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The David Givens Delusion


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Branch wanted in the neighborhood of 7M per year. Instead of caving in we got a 2007 1st rounder.

I have a feeling with the great increases in the cap that by the 2007 draft Branch's salary demands aren't going to look the least bit out of line.
 
I think Brady's confidence and comfort in Givens is being under estimated here. Yes, Reche may be just as good if not better in the future. But I think if we had David and Reche here the offense would be a lot better. I think if we had JUST lost David or JUST lost Deion then there wouldnt be a problem. But since we lost BOTH it has really held the passing game back.
 
Not so fast -

I wouldn't trade Caldwell or C. Jackson for Givens.

Going beyond those two it's an unfair comparison, since Givens is a #2.

Givens is true quantity..I thi nk that Brady would make this trade in a heart beat....
 
Not so fast -

I wouldn't trade Caldwell or C. Jackson for Givens.

Going beyond those two it's an unfair comparison, since Givens is a #2.

I assume that you mean that you would not trade Caldwell, at $500K, for Givens, at $5M.

If that's what you mean, then I agree.
 
Branch is a totally legit "loss," but Givens is not since he's been ably replaced by Caldwell.

Can we please try to stay on point?

Instead of "ably", how about "marginally"?
 
Instead of "ably", how about "marginally"?



Caldwell 2006: Rec-53 Yds-611 TD-3 **With 2 games to go
Givens' Best Year w/ Pats: Rec-59 Yds-738 TD-2

So the question in response to your statement would be "whaaaaaaaat?"
 
And I wasn't going to even mention the disparities between the two this year!

Givens: Rec-8 Yds-104 TD-0 (of course, he's been hurt-but wasn;t that the rap before on Caldwell?)

Caldwell Rec-53 Tds-611 TD-3 for 16% of the price of Givens! (According to Miguel, his 2006 cap hit is $906k)

Please tell us how the Titans front office feels compared to the Pats front office on this one?
 
Well, except for the fact that in Branch's absence Givens averaged just under 5 receptions per game for an insane 19+ yards per average (38 catches for 739 yards) and put up 4 100+ yard games. In 14 games this year Reche is averaging just under 4 receptions per game for 11.5 yards per average (53 catches for 611 yards) and he's had 1 100+ yard game. In fact in the last two weeks he's only managed a total of 7 receptions for 34 yards.

Sorry, Mo. Not sure where you got your stats, but they are wrong.

During 2004, when Branch missed 7 games (Buffalo to Buffalo), Givens averaged 4.57 catches per game for 72.9 YPG. He had 32 catches for 510 yards. Not sure where you got the 38 for 739 from.

Now, why is it that you insist on comparing the offenses and then blaming the players? The players aren't the ones calling the plays. Brady, McDaniels and Belichick are. Caldwell is the go to guy on 3rd downs, more often than not. So, his yardage isn't going to be as high.




And then there were Givens playoff performances. Maybe you should just review his Pat's bio - and then we can all hope he didn't set the post season bar too high for Reche.

"Career Highlights

Givens enjoyed a successful 2004 season, leading the Patriots with career-high 56 receptions and 874 yards. He was also able to stretch the field, with 14 receptions of 20 yards or more, including a season-best 50-yard catch against St. Louis (11/07/04).

Givens caught a touchdown pass in each of the Patriots’ three postseason games in 2004, including a 4-yard touchdown grab in Super Bowl XXXIX.

Givens exceeded 100 receiving yards in four games in 2004, the most by a Patriot in a single season in six years, dating back to when Terry Glenn also did it four times in 1999.

Givens became the Patriots’ all-time postseason leader for touchdown receptions (5) in 2004, surpassing Stanley Morgan (3).

Givens was a key part of the Patriots offense in the 2003 postseason, tying Troy Brown for the team lead with 17 receptions and leading the squad with two touchdowns.

Givens enjoyed a solid 2003 season in his second year as a pro. He led the team with seven touchdowns and finished second on the squad with 510 receiving yards. He was also a deep threat, catching nine passes of 20 yards or more.

Givens made a big impact in the Patriots’ victory in Super Bowl XXXVIII. He caught a 5-yard touchdown pass to give New England a 14-7 lead just before halftime, then grabbed two passes for a total of 43 yards on the Patriots’ key fourth-quarter touchdown drive that erased a one-point deficit and gave them a 29-22 lead late in the game.

Givens led the team in receptions in New England’s first two postseason games in 2003 – against Tennessee (4 catches) in the divisional playoffs and against Indianapolis (8 catches) in the AFC Championship Game."

