Stanzi

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Herc, I've asked before but you may have missed it - what are your thoughts on Adam Weber as a 7th/UDFA project?

Box, a man as esteemed as you (especially among my fellow draftniks) deserves a response. I actually did answer you before, see post 24. I am reposting what I said, editing out the anti-Stanzi parts, and adding a little new flava:

Weber was a very unpopular player here in MN, but he also had at least 3 offensive coordinators, and each time they were changing the system. I think he is a good athlete with a solid arm, and he did start for 4 years. I would take a look at him as a UDFA, although he has displayed questionable accuracy.

New commentary:

Weber would be worth a flier, but you have to understand he has never really been an accurate quarterback. In my opinion, Ben Chappell is the under the radar Big Ten quarterback worth taking a flier on. Good size, good accuracy, terrible team that kept him under the radar.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box, a man as esteemed as you (especially among my fellow draftniks) deserves a response. I actually did answer you before, see post 24. I am reposting what I said, editing out the anti-Stanzi parts, and adding a little new flava:

Weber was a very unpopular player here in MN, but he also had at least 3 offensive coordinators, and each time they were changing the system. I think he is a good athlete with a solid arm, and he did start for 4 years. I would take a look at him as a UDFA, although he has displayed questionable accuracy.

New commentary:

Weber would be worth a flier, but you have to understand he has never really been an accurate quarterback. In my opinion, Ben Chappell is the under the radar Big Ten quarterback worth taking a flier on. Good size, good accuracy, terrible team that kept him under the radar.

Yikes! Inattention to detail strikes again! Thank you for both responses, I appreciate your kindness and tolerance with my error.

I agree with you on Stanzi, it's always seemed as if the team won despite him. I had not paid any attention to Weber before this past season, but watching him in a couple games it seemed he had the poise I look for, coupled with the will to push a mediocre team. Chappell has been one I knew NE was watching closely.

I actually like NE's chances of finding another quality prospect in the late rounds/UDFA ranks whom they can shape into, at minimum, a decent NFL journeyman.

 

[BPF]

Fred, I am a big Dalton fan. Spread QB, but I like his accuracy. I believe that Newton and Gabbert have big bust potential, agreed there. I think Ponder can be a good QB, assuming he stays healthy.

The most overated QB next to Newton is Dalton. Yes he does have intangibles but he's not at all accurate over 15 yds. He has bad feet and throws off his back foot way too much for my liking. Forces way too many balls into coverage. Ponder makes too many bone headed throws and has a weak arm, he'll struggle with the wind in the northeast. You're right that he can't stay healthy, he hasn't finished last two seasons. Elbow inj is a concern.

 

[BPF]

Please, everyone, stop comparing Ricky Stanzi (or any other college QBs, for that matter) to Tom Brady. Brady played well in bowl games, and in the fourth quarter, in his college career. Not a single quarterback I have seen since has the amount of pitbull in him that #12 does.

I know that Stanzi won his 3 bowl games, including one over Blaine Gabbert (who I think is insanely overrated). He did not play well at all against Missouri in that game, and the entire season was a letdown for Iowa fans, who saw themselves as a dark horse national title contender only to lose their last 3 Big Ten games, including to an appallingly bad Minnesota team. His Orange Bowl victory in 2010 was solid but not overly impressive.

Stanzi may turn out to be a solid starter (I have my doubts and see him as a solid backup), but he will never remind anyone of Brady other than size and college conference. I do not see the upside. I think he has a high floor, but a pretty low ceiling. Make no mistake, I do like the idea of taking a pro-style, veteran QB who can make accurate decisions with the football, but Stanzi seems to be rising to a point where it would be a stupid move to take him anyway for the Pats. Why not just wait a few rounds and take Greg McElroy? Or go after Scott Tolzien or Ben Chappell in the 7th/UDFA portion?

A lot of people are getting worked up over taking a guy that, if the "experts" are all right, is rising up to the point where it would be a huge mistake to take him. Missing just a few key pieces to a 14-2 team, do we really want Bill to take a potential QB of the future in round 2 or 3? I ABSOLUTELY do not, and I do not understand why anyone would. Kevin O'Connell he may not be, but Belichick has shown a very good ability to get QBs really late that turn into solid players. I see no need to use a top 100 asset on a player who, ideally, would NEVER see the field for at least 5 years. I want the Pats to win multiple championships over the next few years, and that means I want players who will see the field.

Chappell is not an NFL QB, at best he's 3rd string material. He played in an offense where his reads were predetermined and he does not know how to read college defenses nevermind NFL defenses. Weak arm and stares down first option. Like Dalton his numbers are inflated due to shotgun based offense.

