This is NOT a Deion Branch support thread...

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

...but with all the hooey we've been hearing from Tom Brady and the coaching staff about how Brady & his recievers need time to get on the same page, witness Branch.

Basically, 2 1/2 games and 8-9 practices, and he and Hasselbeck are hooking up for 6 catches, 76 yards and 2 TDs on Sunday...

And it's not like St. Louis sucked covering Branch either. A couple of those catches were great individual efforts on Deion's part...

Now, that said, I am glad that little money-grubbing weasel is gone and I think in the long run we'll turn out okay...

But, let's face it - save for Chad Jackson's "unrealized potential" (who knows if he'll EVER realize it - see: David Terrell) our recievers are just not that talented!

So let's just stop buying into this propaganda from Foxboro and be realistic. We need better talent!

Doug Gabriel even knows it - why do you think he's lobbying for Randy Moss to come to New England?

I think Moss could be an answer. Yes, character is an issue, but look what the combination of Bill Belichick and a little winning has done for Corey Dillon!

ADPF

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Is Gabriel lobbying or is he sharing his perspective when asked by a reporter? From what I read it's the latter.

Ian, have we reached the one millionth "we must trade for Moss & Porter" thread yet?

 

[BelichickFan]

Is Gabriel lobbying or is he sharing his perspective when asked by a reporter? From what I read it's the latter.

Yes you are right.

On The Twig, he'd better produce more than Gabriel, he cost a #1 and $6M a year. Gabriel cost a #5 and less than $1M a year.

 

[Willie55]

Last I checked Branch and Gabriel have basically the same stats.

 

[DaBruinz]

Did anyone really watch the Seahawks/Rams Game? I did. From what I saw, Branch wasn't running but a half dozen routes. The difference is that the execution was there.

Its unfair to even attempt to compare the ease of learning the Seahawks offense to the ease of learning the Patriots offense unless you have the two play-books in front of you. My guess is that the Patriots offense is pretty complex. Especially when you are expecting the receiver and the QB toi make adjustments at the line and not talk to one another. You are expecting them to think alike. That is significantly harder than giving a WR a half dozen or a dozen different routes and just working on the execution.

On a side note, Deion's had a bit more than 8-9 practices. He's had that the 1st 2 weeks in Seattle. Seattle has also had their BYE week already.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Is Gabriel lobbying or is he sharing his perspective when asked by a reporter? From what I read it's the latter.

Ian, have we reached the one millionth "we must trade for Moss & Porter" thread yet?

I'm not Ian and don't play him on TV. However, we could have reached that # of threads.

Just to cheer everyone up, I fully expect a couple of hundred "we should have traded for Moss & Porter" threads after the trading dealine is over.

 

[BelichickFan]

Do we really need to talk about this Twig figure again ?

Seattle has also had their BYE week already.

That's a good point, hopefully our guys will show some progress after theirs.

Look, Twig SHOULD be better. He did little as a rookie (43-489) so it's not fair to blame Jackson. Admittedly he won't come close to Twig's rookie numbers but Twig didn't miss all of training camp. Caldwell and Gabriel combined are making less than 20% of the Twig's salary.

So, yeah, he produced last week. Did anyone think he wouldn't ? The more pertinent point is he refused to show up for work and we got a #1 pick for him and saved money some of which allowed us to re-sign Koppen. We know he's a good WR. Duh. But he's be sitting at home without the trade.

 

[Brownfan80]

Could we stop with this stupid comparisons? Jesus. Branch is in an offense with TWO established and productive vets over him to take pressure off of him in the passing offense.

Our new WRs are part of an 80% overhaul. They should not have the same expectations as the players that left here for more money. Compare Gabriel or Caldwell to Givens, I don't see many people doing THAT. Why? Because then they wouldn't have any reasons to complain about our WR production.

Branch went to a very good team with a passing attack that was already SB worthy. And you expect him NOT to produce??

They're paying him alot of money and gave up a 1st rounder. We're complaining that he's producing about the same amount as our cheap subsitutes? Wtf??

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Could we stop with this stupid comparisons? Jesus. Branch is in an offense with TWO established and productive vets over him to take pressure off of him in the passing offense.

Our new WRs are part of an 80% overhaul. They should not have the same expectations as the players that left here for more money. Compare Gabriel or Caldwell to Givens, I don't see many people doing THAT. Why? Because then they wouldn't have any reasons to complain about our WR production.

