The second round in the 2012 draft

[FredFromDartmouth]

Has anyone got the inside scoop on what happened to the Patriots in the second round? Was there any Patriot Reign-style description of the war room?

As you all know they used their first pick in the second round to get Tavon Wilson and then got scalped when they traded down with pick #62 with Green Bay. Green Bay gave the Patriots their third (90th) and fifth round (163rd) selections for the Patriots second round pick. Green Bay used this pick take standout CB Casey Hayward. Luckily the Patriots traded down again with a Green Bay pick and got Dennard; if it was not for that the second round would have been a total train wreck.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Has anyone go the inside scoop on what happened to the Patriots in the second round? Was there any Patriot Reign-style description of the war room?

As you all know they used their first pick in the second round to get Tavon Wilson and then got scalped when they traded down with pick #62 with Green Bay. Green Bay gave the Patriots their third (90th) and fifth round (163rd) selections for the Patriots second round pick. Green Bay used this pick take standout CB Casey Hayward. Luckily the Patriots traded down again with a Green Bay pick and got Dennard; if it was not for that the second round would have been a total train wreck.

just BB doing his usual huge reach. He'll do it again in May with someone.

 

[Sciz]

There's so much revisionist history being done with Casey Hayward. In college, he was a zone CB who really hadn't shown any ability to play in man coverage. The Pats were in the process of trying to collect CBs that could actually play in man coverage. He was pretty good as a rookie, but played 3 games with 1 start last season. That's nowhere near a "standout," at least not yet.


As for that draft, I think it's pretty clear. Belichick saw somewhere around 25 "top tier" players and used his mid-round picks to trade up and get two of them. After that, there was a middle tier of maybe 20 guys. The rumors are that Belichick wanted Bobby Wagner at 48, but the Seahawks took him first. If I'm remembering correctly, all Belichick had at that point was picks 48 and 62, and it's would've been a horrible idea to trade future picks just to get the guy you want in a bad draft.

After about that 45 or so, it seems Belichick valued every guy about the same. There were reports that he desperately wanted to trade out of 48 but couldn't. He took two trades that were awful according to the trade chart just to accumulate picks.


If you want to bash Belichick for completely failing at evaluations, then go for it. But I think it's completely stupid to accuse him of panicking, reaching for need, or anything like that. There were two other rumors that the Chargers and Texans had second round grades on Wilson, so it's at least conceivable that Belichick wasn't the only guy high on Wilson, as much as "draft experts" will tell us differently. Belichick was the guy who Ozzie Newsome credited with teaching him that value trumps need (which led him to take Lawrence Phillips), so I think it's completely senseless to think that Belichick knew he needed a safety and decided to pick a guy he thought was a fifth rounder. Now he may thought Wilson should be a fifth rounder in a normal draft, but he's not going to draft some guy out of nowhere based on positional need. That's not Belichick. If we're assuming that Wilson is a total bust, then just say that Belichick blew the evaluation. I don't think there's anything more to it than that.

 

[Keyser Söze]

There's so much revisionist history being done with Casey Hayward. In college, he was a zone CB who really hadn't shown any ability to play in man coverage. The Pats were in the process of trying to collect CBs that could actually play in man coverage. He was pretty good as a rookie, but played 3 games with 1 start last season. That's nowhere near a "standout," at least not yet.


As for that draft, I think it's pretty clear. Belichick saw somewhere around 25 "top tier" players and used his mid-round picks to trade up and get two of them. After that, there was a middle tier of maybe 20 guys. The rumors are that Belichick wanted Bobby Wagner at 48, but the Seahawks took him first. If I'm remembering correctly, all Belichick had at that point was picks 48 and 62, and it's would've been a horrible idea to trade future picks just to get the guy you want in a bad draft.

After about that 45 or so, it seems Belichick valued every guy about the same. There were reports that he desperately wanted to trade out of 48 but couldn't. He took two trades that were awful according to the trade chart just to accumulate picks.


