Semi-OT: Greg Cosell - NFL Films - Hammers Ravens receivers

[alvinnf]

If you followed the Ravens in any capacity, it would be more than obvious that Cam Cameron is overly conservative and stubborn. Before it was just something acknowledged among Ravens fans, now it's pretty much a national issue. Hell just google "Cam Cameron" or look on his wikipedia page, there is nothing positive being said about the man right now. For a guy who's coaching a team that went 12-4 and is in the AFC championship, that is very telling.

Even a couple weeks ago Flacco said himself, jokingly but not really, that Cameron should take the cuffs off him and stop being so conservative.

Cam has his moments though, and in those moments Flacco has looked plenty capable. IE the gamewinning drive against the Steelers in Pittsburgh, where Cameron (he hit his head on something, I'm pretty sure) let Flacco go no huddle and control the offense for once and he took the Ravens 92 yards for a GW touchdown:

Ravens (Joe Flacco) game-winning drive to sweep the Steelers - YouTube

I have no interest in claiming Flacco as an elite QB, but if you don't think he can be a solid QB in the league you just don't know how to evaluate a football player. Flacco has looked better than Eli Manning did through their first 4 seasons, and Manning is now an elite quarterback. So I'm going to hold off final judgment on Joe until we get a new OC.

If ever there was a game to throw caution to the wind and defy convention this would be it you would think. I'm hoping they stay true to form and just grind it, but I don't know. I have a sneaky suspicion we're all gonna see a different more aggressive approach from Balt, right from the start.

 

[RavensFanHere]

That's all well and good. I just don't want you to get your hopes up.

For the record, Pats fans have found reason to kill every OC of the last decade, including the OC on three SB-winning teams and the OC on the best offense of all-time.

Well, all I know is Flacco is our QB and Cam will be the OC on Sunday and they DO have it in them to win that game. That's all that matters to us atm

if ravens come out no huddle ,5 wide and spread the pats out it will be something the pats will have to adjust from their original plans and will be an tough challenge. Question is if Cam will do it...

Honestly, he won't. We're just gonna line it up and run at you guys. When we do pass it will be out of the 2WR set, most likely Cam's usual low percentage routes along the sidelines.

If Pats do their film work it won't be hard to know what the Ravens are going to do passing-wise. Where the problem lies is in their ability to pound the ball and wear down a defense.. that makes playaction, etc a lot more effective.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Overly conservative and stubborn, the battle cry of the frustrated fan whose team loses. Or sometimes even if they win. You should have googled Charlie Weiss or Josh McDaniels or Bill O'Brien over the last decade. According to the internet they were a collection of stubborn egotistical and unimaginative if not incompetent bums as coordinators... It's always the coordinator because he's the easiest name to replace.

Teams who run simplictic schemes generally do so because they have simpleton QB's. Arm strength is so over rated... The Colts are the only team running a simple offense who had positive results and that was because they ran it based on the ability of the QB to make pre snap reads and calls out of no huddle and the ability of the QB and his receivers to execute consistently with precision. Which is why his backups had no shot at running it. Here a smart kid can fill in at least respectably and for the short term.

Flacco was challenged in college and ran away from Tyler Palko to a Div II school where he would look like a stud because he could make all the throws. He is still running away from or denying his critics rather than manning up and proving them wrong because that is who he is. Will he still flash at times due to his skillset, absolutely. But you will never be able to count on him to carry a team or elevate those around him. High floor, low ceiling.

 

[DaBruinz]

this is what cosell said back in nov when Ravens were about to play 49ers



So he says he was inconsistent back then.

I am confident you can NOT put it on the WRs. The QB has to bear some if not most of the blame. Part of accuracy is putting the ball not just NEAR THE RECEIVER; but putting in position for him to make a move or not have to play DB to prevent an INT.

As someone else mentioned just look at their prior and post Ravens acquisition production:

Boldin:
Az Card: 7 years: AVG COMP: 84 AVG YDS 1074
Ravens: 2 years: AVG Comp: 60.5 AVG YDS: 862

Evans:
Jills: 7 years: AVG Comp: 37 AVG Yds: 578
Ravens: 1 year: AVG Comp: 4 AVG Yds: 74

You can't tell me that isn't the QB. Saints talent isnt' going to fix that.

Granted the OC maybe causing some of that by play design; but if the OC were really that bad and Flacco that good; he would be audibling out to good plays.

If he hasn't earned that right (or taken it) [to audible] then he doesn't have the skills.

Just to be fair. I think that including Lee Evans in your comparison is dumb because it's well known that Evans was injured for almost the entire year.

 

[RavensFanHere]

Overly conservative and stubborn, the battle cry of the frustrated fan whose team loses. Or sometimes even if they win. You should have googled Charlie Weiss or Josh McDaniels or Bill O'Brien over the last decade. According to the internet they were a collection of stubborn egotistical and unimaginative if not incompetent bums as coordinators... It's always the coordinator because he's the easiest name to replace.