Tolzien although tough is a small, weak armed QB with no feel for the rush. Got to give it to him though unlike Chappell he's a winner, he's tough and a big time leader.

 

[BPF]

Box, a man as esteemed as you (especially among my fellow draftniks) deserves a response. I actually did answer you before, see post 24. I am reposting what I said, editing out the anti-Stanzi parts, and adding a little new flava:

Weber was a very unpopular player here in MN, but he also had at least 3 offensive coordinators, and each time they were changing the system. I think he is a good athlete with a solid arm, and he did start for 4 years. I would take a look at him as a UDFA, although he has displayed questionable accuracy.

New commentary:

Weber would be worth a flier, but you have to understand he has never really been an accurate quarterback. In my opinion, Ben Chappell is the under the radar Big Ten quarterback worth taking a flier on. Good size, good accuracy, terrible team that kept him under the radar.

Weber is too small at 6-1 211, he looks too slight. Forces too many throws, doesn't seem to have a sense of timing with WRs and hangs them out to dry on lots of throws. To top it all off always seems worse when it really counts. Maybe he can play in the UFL. You're comparing free agent types to a much better prospect in Stanzi. I think what some are thinking is you can't make all these picks the Pats have on players and expect them all to play, it may be worth while to start thinking about 4-5 yrs down the line and grooming a player like Stanzi who seems to have tools like size, pocket awareness, quick delivery, good footwork that can make him a solid starter. He's also passionate about the game and winning and is a great leader. If the opportunity presents itself in the late 2nd or early 3rd I'd pick this kid. Aaron Rodgers is a great example of why it's good to pick QB's even if you have a great starter. A lot of people we're asking why the Packers picked Rodgers in the 1st Rd that year. The best time to groom a QB is when you have one not when you need one.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Weber is too small at 6-1 211, he looks too slight. Forces too many throws, doesn't seem to have a sense of timing with WRs and hangs them out to dry on lots of throws. To top it all off always seems worse when it really counts. Maybe he can play in the UFL. You're comparing free agent types to a much better prospect in Stanzi. I think what some are thinking is you can't make all these picks the Pats have on players and expect them all to play, it may be worth while to start thinking about 4-5 yrs down the line and grooming a player like Stanzi who seems to have tools like size, pocket awareness, quick delivery, good footwork that can make him a solid starter. He's also passionate about the game and winning and is a great leader. If the opportunity presents itself in the late 2nd or early 3rd I'd pick this kid. Aaron Rodgers is a great example of why it's good to pick QB's even if you have a great starter. A lot of people we're asking why the Packers picked Rodgers in the 1st Rd that year. The best time to groom a QB is when you have one not when you need one.

Read what I wrote. I was responding to Box's question about whether Weber would be worth a look as an undrafted free agent, NOT comparing him to Ricky Stanzi. I am not a Weber fan at all, but he has some skills, some experience, and there have been worse Gopher QBs that I have seen stick in the league for years to my dismay. My whole point on Stanzi is I do not see a guy who is a surefire future starter in the league, so using a late 2nd or early 3rd on him would make me very perplexed. Remember, those picks can be used to trade up, trade down, or trade into the future, where we could draft a better QB prospect than Ricky Stanzi.

Also, after accusing me of directly comparing Weber and Stanzi (which I did not, and if you read through some of my other posts on this topic I actually advocate a number of other Big Ten QBs late than Weber), did you really then go ahead and make a vague Aaron Rodgers comparison to Stanzi? Honestly, I have never been more confused about a draft prospect and the love affair some have with him than this year's Patsfans-Stanzi affair. This would be a bad draft value for the Pats anywhere before round 4.

Also, I think a lot of guys are "passionate about the game and winning." This passion is fantastic, but it certainly did not help Iowa

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Chappell is not an NFL QB, at best he's 3rd string material. He played in an offense where his reads were predetermined and he does not know how to read college defenses nevermind NFL defenses. Weak arm and stares down first option. Like Dalton his numbers are inflated due to shotgun based offense.

Tolzien although tough is a small, weak armed QB with no feel for the rush. Got to give it to him though unlike Chappell he's a winner, he's tough and a big time leader.

Do you think maybe Tolzien being a "winner" had to do with playing on a significantly more talented team than Chappell? Look at John Elway's collegiate W-L record, I think that guy showed he was a winner.

And before anyone starts piling on me about "did you just compare John Elway to Ben Chappell", I did not. I just think that criticism of Chappell is unfair, although I do think the other criticisms are just and sound.