If you want to bash Belichick for completely failing at evaluations, then go for it. But I think it's completely stupid to accuse him of panicking, reaching for need, or anything like that. There were two other rumors that the Chargers and Texans had second round grades on Wilson, so it's at least conceivable that Belichick wasn't the only guy high on Wilson, as much as "draft experts" will tell us differently. Belichick was the guy who Ozzie Newsome credited with teaching him that value trumps need (which led him to take Lawrence Phillips), so I think it's completely senseless to think that Belichick knew he needed a safety and decided to pick a guy he thought was a fifth rounder. Now he may thought Wilson should be a fifth rounder in a normal draft, but he's not going to draft some guy out of nowhere based on positional need. That's not Belichick. If we're assuming that Wilson is a total bust, then just say that Belichick blew the evaluation. I don't think there's anything more to it than that.

woah, 2 teams out of 32 had a 2nd round grade on him? Well I'm sold!

 

[Sfpat]

The below is copied from a thread originally posted by rdf63 on 12/10/2011 (I don't know how to copy previous posts into another thread). Note the grade given Wilson at the time (projected 4-5th round). At his pro-day, he ran a 4.5 and 4.5-second 40-yard dash, a 32-inch vertical jump, 10-4 broad jump, 4.16-second short shuttle, 7.04-second three-cone drill and bench pressed 225 pounds 17 times, overall good but not great results. With number like these, it's possible that he improved his grade in the eyes of some and thus the reason BB picked him at 48. And the rest of the list (who would have been available to the Pats) is meh... Interesting that Smith was given a 5-7 round grade at that time.

Some information about safeties in the 2012 draft with help from the Walkerfootball.com site.

T.J. McDonald, S, USC Height: 6-2. Weight: 205 Projected 40 Time: 4.49 Projected Round (2012): 1-2. McDonald has put together a strong season. He has 57 tackles with two interceptions, one pass broken up and a blocked kick. McDonald's two interceptions came against Arizona quarterback Nick Foles. McDonald is a hard-hitter who has drawn some penalties for his physical play.

Mark Barron, SS, Alabama Height: 6-2. Weight: 215. Projected 40 Time: 4.61 Projected Round (2012): 2. Barron has played well this season. He has totaled 65 tackles with four tackles for a loss, five passes broken up and two interceptions. He is in the discussion with McDonald as the hardest hitting safety in the draft.

Robert Lester, S, Alabama Height: 6-2. Weight: 210. Projected 40 Time: 4.51Projected Round (2012): 2. Lester hasn't been as rock solid in coverage this season with less splash plays so his stock has fallen.

Markelle Martin, S, Oklahoma State Height: 6-1. Weight: 202. Projected 40 Time: 4.58. Projected Round (2012): 2-3. Martin has 62 tackles with four tackles for a loss, 10 passes broken up and two forced fumbles. Martin is a natural free safety who patrols the deep part of the field well.

Ray Ray Armstrong, SS, Miami Height: 6-4. Weight: 220. Projected 40 Time: 4.57. Projected Round (2012): 2-3. Armstrong was suspended for the first four games of the season with off the field problems.

Winston Guy Jr., S, Kentucky Height: 6-1. Weight: 210 Projected 40 Time: 4.49. Projected Round (2012): 3. Guy Jr. started out the season with a huge game against Western Kentucky. He recorded 10 tackles with 2.5 tackles for a loss and two interceptions in the season opener and has stayed consistent and his stock is on the rise.

Trumaine Johnson, FS/CB, Montana Height: 6-2. Weight: 197. Projected 40 Time: 4.54. Projected Round (2012): 3-4. Johnson held his own against Tennessee in the first game of the season with seven tackles, a pass broken up and a forced fumble. Johnson killed his climb up draft boards by getting arrested in October.

Brandon Taylor, FS, LSU Height: 6-0. Weight: 191. Projected 40 Time: 4.51. Projected Round (2012): 3-4. Taylor has played well this season and his stock is on the rise. Taylor has 61 tackles with two interceptions, five passes broken up and 5.5 tackles for a loss. He had strong games against West Virginia and Florida.

Delano Howell, SS, Stanford Height: 5-11. Weight: 198. Projected 40 Time: 4.53. Projected Round (2012): 3-4. He hasn't been bad, but has not been great.

