042/248). Hollister (6032/242) is about the same height as Allen/Develin, but not nearly as beefy.

Assuming that the Pats go with three TEs on the 53, the choice will be between the ONE big guy and one of the smaller guys. I'd guess that, all other things being equal, the questions on McD's mind would be, "What parts of the TE playbook might Lengel open up or keep viable if Gronk or Allen gets hurt? What parts might be affected with one of the smaller guys as the 3rd TE?"

However, if they go with Lengel, they could still keep O'Shaughnessy as a deep backup and keep him active most weeks by using him to replace Bolden on ST.

As to O'Shaughnessy's role with the Chiefs ...

In 2014, the Chiefs ran a lot of 2TE sets with Kelce and Fasano. In 2015, with Fasano gone, O'Shaughnessy split offensive snaps as the #2/#3 TE with the much taller Demetrius Harris for the first seven games until O'Shaughnessy got hurt. O'Shaughnessy had 6 catches on 9 targets (67%) for a 14.5 ypc in those seven games (112 snaps), while Harris had 7 catches on 11 targets (64%) for a 10.6 ypc, appearing in all 16 games (338 snaps). So, even though Harris "won" the competition for #2 TE by default, his role in the passing game was different, based on ypc.

By the time 2016 got going, the Chiefs had discovered that Spencer Ware is a helluva receiver, so O'Shaughnessy was behind Kelce, Ware and Harris for non-WR receiving targets (along with a lot of other guys).

BTW, Kelce was the Chiefs' leading receiver in 2016 by a huge margin over #2, Tyreek Hill. And Ware had more catches and a much higher ypc and catch-rate than both Harris and their #4 WR, Wilson.

 

[1960Pats]

The Pats can run 2-TE sets with Gronk and Allen, provided that both are healthy at the same time. Even if they are both healthy, adjustments are likely to be made to the plays that are run out of those sets (or altogether different plays from the playbook) to account for the differences between Allen and Bennett. For one thing, Allen is a much smaller player. Bennett is 6060/275 (Gronk-size); Allen is 6031/255 (exact same size as Develin).

Lengel is the only Gronk-size TE currently on the roster at 6070/266. Setting aside his 4.94 40-time (not much worse than Allen's), Lengel also seems to be a pretty decent athlete. His 10-yd (1.66), long jump (117) and shuttle (4.33) are all better than Allen's, and their bench reps and vertical are identical.

The next biggest TEs are Cotton (6045/246) and O'Shaughnessy (6042/248). Hollister (6032/242) is about the same height as Allen/Develin, but not nearly as beefy.

Assuming that the Pats go with three TEs on the 53, the choice will be between the ONE big guy and one of the smaller guys. I'd guess that, all other things being equal, the questions on McD's mind would be, "What parts of the TE playbook might Lengel open up or keep viable if Gronk or Allen gets hurt? What parts might be affected with one of the smaller guys as the 3rd TE?"

However, if they go with Lengel, they could still keep O'Shaughnessy as a deep backup and keep him active most weeks by using him to replace Bolden on ST.

As to O'Shaughnessy's role with the Chiefs ...

In 2014, the Chiefs ran a lot of 2TE sets with Kelce and Fasano. In 2015, with Fasano gone, O'Shaughnessy split offensive snaps as the #2/#3 TE with the much taller Demetrius Harris for the first seven games until O'Shaughnessy got hurt. O'Shaughnessy had 6 catches on 9 targets (67%) for a 14.5 ypc in those seven games (112 snaps), while Harris had 7 catches on 11 targets (64%) for a 10.6 ypc, appearing in all 16 games (338 snaps). So, even though Harris "won" the competition for #2 TE by default, his role in the passing game was different, based on ypc.

By the time 2016 got going, the Chiefs had discovered that Spencer Ware is a helluva receiver, so O'Shaughnessy was behind Kelce, Ware and Harris for non-WR receiving targets (along with a lot of other guys).

BTW, Kelce was the Chiefs' leading receiver in 2016 by a huge margin over #2, Tyreek Hill. And Ware had more catches and a much higher ypc and catch-rate than both Harris and their #4 WR, Wilson.

I've been pulling for Lengel since the Pats picked him up. It's great to see him with a chance to stick with the Pats again this year.

 

[long distance]

Nice piece on Dwayne Allen by Price

New TE Allen on short shorts, working with Gronk and succeeding Bennett

quote:

When asked about the most surprising thing for him when it comes to the transition from Indy to New England, he was quick to answer.

“How much [better] condition I need to be in,” said Allen, who has struggled with hip, calf, ankle and knee injuries during the course of his NFL career. “That was the No. 1 surprise for me. I need to do a better job of working on my conditioning and getting in better shape.”

 

[PatsFan2]

Not blaming anyone but for once I would like to see the Dual TE set work in our favor.

Chandler, Gronk = Bust because of injuries to both Gronk and Chandler.

Bennett, Gronk = Serviceable because Bennett was able to stay on the field although banged up.

Hopefully this is the year. Allen and Gronk = A dual threat.

How about Gronk finally having an injury free season...*not holding breath*.

 

[Tony2046]

How about Gronk finally having an injury free season...*not holding breath*.

I think a poster mentioned that he was using some of Brady's training techniques. So he's trying something. But yeah, it would be great if he could play all 19.


Edit: There's a thread on the main board about Gronk using TB's training.

 

[PatsFan2]

I think a poster mentioned that he was using some of Brady's training techniques. So he's trying something. But yeah, it would be great if he could play all 19.

You can see the Pats Offense is morphing into a WR type Offense which will make Gronk even more lethal. I would and also think most fans would rather a Playoffs Gronk over a regular season Gronk. I hope they use Gronk but limit him some for the stretch run. C00ks - Hogan - Edelman and our RB's who do you double?? Who do you man up?? I didn't even mention MM and DA. Also Hogan and MM are in their Second years with Brady Hmmmm.