Semi-OT: Greg Cosell - NFL Films - Hammers Ravens receivers

[everlong]

These criticisms are all valid. It disgusts me, because Flacco would be producing with the best in the league if he got any help whatsoever.

While I don't subscribe to him producing at an elite level a Ravens fan on a general NFL board I frequent who isn't a complete homer made a really good case and comparison with Drew Brees and his time spent under Cam Cameron in San Diego. If you gave him a decent receiving core and a decent OC I believe he would be better but not in the class of Brady or Rogers. At least not at this time. Eli is a better QB now than I ever thought he would be and Alex Smith has shown a pulse under better coaching so who knows.

I will however counter that with this. Every team with with an under performing QB the fan base blasts the OC and to a lesser extent the receivers. Steelers fans all blame Bruce Ariens because it cannot possibly be Ben, etc.

 

[Tunescribe]

What is it about Flacco that makes people defend him so vehemently?

It's the same reason they put all the blame on the offensive coordinator: because admitting Flacco can't get the job done is the same as admitting they're screwed. Same syndrome in play down in Jersey with the Schottenheimer/Sanchez argument.

 

[robbomango]

Oh, well since a Pats fan says so about another teams QB because he claims to watch our games too, it must be true.

Stop listening to Jamie Dukes.

I've seen a handful of games, Dues is in every gameday thread watching and posting updates. I'm guessing he's watched over 50% of the Ravs games, maybe all who knows.

 

[Kid~Brady]

All of the going back and forth about Brady and Flacco is unwarranted.

Flacco should be compared to Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan and Tavaris Jackson.

 

[i82much]

There is a little bit of truth to everything that is being said here. First, keep in mind that the video we watch really doesn't show us a whole lot about whether receivers are open downfield. There are times when Flacco is looking downfield, does nothing, throws the ball away or takes a sack and that looks bad. Sometimes that's on him - that's what Reed is driving at. On the other hand, guys like Phil Simms are saying Flacco played a heck of a game against Houston. Hard to know without looking at tape and knowing exactly what you are looking for.

Just keep in mind when you watch Flacco, especially in a game like the Houston game, he is being asked to play things very close to the vest. The number one rule is don't throw a pick. Lots of routes designed for Flacco to throw the ball where only the receiver can get it. Not a lot of throws into tight windows. When he *does* need to step up and put points on the board, he has been pretty successful.

So a lot of it goes into organizational philosophy too. We've won ugly a lot. Don't turn the ball over, got a good punter, put the defense on the field, win the field position game and win another 17-13 game or whatever.

On top of that, though, you do have to look at his inconsistency, some really bad numbers in playoff games, the loss to Jacksonville, and ask yourself whether the guy is the real deal. Truth is, it sometimes takes a long time for an NFL QB to reach the top of their game, and until they do people are always going to argue back and forth about whether a guy is going to be any good.

At the end of the day, the guy put up 3600 yards, only threw 12 interceptions, won 12 games and did put up some big drives when we needed them. For a Ravens fan, my goodness. Compared to Boller, Grbac, Tony Banks???? So there's another reason you'll see us defend him.

FWIW I don't have any idea how Flacco would do in another offense. I expect his numbers would be bigger but whether he'd start throwing too many picks in a more aggressive scheme is really the big question.

 

[Fixit]

Did Brady have the garbage OL that we have suffered through the last couple years? Did his recievers rank near the top of the league in drops? Did he have a braindead monkey designing the offense and calling the plays?....ah forget it.

1) I believe Wes Welker (of all people) led the league in drops last year.

2) You made a point about the Ravens running a lot; they ran it a grand total of 21 times more than NE.

3) For fun, I looked at the dropoff in production for Evans and Boldin as soon as they got to Baltimore. I'm sure that's coincidental.

 

[condon84]

These criticisms are all valid. It disgusts me, because Flacco would be producing with the best in the league if he got any help whatsoever.

I think it's indicative of the criticisms that Flacco can't read defenses. So they make the offense as simple as possible. Two receivers on one side probably hurts Flacco's head. Three? His head would explode.

 

[Fixit]

Here's why I find it silly to blame the OC (pay attention, Jets fans):

1) The OC knows his QB better than anyone else.

2) The OC will maximize his QB's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

3) The OC's job is dependent on winning games.

Why on Earth would an OC try to limit his own QB if he knows the QB is capable of much more?

 

[flynismo]

What is it about Flacco that makes people defend him so vehemently?

He catches far more heat and criticism that he deserves.

Like the Texans game. He played quite well all things considered (how many times did 2 - 3 men crash through our OL at once?), but people just point to the 14 - 27 on pass attempts and say "Meh". Without those 5 drops, he is 19 - 27 with between 250 - 300 yards, 2 TD and 0 INT against a defense that rivals our own.