Box asked me about guys that would be developmental, 3rd string type QBs from the Big Ten. While I am not as big a Stanzi fan as some others in this thread, I certainly do not see him as being a worse prospect than Chappell, Tolzien, or Weber. For me it comes down to value, and I do not see the value in taking a guy who will be our 3rd string QB for the near future in the late 2nd/early 3rd. Are there a lot of people on here convinced that right now, today, Stanzi is better than Brian Hoyer? He wouldn't dress for at least 2 seasons the way things stand right now. The Pats have proven themselves VERY adept at taking QBs very late, or undrafted, and finding solid guys for the role. This is why I choose to focus my attention on those types of prospects, rather than the Stanzis of the world that we will likely not be in the market for anyway.

 

[BPF]

Do you think maybe Tolzien being a "winner" had to do with playing on a significantly more talented team than Chappell? Look at John Elway's collegiate W-L record, I think that guy showed he was a winner.

And before anyone starts piling on me about "did you just compare John Elway to Ben Chappell", I did not. I just think that criticism of Chappell is unfair, although I do think the other criticisms are just and sound.

Box asked me about guys that would be developmental, 3rd string type QBs from the Big Ten. While I am not as big a Stanzi fan as some others in this thread, I certainly do not see him as being a worse prospect than Chappell, Tolzien, or Weber. For me it comes down to value, and I do not see the value in taking a guy who will be our 3rd string QB for the near future in the late 2nd/early 3rd. Are there a lot of people on here convinced that right now, today, Stanzi is better than Brian Hoyer? He wouldn't dress for at least 2 seasons the way things stand right now. The Pats have proven themselves VERY adept at taking QBs very late, or undrafted, and finding solid guys for the role. This is why I choose to focus my attention on those types of prospects, rather than the Stanzis of the world that we will likely not be in the market for anyway.

This is what I'd like to emphasize regarding what I wrote: "...what some are thinking is you can't make all these picks the Pats have on players and expect them all to play, it may be worth while to start thinking about 4-5 yrs down the line and grooming a player like Stanzi who seems to have tools like size, pocket awareness, quick delivery, good footwork that can make him a solid starter. He's also passionate about the game and winning and is a great leader. If the opportunity presents itself in the late 2nd or early 3rd I'd pick this kid...."

How do you know Stanzi wouldn't dress for two seasons? The Pats could trade Hoyer, there certainly are a lot of teams looking for QBs. Yes the Pats developed Brady and Cassel but a lot of that is a testament to the players. Finding hidden gems like Brady and Cassel, especially Brady is obviously a very fortunate situation that is based largely on luck. You can't go into a draft expecting to simply pick a QB in the 6th or 7th Rd or an UDFA and expect them to become a player. I view picking Stanzi this year as an opportunity to pick a player that's under the radar due to a big QB crop and a deep "middle-class" this draft.

Stanzi's record at Iowa was 26-9. Iowa as a team was not as good this past year as in 2009. Here are some of the players he played with that are coming out in this class and where you can expect them to be drafted:

TE Allen Reisner, 7th Rd UDFA
FB Brett Morse, UDFA
WR Darrell Johnson-Koulianos 7th Round- UDFA *Obviously downgraded due to legal troubles but not a game breaker by any stretch.
OG Julian Vandervelde, UDFA

Soph Adam Robinson led the team in rushing with a 941 yds (4.6 avg). Frsh Marcus Coker was 2nd leading rusher with 622 yds but he didn't play at the beginning of the year and Robinson didn't play at the end of the year. Marvin McNutt led the team in receiving yds with 861 -- he had shoulder injury last yr. Stanzi himself played with a srained left ankle that lingered all season, happened in 1st game vs Eastern Ill.


Tony Moeaki, TE was a good player for him from last year's draft.

You mentioned previously that Stanzi doesn't play well in big games. In 2010 he had three big games in the Big 10, ultra critical that he perform in these games (for NFL purposes) because these teams have "the book" on him. He played Wisconsin (11-2 record), Michigan State (11-2) and Ohio State (12-1).

