Thoughts on #85 and the WR's

[CrazyDave]

Whenever I see or hear a 'get rid of this guy' comment, the first thing that comes to mind is 'okay, what's the alternative'?

So assuming the Pats do get rid of these two that you deem to be useless, I would like to know your thoughts on how the team would be improved by getting rid of them.

OK, fair enough. Just my opinion, but I'd carry more linemen on both sides of the ball.
I think 6 roster spots is a lot for the WR position. JAG WR's are a dime a dozen all season.
They just released a capable swing tackle, but they keep Price? With guys like Hernandez, Gronkowski and Woodhead, I don't think carryin 5 wrs rather than 6 will hurt the team.
Or, if you're going to carry JAG wr's, why not JAG DB's instead?
Sammy Morris is more valuable to this team than say... Price, no?
I'm sure folks will dissagree with me, but that's ok.

 

[Garbanza]

Screw scribes.

I can't wait for this guy to prove them wrong. You people need to learn how to differentiate between real life football and Madden 2010 on Xbox 360.

I've never played Madden, nor any xbox game, in my life. I have been a Pats fan for longer that most on this board. I just call it like I see it.

I agree with you though - the Scribes are often wrong.

 

[Garbanza]

OK, fair enough. Just my opinion, but I'd carry more linemen on both sides of the ball.
I think 6 roster spots is a lot for the WR position. JAG WR's are a dime a dozen all season.
They just released a capable swing tackle, but they keep Price? With guys like Hernandez, Gronkowski and Woodhead, I don't think carryin 5 wrs rather than 6 will hurt the team.
Or, if you're going to carry JAG wr's, why not JAG DB's instead?
Sammy Morris is more valuable to this team than say... Price, no?
I'm sure folks will dissagree with me, but that's ok.

I think you need at least one receiver that has the threat of being capable of stretching the field some. I know some people think that's Chad, but that's not really his game anymore. I'm hoping that Price COULD be? I 'dunno.....Tate does not fill me with confidence either. Honestly, I think he's a bubble player working himself off the team.

 

[CrazyDave]

I think you need at least one receiver that has the threat of being capable of stretching the field some. I know some people think that's Chad, but that's not really his game anymore. I'm hoping that Price COULD be? I 'dunno.....Tate does not fill me with confidence either. Honestly, I think he's a bubble player working himself off the team.

Agreed. The kickoff rule thing screwed him as well.
I am just not sure the wr position is as crucial as we think it is.
Is it not jus as good to motion say... Woodhead out to the other slot for example, rather than carry a guy to do that twice a game?
I know this: Brady can throw 100 TD's to 100 different guys all season, but if he's face down in the turf come January, AGAIN, those reg season #'s ain't worth ****.

 

[Garbanza]

Agreed. The kickoff rule thing screwed him as well.
I am just not sure the wr position is as crucial as we think it is.
Is it not jus as good to motion say... Woodhead out to the other slot for example, rather than carry a guy to do that twice a game?
I know this: Brady can throw 100 TD's to 100 different guys all season, but if he's face down in the turf come January, AGAIN, those reg season #'s ain't worth ****.

I keep thinking back to the Jets playoff loss. The Jets had the short stuff covered pretty well and there was no threat deep. Plus, they have a great CB tandem - but still, it would have been nice to loosen that secondary up just a bit.

Honestly, I think our best recieving threats are the two TE's.

 

[Ron Sellers]

OK, fair enough. Just my opinion, but I'd carry more linemen on both sides of the ball.
I think 6 roster spots is a lot for the WR position. JAG WR's are a dime a dozen all season.
They just released a capable swing tackle, but they keep Price? With guys like Hernandez, Gronkowski and Woodhead, I don't think carryin 5 wrs rather than 6 will hurt the team.
Or, if you're going to carry JAG wr's, why not JAG DB's instead?
Sammy Morris is more valuable to this team than say... Price, no?
I'm sure folks will dissagree with me, but that's ok.

Thanks for the response, that gives me a better idea of where you're coming from than "they're useless".

I don't disagree that six roster spots is a lot - probably too many - for the WR position. Five WRs makes more sense to me as well.

While JAG WRs may be a dime a dozen, you can say the same about every other position, can't you? If you're alluding to how much they cost, neither Price nor Tate are breaking the bank; Tate makes a salary $525k and a cap figure of $719k; Price is $450k and $634k.

The thing with WRs in the Patriots system is that don't simply run routes; they run routes based on reading the opponent's coverage, and reading it in the same way that the quarterback does. Plugging in a veteran free agent at the position this late in the year probably won't work out very well. If anything one could question the acquisition of Ochocinco in a lockout year with so little time to get the playbook and system down, as opposed to retaining WRs that have been in the system for a full year.

Price is the fastest WR on the team; I'm not sure why we would want to write him off so quickly. Due to NFL rules he couldn't work out with the Pats until after his class graduated last year; by that time he was so far behind in learning the system he couldn't contribute. I would hesitate to hold that against him as evidence that he'll never amount to anything.