I mean when he plays great, like both those Steelers games for example, he gets absolutely ZERO credit. Any other QB manhandles the Steelers like that, or comes up with a last minute, game winning drive against them, you wont hear the end of it.

Then to top it all off, when he laughs about these things with the media, you have a bunch of ignorant people who call him a whiner.

The guy just cant win no matter what he does...

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

When watching Ravens games....Flacco deep down the middle ...incomplete...over and over

This is actually one of the things that I think really favors our defense. Everyone's talking solely about the Ravens D and the Patriots O, when I think the game will hinge on the other match-up Raven O and the Patriots D.

I think our D matches up well on Flacco in the passing game (and they will have to pass in this game). Ray Rice will have his touch, but he won't be able to carry the offense alone.

Our offense have feasted on QBs that have go into the "chuck the ball downfield" mode (either by playing catch up or because their QB get hurried). We have 23 Int's this year (3rd in the NFL), most of them on medium to long routes coupled with an inaccurate pass.

Flacco throws many of those balls and has been less accurate this year than in years past (57% vs. 63% or so). If he has a 2 pick game and gives Brady a few "extra" possessions figure out your defense...... This game will get out of hand for the Ravens in the second half.

 

[Ivan]

Did Brady have the garbage OL that we have suffered through the last couple years? Did his recievers rank near the top of the league in drops? Did he have a braindead monkey designing the offense and calling the plays?....ah forget it.

No no no, don't stop, you were just getting warmed up.

 

[Ivan]

The guy just cant win no matter what he does...

We've noticed, although he was there the one time the Ravens beat the Patriots.

 

[Gumby]

this is what cosell said back in nov when Ravens were about to play 49ers

Q: How dangerous is Joe Flacco?
COSELL: Another quarterback who’s a little week-to-week, but highly skilled and elite arm talent. Can make all the throws, both short, medium and long and the ball comes out with velocity. I hate to say this, it’s such a cliché but it’s true – on any given week he can make “wow” throws. He can stretch the field, so you have to be prepared for Flacco and Torrey Smith, as I mentioned a moment ago.
Q: The Ravens have lost some games to some weak opponents. Are they a team that isn’t as strong as their record would indicate?
COSELL: When the inconsistencies become consistent, then you are a flawed team, and I think they are right now. I can only tell you what the film shows, I can’t speak to why they’re inconsistent. When I watch Joe Flacco there are weeks when he throws the ball extremely well, makes great decisions, ball comes out quick, all the good things you talk about with quarterbacks, and there’s other weeks when the decision making is slow, holds the ball too long, there’s inaccuracy. I can’t tell you why that is, I can only tell you that’s what the film shows.

So he says he was inconsistent back then.

I am confident you can NOT put it on the WRs. The QB has to bear some if not most of the blame. Part of accuracy is putting the ball not just NEAR THE RECEIVER; but putting in position for him to make a move or not have to play DB to prevent an INT.

As someone else mentioned just look at their prior and post Ravens acquisition production:

Boldin:
Az Card: 7 years: AVG COMP: 84 AVG YDS 1074
Ravens: 2 years: AVG Comp: 60.5 AVG YDS: 862

Evans:
Jills: 7 years: AVG Comp: 37 AVG Yds: 578
Ravens: 1 year: AVG Comp: 4 AVG Yds: 74

You can't tell me that isn't the QB. Saints talent isnt' going to fix that.

Granted the OC maybe causing some of that by play design; but if the OC were really that bad and Flacco that good; he would be audibling out to good plays.

If he hasn't earned that right (or taken it) [to audible] then he doesn't have the skills.

 

[RodThePat]

We've noticed, although he was there the one time the Ravens beat the Patriots.

"He was there" is the correct term. He had about as much to do with that win than our resident Ravens trolls did. Yes, I know he was badly hurt, no need to get your panties in a bunch, it's a joke.

 

[RavensFanHere]

Here's why I find it silly to blame the OC (pay attention, Jets fans):

1) The OC knows his QB better than anyone else.

2) The OC will maximize his QB's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

3) The OC's job is dependent on winning games.

Why on Earth would an OC try to limit his own QB if he knows the QB is capable of much more?

If you followed the Ravens in any capacity, it would be more than obvious that Cam Cameron is overly conservative and stubborn. Before it was just something acknowledged among Ravens fans, now it's pretty much a national issue. Hell just google "Cam Cameron" or look on his wikipedia page, there is nothing positive being said about the man right now. For a guy who's coaching a team that went 12-4 and is in the AFC championship, that is very telling.