Here are his stats:
7 passing TDs and NO Ints, 67.4%, 214 passing yds avg

Also played Arizona, coached by defensive guru Mike Stoops. Arizona only allowed two QBs to throw for 3+ TDs in a game against them in 2010 season, Stanzi was one of those players. This game was one of his better games because it was an extremely tough game, vs a very tough AZ team which was 3-0 entering the game. Very hostile environment and Iowa was down 14-0 like 5 mins in so AZ's great pressure team could pin their ears back. Iowa's leading rusher in the game was Soph Jewel Hampton with 30 yds (played in 2 games all year). Robinson had 5 yds on 10 carries. McNutt let a ball slip through his hands which AZ took back 85 yds for defensive TD. Very next drive Stanzi directs Iowa for a 93-yd scoring drive. Iowa lost the game in OT 34-27 after PK missed extra pt right after they scored to tie the game 27-27 at the end of the game. Stanzi faced big time pressure in this game and he got beat up, AZ sacked him six times but he showed toughness and played well.

 

[MDHQ]

I really like Stanzi. Played under center. Not easily rattled. His only problem is that he doesnt have the most velocity on the ball. But hey, that can be fixed

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

This is what I'd like to emphasize regarding what I wrote: "...what some are thinking is you can't make all these picks the Pats have on players and expect them all to play, it may be worth while to start thinking about 4-5 yrs down the line and grooming a player like Stanzi who seems to have tools like size, pocket awareness, quick delivery, good footwork that can make him a solid starter. He's also passionate about the game and winning and is a great leader. If the opportunity presents itself in the late 2nd or early 3rd I'd pick this kid...."

How do you know Stanzi wouldn't dress for two seasons? The Pats could trade Hoyer, there certainly are a lot of teams looking for QBs. Yes the Pats developed Brady and Cassel but a lot of that is a testament to the players. Finding hidden gems like Brady and Cassel, especially Brady is obviously a very fortunate situation that is based largely on luck. You can't go into a draft expecting to simply pick a QB in the 6th or 7th Rd or an UDFA and expect them to become a player. I view picking Stanzi this year as an opportunity to pick a player that's under the radar due to a big QB crop and a deep "middle-class" this draft.

Stanzi's record at Iowa was 26-9. Iowa as a team was not as good this past year as in 2009. Here are some of the players he played with that are coming out in this class and where you can expect them to be drafted:

TE Allen Reisner, 7th Rd UDFA
FB Brett Morse, UDFA
WR Darrell Johnson-Koulianos 7th Round- UDFA *Obviously downgraded due to legal troubles but not a game breaker by any stretch.
OG Julian Vandervelde, UDFA

Soph Adam Robinson led the team in rushing with a 941 yds (4.6 avg). Frsh Marcus Coker was 2nd leading rusher with 622 yds but he didn't play at the beginning of the year and Robinson didn't play at the end of the year. Marvin McNutt led the team in receiving yds with 861 -- he had shoulder injury last yr. Stanzi himself played with a srained left ankle that lingered all season, happened in 1st game vs Eastern Ill.


Tony Moeaki, TE was a good player for him from last year's draft.

You mentioned previously that Stanzi doesn't play well in big games. In 2010 he had three big games in the Big 10, ultra critical that he perform in these games (for NFL purposes) because these teams have "the book" on him. He played Wisconsin (11-2 record), Michigan State (11-2) and Ohio State (12-1).

Here are his stats:
7 passing TDs and NO Ints, 67.4%, 214 passing yds avg

Also played Arizona, coached by defensive guru Mike Stoops. Arizona only allowed two QBs to throw for 3+ TDs in a game against them in 2010 season, Stanzi was one of those players. This game was one of his better games because it was an extremely tough game, vs a very tough AZ team which was 3-0 entering the game. Very hostile environment and Iowa was down 14-0 like 5 mins in so AZ's great pressure team could pin their ears back. Iowa's leading rusher in the game was Soph Jewel Hampton with 30 yds (played in 2 games all year). Robinson had 5 yds on 10 carries. McNutt let a ball slip through his hands which AZ took back 85 yds for defensive TD. Very next drive Stanzi directs Iowa for a 93-yd scoring drive. Iowa lost the game in OT 34-27 after PK missed extra pt right after they scored to tie the game 27-27 at the end of the game. Stanzi faced big time pressure in this game and he got beat up, AZ sacked him six times but he showed toughness and played well.

This is an excellent post, BPF, and you state your case quite well. I would be fine with Stanzi in the 4th round and on; I do not see a 2nd round pick as being under the radar. Unfortunately, it is appearing he is going to go a lot higher than round 4 (although this is fortunate for him, better opportunity). He has shown improvement in his career; I would argue he had one good season, but his stats were impressive this past season. I am concerned with his 4th quarter stats, and some of the decision making I have seen in these situations, but his TD/INT is certainly nice, and he does have good size and a solid arm.