Trenton Robinson, FS, Michigan State Height: 6-2. Weight: 210. Projected 40 Time: 4.53. Projected Round (2012): 4. Robinson has 54 tackles with four interceptions this season and a quality run defender.

Eddie Whitley, FS, Virginia Tech Height: 6-1. Weight: 190. Projected 40 Time: 4.42. Projected Round (2012): 4-5. Whitley has 73 tackles with two interceptions and three passes broken up. His run defense looked weak against Miami, among others. Whitley projects as a free safety in the NFL.

Aaron Henry, FS, Wisconsin Height: 6-0. Weight: 205. Projected 40 Time: 4.48. Projected Round (2012): 4-5.Henry has 51 tackles with three tackles for a loss, three interceptions and three passes broken up. Aaron Henry is a strong run defender who shows good instincts.

Tavon Wilson, SS, Illinois Height: 6-0. Weight: 205. Projected 40 Time: 4.51. Projected Round (2012): 4-5. Wilson is a good athlete and could be a quality sleeper/developmental prospect. Tavon Wilson is an experienced starter who has been a solid player for Illinois.

Kenny Tate, SS, Maryland Height: 6-4. Weight: 220 Projected 40 Time: 4.64. Projected Round (2012): 4-5. Tate is a safety/linebacker tweener who should probably trim down and play safety as a pro.

Neiko Thorpe, FS, Auburn Height: 6-3. Weight: 191. Projected 40 Time: 4.52. Projected Round (2012): 4-5. Thorpe has been very active and while he played corner, his height may make a better safety, especially at the NFL level where he can run with speed receivers at corner.

Tony Dye, SS, UCLA Height: 5-11. Weight: 204. Projected 40 Time: 4.50. Projected Round (2012): 4-5. He missed seven games with a neck injury and that hurt his draft stock significantly.

Blake Gideon, FS, Texas Height: 6-1. Weight: 200. Projected 40 Time: 4.54. Projected Round (2012): 4-5. Gideon has 52 tackles with four passes defended, one sack and one interception. He has consistently been around the ball for the Longhorns and is in his fourth season as a starter for Texas.

Rashard Hall, FS, Clemson Height: 6-2. Weight: 195. Projected 40 Time: 4.48. Projected Round (2012): 5-6. Hall has been quiet and inconsistent at times.

Lance Mitchell, S, Oregon State Height: 6-2. Weight: 205. Projected 40 Time: 4.60. Projected Round (2012): 5-6. Lance Mitchell is a decent run defender.

George Iloka, S, Boise State Height: 6-3. Weight: 207. Projected 40 Time: 4.58. Projected Round (2012): 5-6. Iloka leads Boise State in tackles with 53.Iloka is an experienced player who is a good athlete.

Jerrell Young, FS, South Florida Height: 6-1. Weight: 205. Projected 40 Time: 4.53. Projected Round (2012): 5-6. In the first game of the season, Young had a massive game in the Bulls' road win over Notre Damen but in other games has not come close to that level of impact.

Harrison Smith, S, Notre Dame Height: 6-2. Weight: 215. Projected 40 Time: 4.61. Projected Round (2012): 5-7. Smith has run hot and cold for Notre Dame this season.
Like ied from

 

[patchick]

Isn't it curious how nobody ever says...

"Has anyone go the inside scoop on what happened to the Patriots in the second round? Was there any Patriot Reign-style description of the war room?"

...about the 2010 second round, when the Pats traded away a pick to move up just 2 slots and sneak ahead of Baltimore and nab Rob Gronkowski, a player nobody had been linking to them ? Now THAT sounds like an interesting story!

Nah, nobody likes happy stories. Tell me the one about Tavon Wilson again! And again, and again, and again...

 

[patsinthesnow]

There's so much revisionist history being done with Casey Hayward. In college, he was a zone CB who really hadn't shown any ability to play in man coverage. The Pats were in the process of trying to collect CBs that could actually play in man coverage. He was pretty good as a rookie, but played 3 games with 1 start last season. That's nowhere near a "standout," at least not yet.