Even a couple weeks ago Flacco said himself, jokingly but not really, that Cameron should take the cuffs off him and stop being so conservative.

Cam has his moments though, and in those moments Flacco has looked plenty capable. IE the gamewinning drive against the Steelers in Pittsburgh, where Cameron (he hit his head on something, I'm pretty sure) let Flacco go no huddle and control the offense for once and he took the Ravens 92 yards for a GW touchdown:

Ravens (Joe Flacco) game-winning drive to sweep the Steelers - YouTube

I have no interest in claiming Flacco as an elite QB, but if you don't think he can be a solid QB in the league you just don't know how to evaluate a football player. Flacco has looked better than Eli Manning did through their first 4 seasons, and Manning is now an elite quarterback. So I'm going to hold off final judgment on Joe until we get a new OC.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Did Brady have the garbage OL that we have suffered through the last couple years? Did his recievers rank near the top of the league in drops? Did he have a braindead monkey designing the offense and calling the plays?....ah forget it.

 

[Fixit]

If you followed the Ravens in any capacity, it would be more than obvious that Cam Cameron is overly conservative and stubborn. Before it was just something acknowledged among Ravens fans, now it's pretty much a national issue. Hell just google "Cam Cameron" or look on his wikipedia page, there is nothing positive being said about the man right now. For a guy who's coaching a team that went 12-4 and is in the AFC championship, that is very telling.

Even a couple weeks ago Flacco said himself, jokingly but not really, that Cameron should take the cuffs off him and stop being so conservative.

Cam has his moments though, and in those moments Flacco has looked plenty capable. IE the gamewinning drive against the Steelers in Pittsburgh, where Cameron (he hit his head on something, I'm pretty sure) let Flacco go no huddle and control the offense for once and he took the Ravens 92 yards for a GW touchdown:

Ravens (Joe Flacco) game-winning drive to sweep the Steelers - YouTube

I have no interest in claiming Flacco as an elite QB, but if you don't think he can be a solid QB in the league you just don't know how to evaluate a football player. Flacco has looked better than Eli Manning did through their first 4 seasons, and Manning is now an elite quarterback. So I'm going to hold off final judgment on Joe until we get a new OC.

That's all well and good. I just don't want you to get your hopes up.

For the record, Pats fans have found reason to kill every OC of the last decade, including the OC on three SB-winning teams and the OC on the best offense of all-time.

 

[SVN]

Even bedard and yesterday hines ward said that ravens passing game has mostly deep routes and bedard thinks bb can take it away if thats the one they do. They dont have the short passing game(yet) like the steelers had and it really hurt us.

 

[alvinnf]

wow imagine if they were creative.

14 game Boldin and the Rookie Smith would have had 1,300 yard seasons instead of paltry 800 yard seasons playing 12 games against teams with top 10 defenses.

As for Ray Rice and the most productive tight-end duo second only to the Patriots.. they could have all gone to the pro-bowl if but for some ability to execute more complex formations..

Great point, I like Pitta and ****son two complimentary TE's. I have heard people say that Balt does'nt use the middle of the field that well in the passing game. Do you think this is a scheme thing or Qb. Certainly the throws outside the numbers are tough and Flacco has really done a nice job with them using the sideline to protect the ball. Could this be the week that Balt wants to attack the middle with those TE's?

 

[SVN]

If you followed the Ravens in any capacity, it would be more than obvious that Cam Cameron is overly conservative and stubborn. Before it was just something acknowledged among Ravens fans, now it's pretty much a national issue. Hell just google "Cam Cameron" or look on his wikipedia page, there is nothing positive being said about the man right now. For a guy who's coaching a team that went 12-4 and is in the AFC championship, that is very telling.

Even a couple weeks ago Flacco said himself, jokingly but not really, that Cameron should take the cuffs off him and stop being so conservative.

Cam has his moments though, and in those moments Flacco has looked plenty capable. IE the gamewinning drive against the Steelers in Pittsburgh, where Cameron (he hit his head on something, I'm pretty sure) let Flacco go no huddle and control the offense for once and he took the Ravens 92 yards for a GW touchdown:

Ravens (Joe Flacco) game-winning drive to sweep the Steelers - YouTube

I have no interest in claiming Flacco as an elite QB, but if you don't think he can be a solid QB in the league you just don't know how to evaluate a football player. Flacco has looked better than Eli Manning did through their first 4 seasons, and Manning is now an elite quarterback. So I'm going to hold off final judgment on Joe until we get a new OC.

if ravens come out no huddle ,5 wide and spread the pats out it will be something the pats will have to adjust from their original plans and will be an tough challenge. Question is if Cam will do it...