Branch went to a very good team with a passing attack that was already SB worthy. And you expect him NOT to produce??

They're paying him alot of money and gave up a 1st rounder. We're complaining that he's producing about the same amount as our cheap subsitutes? Wtf??

I just want to be very clear about a couple of things.

1) I am no Randy Moss fan. But, I wasn't a big Corey Dillon before he got here, either...

2) I am NOT comparing Deion Branch to our group. I'm just saying look at how quickly he ramped up.

Brown80, you said, "Branch went to a very good team with a passing attack that was already SB worthy. And you expect him NOT to produce??" and I agree with you.

But, I think we are also a very good team with the best QB in the NFL and also Super Bowl worthy, so why wouldn't the same be true here?

Ultimately, my hope - my wish list, if you will - is that:

a) Chad Jackson realizes his potential sooner than later
b) Doug Gabriel plays above his ceiling (ala David Patten when he was here)
c) Reche Caldwell continues to repair his career (because I personally think he has done a good job here, so far, given his limited natural gifts...)
d) Troy Brown just keeps being Troy Brown...an anchor on this team!
e) Jabar Gaffney becomes a very serviceable WR...
f) Ben Watson finds a way to overcome the double teams being thrown at him because teams don't really fear our wideouts...
g) The whole recieving corps comes out of the bye week having found some elusive "zone" and start firing off with Brady...

But that's a lot of "hoping", isn't it?

I find it hard to argue the contention that we just need more talent at WR.

Even if it's just one guy.

I think Belichick & Pioli were dead-on in standing up to that punk Branch, but they must realize our talent level dipped when he left.

Which is not to say our group sucks. Not at all. I think they will emerge as a decent group by the time we get to the finish line.

And I am not even sure Moss is the answer, but in terms of pure talent, he certainly is an upgrade over eveything we've got right now, isn't he?

Even if all my other wish list items above come true, we're still better with Moss than without him, aren't we?

Just some thoughts for discussion. Certainly not trying to contribute to the "drive for a million" Moss & Porter posts!

ADPF

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I just want to be very clear about a couple of things.

1) I am no Randy Moss fan. But, I wasn't a big Corey Dillon before he got here, either...

2) I am NOT comparing Deion Branch to our group. I'm just saying look at how quickly he ramped up.

Brown80, you said, "Branch went to a very good team with a passing attack that was already SB worthy. And you expect him NOT to produce??" and I agree with you.

But, I think we are also a very good team with the best QB in the NFL and also Super Bowl worthy, so why wouldn't the same be true here?

Ultimately, my hope - my wish list, if you will - is that:

a) Chad Jackson realizes his potential sooner than later
b) Doug Gabriel plays above his ceiling (ala David Patten when he was here)
c) Reche Caldwell continues to repair his career (because I personally think he has done a good job here, so far, given his limited natural gifts...)
d) Troy Brown just keeps being Troy Brown...an anchor on this team!
e) Jabar Gaffney becomes a very serviceable WR...
f) Ben Watson finds a way to overcome the double teams being thrown at him because teams don't really fear our wideouts...
g) The whole recieving corps comes out of the bye week having found some elusive "zone" and start firing off with Brady...

But that's a lot of "hoping", isn't it?

I find it hard to argue the contention that we just need more talent at WR.

Even if it's just one guy.

I think Belichick & Pioli were dead-on in standing up to that punk Branch, but they must realize our talent level dipped when he left.

Which is not to say our group sucks. Not at all. I think they will emerge as a decent group by the time we get to the finish line.

And I am not even sure Moss is the answer, but in terms of pure talent, he certainly is an upgrade over eveything we've got right now, isn't he?

Even if all my other wish list items above come true, we're still a better with Moss than without him, aren't we?

Just some thoughts for discussion. Certainly not trying to contribute to the "drive for a million" Moss & Porter posts!

ADPF

A Moss here, a Porter there, and pretty soon your talking some high thread counts.

As long as I buy into the "team" concept reportedly being preached in the Patriots' meeting rooms, I'm going to look at Moss and ponder Oaklands emergence as a Super Bowl contender in the past couple years.

I agree with you on Caldwell, for all the whining about the one alligator arm catch in preseason, he's put it on the line in the regular season.

Jackson the rookie is a training aid, any expectations beyond that are unfair to the kid.

I've watched Garbiel a couple times in Oakland, I think each game and week of practice with Tommy is going to improve things, and folks will be able to go back to taunting NEM for fun.