As for that draft, I think it's pretty clear. Belichick saw somewhere around 25 "top tier" players and used his mid-round picks to trade up and get two of them. After that, there was a middle tier of maybe 20 guys. The rumors are that Belichick wanted Bobby Wagner at 48, but the Seahawks took him first. If I'm remembering correctly, all Belichick had at that point was picks 48 and 62, and it's would've been a horrible idea to trade future picks just to get the guy you want in a bad draft.

After about that 45 or so, it seems Belichick valued every guy about the same. There were reports that he desperately wanted to trade out of 48 but couldn't. He took two trades that were awful according to the trade chart just to accumulate picks.


If you want to bash Belichick for completely failing at evaluations, then go for it. But I think it's completely stupid to accuse him of panicking, reaching for need, or anything like that. There were two other rumors that the Chargers and Texans had second round grades on Wilson, so it's at least conceivable that Belichick wasn't the only guy high on Wilson, as much as "draft experts" will tell us differently. Belichick was the guy who Ozzie Newsome credited with teaching him that value trumps need (which led him to take Lawrence Phillips), so I think it's completely senseless to think that Belichick knew he needed a safety and decided to pick a guy he thought was a fifth rounder. Now he may thought Wilson should be a fifth rounder in a normal draft, but he's not going to draft some guy out of nowhere based on positional need. That's not Belichick. If we're assuming that Wilson is a total bust, then just say that Belichick blew the evaluation. I don't think there's anything more to it than that.

The shocking thing to this day is BB actually thought Tavon Wilson was a better football player that could help the Patriots win than Lavonte David.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/search.php?searchid=1358994&pp=25&page=163

*wonders if david could last to 48*

That'd be amazing.

When looking at players available, the pats will get a quality player at 48 if they stay.

Lavonte David, Stephen Hill, Janoris Jenkins, Alshon Jeffery, Rueben Randle,...

I understand size/scheme, but BB could of found a role for David. He was just a flat out great football play. Still irks me to this day. One of BB's few epic brainfarts.

 

[Sciz]

Speaking of safety picks that make people upset, we get a little peek at the Pats' ratings in this video about the Ryan and Harmon picks.

88. Corey Lemonier, 5.0
89. Brennan Williams, 7.0
90. Kayvon Webster, 4.5
91. Duron Harmon, 5.5

Ryan, Harmon reflect on last year

(Brennan Williams was recovering from a torn labrum, which may or may not be reflected in that 7.0. He ended up missing the entire season with a knee injury, including microfracture surgery.)

 

[Sciz]

The shocking thing to this day is BB actually thought Tavon Wilson was a better football player that could help the Patriots win than Lavonte David.

I understand size, but BB could of found a role for him. Still irks me to this day. One of his few epic brainfarts.

I'm still not buying it. Belichick has never had a "shoot the gap" or "run around the blocker" LB. It's just not his philosophy. He has essentially required that any starting LB be able to take on blockers. If he were given David and told to fit him in then I'm sure he could, but he's not going to go out of his way to add that guy to his team. A mid-late second round pick is not worth changing your defensive philosophy for.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm still not buying it. Belichick has never had a "shoot the gap" or "run around the blocker" LB. It's just not his philosophy. He has essentially required that any starting LB be able to take on blockers. If he were given David and told to fit him in then I'm sure he could, but he's not going to go out of his way to add that guy to his team. A mid-late second round pick is not worth changing your defensive philosophy for.

But David's not a "run around the blocker" LB. He has terrific core strength and is quite adept at taking on blockers. That's part of what made him so exceptional, IMO. Christian Jones is another guy who is very adept at taking on blockers (he was even played at defensive tackle at times this year, at 237#).

 

[Sfpat]

I'm still not buying it. Belichick has never had a "shoot the gap" or "run around the blocker" LB. It's just not his philosophy. He has essentially required that any starting LB be able to take on blockers. If he were given David and told to fit him in then I'm sure he could, but he's not going to go out of his way to add that guy to his team. A mid-late second round pick is not worth changing your defensive philosophy for.