I have my doubts as to whether Stanzi is a starter in the NFL, but my main reason why I do not advocate the choice in the first 3 rounds is due to value. As to a few of your bolded points: do any of us honestly expect the Patriots to make all of those selections in the top 3 rounds? I do not. I think we will see trades, as we have every year under Coach Belichick; I could see them packaging and trading up, or trading into next year to hose teams as they are wont to do. As to whether or not I KNOW that he will not dress for two seasons, of course I do not. What I wrote was that he will not dress for two seasons as it stands now, with Hoyer as a solid, cost-controlled backup. On the issue of trading Hoyer, I think Pats fans overrate this possibility. Other than Hasselbeck, there is little precedent for trading a backup QB that has little to no meaningful game experience. Charlie Whitehurst comes to mind, but that experiment would seem to discourage teams from doing so. I am just not sure that the Pats would be able to get any more than a 5th round pick for Hoyer right now, and that does not seem to be good value for a guy who it would seem the Pats feel comfortable with in their system.

As to whether I expect the Pats to find a Cassel or a Brady in the 6th round and on, I do not. I was simply stating the fact that they have been very successful in finding QBs late (Hoyer included), while striking out big time on Kevin O'Connell in round 3. Does that mean that Stanzi would be KOC part two? There is no correlation whatsoever. If the Pats were to take Stanzi, I would instantly be a Stanzi fan. As of right now, I am lukewarm about his potential as an NFL starter, but I have tried to focus my posts on the notion that I simply do not see taking him in the first 3 rounds of the draft as good value. As much as it may be prudent to start thinking 4-5 years into the future for the QB position, we have the greatest QB of all time (in my opinion) on the roster RIGHT NOW, and we need to surround him with talent while he is in his prime. I want to see the team use the first 3 rounds to either secure more talent right now, or to secure more premium picks for next year, not to acquire a player whose primary value to this team would ideally be 4 to 5 years down the line (and really I think it's even furthur down the line, if we assume health for Number 12 and we assume that his desire to play for a long time is legitimate).

I would like to see the team focus on different areas than QB in this draft. I do not think those who covet Stanzi are fools, or do not know football. It simply does not jibe with my ideas of maximizing this draft, a draft for which the Pats are loaded for bear.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

What I wrote was that he will not dress for two seasons as it stands now, with Hoyer as a solid, cost-controlled backup. On the issue of trading Hoyer, I think Pats fans overrate this possibility. Other than Hasselbeck, there is little precedent for trading a backup QB that has little to no meaningful game experience. Charlie Whitehurst comes to mind, but that experiment would seem to discourage teams from doing so. I am just not sure that the Pats would be able to get any more than a 5th round pick for Hoyer right now, and that does not seem to be good value for a guy who it would seem the Pats feel comfortable with in their system.

Barring a miracle, Hoyer will not be traded before the draft anyways. In any case, he's an RFA next year, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. And that fact alone might motivate the Pats to get someone in now (in the late rounds) to coach up to take his place as Brady's backup.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Barring a miracle, Hoyer will not be traded before the draft anyways. In any case, he's an RFA next year, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. And that fact alone might motivate the Pats to get someone in now (in the late rounds) to coach up to take his place as Brady's backup.

Adam Froman

 

[BPF]

Adam Froman

He's a very impressive athlete: 6-4, 219, 31 1/2 inch vertical leap, 9-4 broad jump, 4.55 forty. Also registered a 4.08 short shuttle and a 6.6 L cone drill at his pro day.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

He's a very impressive athlete: 6-4, 219, 31 1/2 inch vertical leap, 9-4 broad jump, 4.55 forty. Also registered a 4.08 short shuttle and a 6.6 L cone drill at his pro day.

He won as a running QB in junior college, and he did pretty good learning to be a passing QB at Louisville. Watching him in games reminded me of Matt Cassel with his athleticism. Near prototype size and athleticism, but raw with apparent potential, a reasonable option for sitting behind Brady and Hoyer. Though Potts out of Texas Tech is apparently in the running for the job too.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

He won as a running QB in junior college, and he did pretty good learning to be a passing QB at Louisville. Watching him in games reminded me of Matt Cassel with his athleticism. Near prototype size and athleticism, but raw with apparent potential, a reasonable option for sitting behind Brady and Hoyer. Though Potts out of Texas Tech is apparently in the running for the job too.

Box and BPF, any opinions on Yates from UNC? I only saw a few of his games, but he seemed gutty and accurate, and he was a four year starter. Not sure he has a big enough arm, wondering if either of you have seen much of him and have an opinion.

I didn't see Louisville play this year, but the times I have seen Potts he appears to be an accurate QB.