As far as using that last (6th) roster spot on another position, I'm not opposed to that at all. But if you dump both Price and Tate what is the team left with looking beyond 2011? In 2012 Ochocinco will be 34, Branch will be 33, and Welker will be 31; at a position which relies on speed and quickness and has a history of those skills eroding overnight when players are on the wrong side of 30, that could be troublesome.

I think it's incumbent that the Pats try to develop at least one of these guys (if not both), similar to how they attempt to develop players at other positions.

 

[Rob0729]

The fact that almost every scribe in Boston beleives Ocho is struggling more than he should be has me giggling. This is assuredly a sign that Chad will have a monster year now. LOL!

The latest excuse: Chad is not allowed to twitter as much and be "himself" therefore it's effecting his game - It's his trying to conform to the "Patriot Way" that has him giving that far-a-way/lost look on his face in every pre-season game thus far. Absolutely hysterical stuff from Gasper this morning.

Who cares what the scribes think? Besides, not everyone in the Boston media thinks that way. Both Matt Flynn and Scott Zolak (two media people who are former players on the offensive side of the ball) say think that it isn't unusual for Ochocinco to struggle with no offseason, mincamps, or OTAs and getting his playbook a month ago.

Yes, guys like Michael Felger who hasn't played a down of football since high school points to Wes Welker as an example why Ochocinco should have playbook down pat because Welker stepped on the field in the first practice of training camp and had his routes down pat. Apparently, Felger thinks that when the Pats traded for Welker in April of 07 the Patriots refused to give him a playbook and barred him from the facilities and contact with any Patriots personnel and players until training camp. He must also think that the Patriots hired a Welker impersonator to show up for passing camp, minicamp, and OTAs.

Media people love to stir up controversy. Virtually every single former player in the media from Troy Brown to Matt Flynn to Scott Zolak have said that Ochocinco's struggles are not surprising because he is learning the playbook on the fly without the benefit of extra time to work with Brady on timing.

 

[JackBauer]

Again. I say it.

Why would you feel the need to reiterate such a silly comment?

 

[Ron Sellers]

Gasper needs to stick to writing about baseball. The only sports writer in the area with a more pronounced aversion for the Pats is Ron Borges, and if you follow him on twitter his antipathy towards Belichick is exposed.

Gasper's analysis and logic is constantly flawed and it is painfully obvious to witness his agenda of stirring the pot while at the same time trying to convince everyone that his negativity is some sort of proof that he's more intelligent and objective than anyone else.

 

[SanAngeloState]

Most likely stinko isn't smart enough to learn a very complicated playbook in a few months....it takes some guys years, apparently. Tate still isn't there.

It was a waste of a pick and he will be an unfortunate bust. Can't win em all I guess.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Gasper needs to stick to writing about baseball. The only sports writer in the area with a more pronounced aversion for the Pats is Ron Borges, and if you follow him on twitter his antipathy towards Belichick is exposed.

Gasper's analysis and logic is constantly flawed and it is painfully obvious to witness his agenda of stirring the pot while at the same time trying to convince everyone that his negativity is some sort of proof that he's more intelligent and objective than anyone else.

I think there is some merit to what Gasper opines. Just don't agree with his solution. No player is above or more important than the system. If Chad isn't a fit it is what it is and that was a risk Bill took in signing a talent he admired that came packaged with a personality he got a kick out of when his antics weren't his problem.

That said, I think Bedard hit the nail on the head with his tweets regarding the entire situation this AM. Chad will remain a work in progress and be given what he can handle until the bye. Welker and Branch and the TE's and RB's will be doing the early season heavy lifting. Thereafter Chad will be expected to emerge as an impact player who, while his salary isn't exorbetent is the highest paid WR on the team. Moss got jettisoned for not being able to be that player...

As for the lack of a vertical threat, this is as Bedard also pointed out a horizontal offense. With the talented duo of TE's we have drafted and hopefully a pretty talented rotation at RB (if the rookies pan out) we should be able to move the chains without getting the QB killed, which is what had been happening increasingly over the last couple of season once the league got over their initial shock and awe when the 2007 NEP vertical game was unveiled.

 

[PlainOldEd]

OK, fair enough........Or, if you're going to carry JAG wr's, why not JAG DB's instead?
Sammy Morris is more valuable to this team than say... Price, no?
I'm sure folks will dissagree with me, but that's ok.

I'd keep Price over Morris 6 days a week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Rob0729]

I think there is some merit to what Gasper opines. Just don't agree with his solution. No player is above or more important than the system. If Chad isn't a fit it is what it is and that was a risk Bill took in signing a talent he admired that came packaged with a personality he got a kick out of when his antics weren't his problem.

That said, I think Bedard hit the nail on the head with his tweets regarding the entire situation this AM. Chad will remain a work in progress and be given what he can handle until the bye. Welker and Branch and the TE's and RB's will be doing the early season heavy lifting. Thereafter Chad will be expected to emerge as an impact player who, while his salary isn't exorbetent is the highest paid WR on the team. Moss got jettisoned for not being able to be that player...