I would think that David would have been a good safety conversion

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

If you want to bash Belichick for completely failing at evaluations, then go for it. But I think it's completely stupid to accuse him of panicking, reaching for need, or anything like that. There were two other rumors that the Chargers and Texans had second round grades on Wilson, so it's at least conceivable that Belichick wasn't the only guy high on Wilson, as much as "draft experts" will tell us differently. Belichick was the guy who Ozzie Newsome credited with teaching him that value trumps need (which led him to take Lawrence Phillips),

.

He was indeed desperate for a tradedown; he did not have many late round picks that year and we all know how he likes to fiddle around with the late round picks for things like rugby players. He was also desperate for a safety; that is the only thing that makes sense, and convinced himself that Wilson was the guy (I think this is called a reach). Panic? Maybe. Frustration, yes. Reach? yes.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Isn't it curious how nobody ever says...



...about the 2010 second round, when the Pats traded away a pick to move up just 2 slots and sneak ahead of Baltimore and nab Rob Gronkowski, a player nobody had been linking to them ? Now THAT sounds like an interesting story!

Nah, nobody likes happy stories. Tell me the one about Tavon Wilson again! And again, and again, and again...

This is actually a great point; it is hard to outfox Ozzy...

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

He was indeed desperate for a tradedown; he did not have many late round picks that year and we all know how he likes to fiddle around with the late round picks for things like rugby players. He was also desperate for a safety; that is the only thing that makes sense, and convinced himself that Wilson was the guy (I think this is called a reach). Panic? Maybe. Frustration, yes. Reach? yes.

Would you be complaining if the Pats were the one team foolish enough to put a high 2nd round grade on Richard Sherman in 2011 and we took him at pick #33 instead of Dowling? Could you imagine? Using the 33rd pick in the draft for a guy that is late 4th round quality at best? How brutal would that have been?

I obviously don't like when the Pats miss but it happens. It will always happen. It will happen to every single team in the league every single year. But the Pats miss less than most others. I'll take it.

 

[Ivan]

You know, the Patriots would be one of the best team's in football if Belichick didn't suck so bad.

On the other hand maybe it isn't Belichick who sucks.........

 

[ctpatsfan77]

This is actually a great point; it is hard to outfox Ozzy...

Aside from the fact that the Pats did it three times in that one draft. . . .

 

[Ivan]

This thread demonstrates perfectly just how desperate fred is to take a a sh.t on Belichick. Belichick is coming off a season where he did one of the best coaching jobs of anyone in the game, and one of the best coaching jobs of his career and fred wants to go back a couple of drafts, single out a pick he didn't like, and act as if that merits a thread now, while never mentioning all of the good choices or the job he did this season. What a db.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

This thread demonstrates perfectly just how desperate fred is to take a a sh.t on Belichick. Belichick is coming off a season where he did one of the best coaching jobs of anyone in the game, and one of the best coaching jobs of his career and fred wants to go back a couple of drafts, single out a pick he didn't like, and act as if that merits a thread now, while never mentioning all of the good choices or the job he did this season. What a db.

Compared to who? Compared to Borges or O'Shaunessy or Felger, I am a regular Pollyanna like the rest of you. And is this team really beyond criticism? What's wrong with critiquing them? I am sure that BB himself was very critical of the way they handled the second round and has taken steps to prevent it from happening again; the 2013 draft was stellar--no obvious flubs and some home runs such as Jamie Collins.

 

[mayoclinic]

Compared to who? Compared to Borges or O'Shaunessy or Felger, I am a regular Pollyanna like the rest of you. And is this team really beyond criticism? What's wrong with critiquing them? I am sure that BB himself was very critical of the way they handled the second round and has taken steps to prevent it from happening again; the 2013 draft was stellar--no obvious flubs and some home runs such as Jamie Collins.

Yes but this is really more like "the fifth round of 'the second round in the 2012 draft'". Do we have to keep discussing this ad nauseum?

 

[Keyser Söze]

You know, the Patriots would be one of the best team's in football if Belichick didn't suck so bad.

On the other hand maybe it isn't Belichick who sucks.........

You know, the Patriots would have won at least 2 more SB if BB the GM had made smarter choices. Stop bringing in that garbage about him sucking. He's an amazing coach, the best of all time. But objectively I'm fine with calling it how it is, he's made some mistakes as GM.