What is a branch?

 

[Brownfan80]

I just want to be very clear about a couple of things.

1) I am no Randy Moss fan. But, I wasn't a big Corey Dillon before he got here, either...

2) I am NOT comparing Deion Branch to our group. I'm just saying look at how quickly he ramped up.

As he should, for what they paid for him. We paid less for our guys, but we're holding them to Branch's standard?

Brown80, you said, "Branch went to a very good team with a passing attack that was already SB worthy. And you expect him NOT to produce??" and I agree with you.

BUt, I think we are also a very good team with the best QB in the NFL and also Super Bowl worthy, so why wouldn't the same be true here?

Absolutely not. Branch is going into an established system with established players at his position. We lost every single Wide Reciever we had except for Troy Brown. Every WR but 35 year old Troy Brown is a new WR. Just pause and think about that. Branch did not go into that sort of situation.

Ultimately, my hope - my wish list, if you will - is that:

a) Chad Jackson realizes his potential sooner than later

Well, he's got to get 100% healthy before he can even think about realizing any potential.

b) Doug Gabriel plays above his ceiling (ala David Patten when he was here)

He's been in this system a month and a half, how do we even know what his ceiling is yet?

c) Reche Caldwell continues to repair his career (because I personally think he has done a good job here, so far, given his limited natural gifts...)

Caldwell is what he is. We are paying him as such. To expect further production above his paystanding is to expect more than is realistic. I think Caldwell has played about where his money paid says he should.

d) Troy Brown just keeps being Troy Brown...an anchor on this team!

Troy is Troy, but Troy is getting old. He can't keep doing this forever. (can he?)

e) Jabar Gaffney becomes a very serviceable WR...

Gaffney is another new WR in this complex system. Gaffney has less time in this system than any of the other WRs everyone has been complaining about. He is right now 5th on the depthchart. I'm not even sure I expect him to be active yet. Who knows.

f) Ben Watson finds a way to overcome the double teams being thrown at him because teams don't really fear our wideouts...

As a defense you can take any player out of a game if you really want to. Watson will continue to see that sort of coverage. Teams know what he can do.

g) The whole recieving corps comes out of the bye week having found some elusive "zone" and start firing off with Brady...

I think we all hope the passing game makes some progress with the bye week's extra time.

But that's a lot of "hoping", isn't it?

I find it hard to argue the contention that we just need more talent at WR.

Even if it's just one guy.

The problem isn't the talent. We don't even know what the players we already have can really do. Another new WR isn't going to come in and fix anything, he's going to have to do the same things (establish timing, learn the playbook, stay healthy long enough to do these things) that the other guys have already been doing for weeks.

I am not saying our group sucks. Not at all. I think they will emerge as a decent group by the time we get to the finish line.

And I am not even sure Moss is the answer, but in terms of pure talent, he certainly is an upgrade over eveything we've got right now, isn't he?

We are not accumulating talent, we're building a Team. Moss, I feel, does not fit that mantra.

Even if all my other wish list items above come true, we're still a better with Moss than without him, aren't we?

Would we be better on paper? Yes. Would be a better team? Well, look how well most of Moss's teams have done in his history and tell me he's part of a winning formula.

Just some thoughts for discussion. Certainly not trying to contribute to the "drive for a million" Moss & Porter posts!

ADPF

I didn't mean to be rude in my reply, I'm just getting pretty exasperated with all the discussion of our passing game. Very few people are looking at it realistically. There are several that are, but an apparent horde that simply don't understand the situation as it really is (granted, that's as I see it, but still).

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

I didn't mean to be rude in my reply, I'm just getting pretty exasperated with all the discussion of our passing game. Very few people are looking at it realistically. There are several that are, but an apparent horde that simply don't understand the situation as it really is (granted, that's as I see it, but still).

No offense taken...

I love the football talk and you always bring good thoughts to the table...

You made good points in all your responses...

Like I said, I have very mixed feelings about Moss. If we do trade for him, I'll be okay with it and if we don't, I won't think twice about it...

ADPF

 

[Brownfan80]

No offense taken...

I love the football talk and you always bring good thoughts to the table...

You made good points in all your responses...

Like I said, I have very mixed feelings about Moss. If we do trade for him, I'll be okay with it and if we don't, I won't think twice about it...

ADPF

That's about where I am, only I would actually be pretty bummed (not quite upset, but close) if we did trade for Moss. I just have never liked his attitude at all. He's always acted like he's bigger than the game, and bigger than whatever team he's on.