As for the lack of a vertical threat, this is as Bedard also pointed out a horizontal offense. With the talented duo of TE's we have drafted and hopefully a pretty talented rotation at RB (if the rookies pan out) we should be able to move the chains without getting the QB killed, which is what had been happening increasingly over the last couple of season once the league got over their initial shock and awe when the 2007 NEP vertical game was unveiled.

People go way overboard with this vertical threat stuff. The Pats won three Super Bowls with no true vertical threat. The Pats had a great offense last year with no vertical threat carving up some very good defenses. People make the Jets game where the Jets successfully covered Brady's receivers as a statement for this offense and ignore the 16 games that came before it.

Personally, I like a methodical offense. Give me a 14 play, six minute drive for a TD over the one play 70 yard TD drive. There is nothing more heartbreaking for a defense than an opposing offense that can slowly and methodically drive the ball down the field for a TD and the defense can't stop it. Besides, it keeps the Pats' defense fresh all game.

The Pats need a guy who can stretch the field a couple times a game just to keep opposing defenses honest, but they don't need a Moss type consistent deep threat. Ochocinco or possibly Price could be that guy.

I would rather kill an opposing defense with a 1,000 paper cuts than a quick cut to the juggular.

 

[PlainOldEd]

.......
I would rather kill an opposing defense with a 1,000 paper cuts than a quick cut to the juggular.

I agree in principal, but that jugular cut sure can be a thing of beauty. :rocker:

 

[Kid~Brady]

Most likely stinko isn't smart enough to learn a very complicated playbook in a few months....it takes some guys years, apparently. Tate still isn't there.

It was a waste of a pick and he will be an unfortunate bust. Can't win em all I guess.

Do you realize what you just wrote ?

Why would'nt a complicated offense take more than 4 weeks to learn after a lockout that eliminated most OTAs and Mini camps ? If it were that easy than Sanchez could be calling the snaps here.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Most likely stinko isn't smart enough to learn a very complicated playbook in a few months....it takes some guys years, apparently. Tate still isn't there.

It was a waste of a pick and he will be an unfortunate bust. Can't win em all I guess.

It hasnt been months but rather weeks, you might want to give him a reasonable amount of time before you write him off.

 

[Kid~Brady]

The Pat's offense = Organic Chemistry
All other offense's = Public Speaking

 

[TruthSeeker]

I've never been an Ochocinco fan. That being said, my primary concern when he was traded to the Patriots was the amount of passes he dropped. I don't see that changing much and he just drops too many.

I don't expect Ochocinco to really thrive in this offense until halfway through the season. The offense is complex and it takes time to stop thinking about what you're supposed to do and just do it by reflex. Yes, the Patriots can get some value out of him before then, but the real value should be later in the season and in the playoffs.

I really think Chad is willing to conform to "the Patriot way" at least in terms of scaling back his theatrics. He may do a few things but not enough to steal the show or become a distraction to the team.

So what I'm expecting is essentially an average receiver - someone who drops the ball a bit more than some but who is more dangerous when he does have the ball in his hands. He'll run good routes (when he's running the right route!) and create some separation. He'll provide significantly more value later in the season, be a good teammate and fit in well with the offense. But it will take some patience which, for some, is in short supply.

 

[HaliPats]

I'm not sure if this is worth anything but I thought it was interesting

I was listening to the latest Bill Simmons podcast where he talks to Matthew Berry about Fantasy football and Berry likes Ocho to have a big season (since 2003 when he's played all 16 games he's never has had a season with less than a thousands yards, 7 TD's...) but Simmons downplayed his output as a Patriot.

From what Simmons has heard about #85 " They love him, they thinks he's an awesome teammate, he's very deferential to Brady, saying and doing all the right things and can't remember any plays"

Take if for what it's worth, I know Simmons is a controversial figure amongst Boston sports fans (You either love him or hate him) but he does have some connections to the Pats (Moss to the Vikings).

 

[Garbanza]

People go way overboard with this vertical threat stuff. The Pats won three Super Bowls with no true vertical threat. The Pats had a great offense last year with no vertical threat carving up some very good defenses. People make the Jets game where the Jets successfully covered Brady's receivers as a statement for this offense and ignore the 16 games that came before it.

Personally, I like a methodical offense. Give me a 14 play, six minute drive for a TD over the one play 70 yard TD drive. There is nothing more heartbreaking for a defense than an opposing offense that can slowly and methodically drive the ball down the field for a TD and the defense can't stop it. Besides, it keeps the Pats' defense fresh all game.

The Pats need a guy who can stretch the field a couple times a game just to keep opposing defenses honest, but they don't need a Moss type consistent deep threat. Ochocinco or possibly Price could be that guy.

I would rather kill an opposing defense with a 1,000 paper cuts than a quick cut to the juggular.

The offense was exposed as impotent when it really counts, the playoff's.

I dare say they won SB's on Defense more than offense.