No one is forgetting anything that Givens did. However, don't act like he's some hotshot that the Patriots were stupid for letting get away. Givens benefitted tremendously from the fact that he had Deion Branch opposite him drawing double teams, that he had Tom Brady throwing him the ball and Charlie Weiss calling the plays.

Caldwell hasn't done all the things you've mentioned, but Caldwell also wasn't in that offense. Caldwell has been used as a decoy on more than a few occasions during the season and opened things up for Watson and the others.
 
And I wasn't going to even mention the disparities between the two this year!

Givens: Rec-8 Yds-104 TD-0 (of course, he's been hurt-but wasn;t that the rap before on Caldwell?)

Caldwell Rec-53 Tds-611 TD-3 for 16% of the price of Givens! (According to Miguel, his 2006 cap hit is $906k)

Please tell us how the Titans front office feels compared to the Pats front office on this one?


I would not have paid Givens what the Titans paid him. On that, I think most of us are in agreement.

However, I strongly disagree that Caldwell = Givens. Reliability, strength, explosion, blocking, YAC - you name it, and Givens is superior.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
 
I suppose Givens' TD catches in 8 straight postseason games meant nothing: I guess those were a delusion too.
 
I would not have paid Givens what the Titans paid him. On that, I think most of us are in agreement.

However, I strongly disagree that Caldwell = Givens. Reliability, strength, explosion, blocking, YAC - you name it, and Givens is superior.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I name speed, agility, and quickness. Caldwell is clearly superior to Givens in all three.

Givens is JAG. So is Caldwell. Both are acceptable #2 or #3 receivers, neither is a world beater.

The Titan's were insane to pay Givens what they did, the Patriots were smart to pick up Caldwell.

As many have said, the real loss was Branch. Losing Branch makes the Givens loss painful. If Branch had stayed, Caldwell for Givens would have been a great move. Caldwell (etc) for Branch and Givens is a disaster.

But that's no excuse for hyping Givens and denigrating Caldwell.
 
I suppose Givens' TD catches in 8 straight postseason games meant nothing: I guess those were a delusion too.

Now THERE'S a straw man argument. NOBODY is saying that. You guys are getting so defensive of the guy, like we're totally running him down and saying he was no good whatsoever. Give me a break. Argue something legitimate.
 
Now THERE'S a straw man argument. NOBODY is saying that. You guys are getting so defensive of the guy, like we're totally running him down and saying he was no good whatsoever. Give me a break. Argue something legitimate.
Givens was a cog in the wheel. Do the Patriots have a WR this year you could say that about? Caldwell? If so, with Branch and Givens gone, I'd say we're down 1 when it comes to cogs. You probably don't win a super bowl with ANY missing cogs. It's too bad because the rest of the team looks super bowl worthy this year.
 
I would not have paid Givens what the Titans paid him. On that, I think most of us are in agreement.

However, I strongly disagree that Caldwell = Givens. Reliability, strength, explosion, blocking, YAC - you name it, and Givens is superior.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

That's cool. I disagree, but I respect your point.
 
There certainly is an awful lot of emotion around Givens vs Caldwell comparisons, although I note from the recent poll that 70% of us think Reche Caldwell will definitely start again next year:

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=46461

But there's obviously a vocal minority that continues to despise the guy.

Football Outsiders stats are always interesting. Like all stats they have the virtue of objectivity, and unlike most they attempt to assess performance on a per play basis adjusted for the difficulty of the opponent.

And for those who think I'm cherrypicking stats, you're more than welcome to adduce your own.

So what do Football Outsiders stats they say right now about Caldwell now (we'll compare to Givens later)?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

He is the 34th best receiver in the league in point contribution above replacement (average) at 13.0 DPAR, and 32nd best in defense adjusted average above replacement per play at 8.5%.

This fits what I think most of us observe, i.e. that Caldwell is a terrible #1 receiver, a decent #2, and an excellent #3 by league standards.

Unfortunately, he's our #1, and gets vilified for obviously not being a replacement for Branch..

I'm not going to reprise the debate about whether Caldwell would be better or worse if Branch or Givens were still here, except to say that the only other WR we have with over 50 passes attempted is Troy Brown, who is the 46th ranked receiver with a DVOA of -1.5%, i.e. below average. Again, that seems about right.

None of the rest of our receivers had 50 or more attempts so far, but amusingly, Chad Jackson has a DVOA of 33.3% on 16 attempts. If by some miracle he held that performance for 34 more attempts, he'd be second in the league behind Reggie Wayne's 35.4%! Doug Gabriel was -1.8%, BTW.