Well, I guess we'll see by 4 pm, either way.

 

[nukin]

Do you think R.Moss is worth a first round pick...?

... perhaps a seattle first round pick?
Sounds crazy, but that would mean we basically traded Branch for Moss.

 

[Bostonian1962]

...but with all the hooey we've been hearing from Tom Brady and the coaching staff about how Brady & his recievers need time to get on the same page, witness Branch.

Basically, 2 1/2 games and 8-9 practices, and he and Hasselbeck are hooking up for 6 catches, 76 yards and 2 TDs on Sunday...

And it's not like St. Louis sucked covering Branch either. A couple of those catches were great individual efforts on Deion's part...

Now, that said, I am glad that little money-grubbing weasel is gone and I think in the long run we'll turn out okay...

But, let's face it - save for Chad Jackson's "unrealized potential" (who knows if he'll EVER realize it - see: David Terrell) our recievers are just not that talented!

So let's just stop buying into this propaganda from Foxboro and be realistic. We need better talent!

Doug Gabriel even knows it - why do you think he's lobbying for Randy Moss to come to New England?

I think Moss could be an answer. Yes, character is an issue, but look what the combination of Bill Belichick and a little winning has done for Corey Dillon!

ADPF

GREAT post!

 

[amazinPats]

I think Belichick & Pioli were dead-on in standing up to that punk Branch

I have problems referring to Deion Branch in these terms as many posters are doing.

He made a money decision which was right for him; and the team got some decent compensation for him. He had a 5 year rookie contract and even had he taken the Patriot offer, he would have been underpaid for 2006 again before his new contract would kick in. I can see why he was upset over his contract. I support the team before I support any individual player. Deion is no longer a Patriot and I don't care how well he does, but I'm not labelling him a punk for doing what he felt he had to do.

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

I have problems referring to Deion Branch in these terms as many posters are doing.

He made a money decision which was right for him; and the team got some decent compensation for him. He had a 5 year rookie contract and even had he taken the Patriot offer, he would have been underpaid for 2006 again before his new contract would kick in. I can see why he was upset over his contract. I support the team before I support any individual player. Deion is no longer a Patriot and I don't care how well he does, but I'm not labelling him a punk for doing what he felt he had to do.

I really don't disparage him for making a money decision. That is his right.

What makes him a punk to me is that he was under contract, and he held out, refused to negotiate a very good first offer from the Pats and basically forced the team's hand.

The thing to do (ala Tedy Bruschi, Troy Brown, et al) is to get your butt to camp, work hard, help the team win, and all of your personal rewards will be forthcoming.

I actually blame Richard Seymour for starting this precedent last season. Before that, you had to have a long memory to recall the last time a Pats' player of any circumstance held out.

ADPF

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Do you think R.Moss is worth a first round pick...?

... perhaps a seattle first round pick?
Sounds crazy, but that would mean we basically traded Branch for Moss.

flea (I love that name BTW...Peppers rule!)...

Branch for Moss...interesting way to look at it...

I wonder if you had thrown that trade out during the offseason, what my reaction might have been...

I'm guessing I would have opted for Branch and listed Moss' character issues, but now. Branch is gone and netting Moss from the transaction looks okay on paper, doesn't it?

ADPF

 

[RayClay]

...but with all the hooey we've been hearing from Tom Brady and the coaching staff about how Brady & his recievers need time to get on the same page, witness Branch.

Basically, 2 1/2 games and 8-9 practices, and he and Hasselbeck are hooking up for 6 catches, 76 yards and 2 TDs on Sunday...

And it's not like St. Louis sucked covering Branch either. A couple of those catches were great individual efforts on Deion's part...

Now, that said, I am glad that little money-grubbing weasel is gone and I think in the long run we'll turn out okay...

But, let's face it - save for Chad Jackson's "unrealized potential" (who knows if he'll EVER realize it - see: David Terrell) our recievers are just not that talented!

So let's just stop buying into this propaganda from Foxboro and be realistic. We need better talent!

Doug Gabriel even knows it - why do you think he's lobbying for Randy Moss to come to New England?

I think Moss could be an answer. Yes, character is an issue, but look what the combination of Bill Belichick and a little winning has done for Corey Dillon!

ADPF

Branch 11 catches 2TDs = doing great

Gabriel 12 catches 2TDs = we have no receivers

Curious world

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