Shockingly, Deion Branch is having a significantly worse year than Caldwell, even worse than Brown, worse than Gabriel, at a 51st ranked DVOA of -5.1%. Imagine the uproar if Belioli had given a 1st rounder for Caldwell, yet Seattle's getting far worse performance out of Branch.

Givens has of course been hurt this year, and only 20 passes were thrown his way, with a truly awful DVOA of -32.0%.

To get back to the point of this thread, let's look last Givens last year: he was the 35th ranked receiver with a DVOA of 5.5%, i.e. a little worse than Caldwell this year. Again, despite the fury of his support on this thread, I think this aligns well with what 70% of us see and think, that Givens was an OK #2 receiver last year and Caldwell is a more than adequate replacement.

To be fair, Givens had an extraordinary year in 2003, with a 3rd ranked DVOA of 55.9%, far better than even Branch has ever had. Memories of that extraordinary year probably motivate his fervent supporters here. But he's regressed since, with a 31st ranked 16.6% DVOA in 2004 and was plain mediocre last year.

Branch last year was the 13th ranked receiver with a DVOA of 19.0%, and significantly produced 27.5 points above average over the season. Add those 27.5pts to this years offense and we're likely 12-2 or even 13-1 right now, and thinking 4th ring.

But there's still a puzzle here, because Branch isn't producing in Seattle, Givens looked terrible, and Caldwell is having a career year. We can attribute that to the Brady effect, as Brady was able to elevate Branch, Givens, Caldwell, and Patten vs their performance elsewhere. But Brady can't work his magic with every receiver, and the stats say we have this year in totality a terrible WR group, with Caldwell being the only above average receiver.

I have to wonder if Brady is having a down year for some reason other than the switch in wide receivers. In 2005 DPAR says Brady contributed 104pts above average; this year he's so far only contributed 59pts. His DVOA was 4th ranked at 30.9%, and this year he's 10th ranked at 15.8%. That fall off aligns with his failure to win enough votes (other than from fans) to make the pro-bowl this year.

There's a chicken and egg problem here, and it's easy to blame his loss of receivers, but last years receivers were nothing special and those same receivers are terrible with other teams. I'm beginning to suspect that while the downgrade of his receivers is real, Brady's performance has taken a disproportionate drop. Maybe it's the disruption of the change, maybe he really is injured, maybe he's just having an off year, but I think there may be a Brady factor as well this year.

My guess and hope is that it's the disruption; it may be as simple as bad luck due to the extraordinary number of turnovers this year. I'd like to believe Brady will step up his game and again carry the offense despite not having great receivers. But I wouldn't bet on it. Our best hope is with our defense and our extraordinary special teams -- and that on offense the turnovers regress to the mean, Watson, Maroney, and O'C return, Graham stays healthy, and Dillon steps up his game in the playoffs.
 
There's a chicken and egg problem here, and it's easy to blame his loss of receivers, but last years receivers were nothing special and those same receivers are terrible with other teams. I'm beginning to suspect that while the downgrade of his receivers is real, Brady's performance has taken a disproportionate drop. Maybe it's the disruption of the change, maybe he really is injured, maybe he's just having an off year, but I think there may be a Brady factor as well this year.

My guess and hope is that it's the disruption; it may be as simple as bad luck due to the extraordinary number of turnovers this year. I'd like to believe Brady will step up his game and again carry the offense despite not having great receivers. But I wouldn't bet on it. Our best hope is with our defense and our extraordinary special teams -- and that on offense the turnovers regress to the mean, Watson, Maroney, and O'C return, Graham stays healthy, and Dillon steps up his game in the playoffs.
A well written analysis of the situation as I see it when trying to breakdown tape. While the WR corps is still developing and fitting into this offense, Brady himself has had alternate targets in the backs and TEs who can get the job done. There is enough anecdotal evidence to show Tommy off target just enough to make things difficult for receivers he has some familiarity with - hopefully this will improve. I won't speculate as to a cause, we're unlikely to ever know.

The Chicago game proved this offense (when Maroney and Watson are healthy) can move the ball against a top rated defense. Getting Tommy all his tools back in working order is a top priority; it will make the Jacksonville game difficult, but winnable, if he doesn't have them. He himself needs to shake off whatever outside issues may be involved in pulling him off-target, and gut out any physical issues (a challenge I can attest too and I wish him and the trainers luck in dealing with any health concern).

Those who choose to blame the Offensive Coordinator are very confused about the difference between execution and play-calling. The problem is on the field and not on the play list.

Well Done Kas!
 
OUTSTANDING POSTS from Box O' and, especially, Kasmir. Really well done, appreciate the effort. I welcome any compelling analysis from those on the other side of the debate. I'll wait. Tick tock, tick tock...
 
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