Teams who run simplictic schemes generally do so because they have simpleton QB's. Arm strength is so over rated... The Colts are the only team running a simple offense who had positive results and that was because they ran it based on the ability of the QB to make pre snap reads and calls out of no huddle and the ability of the QB and his receivers to execute consistently with precision. Which is why his backups had no shot at running it. Here a smart kid can fill in at least respectably and for the short term.

Flacco was challenged in college and ran away from Tyler Palko to a Div II school where he would look like a stud because he could make all the throws. He is still running away from or denying his critics rather than manning up and proving them wrong because that is who he is. Will he still flash at times due to his skillset, absolutely. But you will never be able to count on him to carry a team or elevate those around him. High floor, low ceiling.

cool story bro.. you clearly haven't read anything in the thread nor do you have an ounce of objectivity

 

[Fixit]

cool story bro.. you clearly haven't read anything in the thread nor do you have an ounce of objectivity

Ravens fans: Now there's an objective group. And they flock to an opposing team's boards to show off said objectivity.

 

[Shockt327]

I'm sorry ... You think Flacco would be putting up numbers like Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Stafford with "help?"

Am I being punk'd?

I don't think it's out of line to suggest Flacco could be on par with Stafford.

...but that's all.

 

[RodThePat]

I don't think it's out of line to suggest Flacco could be on par with Stafford.

...but that's all.

Matt Stafford threw for 40 TDs and 5000 yards as a 23 year old quarterback. Joe Flacco wishes he was 40% as talented as Stafford is.

 

[Fixit]

I don't think it's out of line to suggest Flacco could be on par with Stafford.

...but that's all.

5,000+ yards and 40+ TD? Maybe you thought I said "Bradford."

 

[Shockt327]

Matt Stafford threw for 40 TDs and 5000 yards as a 23 year old quarterback. Joe Flacco wishes he was 40% as talented as Stafford is.

Yes, I'm aware of what his stat sheet says...

But if you swapped Stafford and Flacco, you'd see Flacco put up some pretty big numbers too, especially with Megatron.

Again, Cam Cameron is a guy that made Drew Brees look like a flat out bust at worst (hence the selection of Rivers) and moderately talented at best. That's just inexcusable.

Flacco hasn't been consistently bad, or anything. Just too conservative. That's Cameron's M.O. That's the story wherever he goes.

 

[Deus Irae]

There is a little bit of truth to everything that is being said here. First, keep in mind that the video we watch really doesn't show us a whole lot about whether receivers are open downfield. There are times when Flacco is looking downfield, does nothing, throws the ball away or takes a sack and that looks bad. Sometimes that's on him - that's what Reed is driving at. On the other hand, guys like Phil Simms are saying Flacco played a heck of a game against Houston. Hard to know without looking at tape and knowing exactly what you are looking for.

Just keep in mind when you watch Flacco, especially in a game like the Houston game, he is being asked to play things very close to the vest. The number one rule is don't throw a pick. Lots of routes designed for Flacco to throw the ball where only the receiver can get it. Not a lot of throws into tight windows. When he *does* need to step up and put points on the board, he has been pretty successful.

So a lot of it goes into organizational philosophy too. We've won ugly a lot. Don't turn the ball over, got a good punter, put the defense on the field, win the field position game and win another 17-13 game or whatever.

On top of that, though, you do have to look at his inconsistency, some really bad numbers in playoff games, the loss to Jacksonville, and ask yourself whether the guy is the real deal. Truth is, it sometimes takes a long time for an NFL QB to reach the top of their game, and until they do people are always going to argue back and forth about whether a guy is going to be any good.

At the end of the day, the guy put up 3600 yards, only threw 12 interceptions, won 12 games and did put up some big drives when we needed them. For a Ravens fan, my goodness. Compared to Boller, Grbac, Tony Banks???? So there's another reason you'll see us defend him.

FWIW I don't have any idea how Flacco would do in another offense. I expect his numbers would be bigger but whether he'd start throwing too many picks in a more aggressive scheme is really the big question.

I've got no problem, at all, with a QB putting up lesser numbers because of his team playing a more smashmouth and/or conservative style of offense. The Patriots won 3 Super Bowls doing just that. And, for all the griping Ravens fans do about Cameron, the receivers and the O-line, the worst the Ravens have been is #16 in scoring (11, 9, 16, 12), which is pretty darned good for a conservative offense that largely plays to support the defense rather than to drive the team. I don't think Flacco's a terrible QB, either.

However, I do believe that Flacco's a #10-#20 QB who's had a down season this year, largely because of his own inconsistency. I think Flacco's capable of leading the Ravens to victory on Sunday, and I think Flacco's just as capable of melting down à la Mark Sanchez.

 

[Dessalines]

Wow. I admire your positive outlook.

This begs another question: What is it about Flacco that makes people defend him so vehemently?

It's the mustache.... Wait.... Uh,,,,, no..... Nevermind.

 

[i82much]

I've got no problem, at all, with a QB putting up lesser numbers because of his team playing a more smashmouth and/or conservative style of offense. The Patriots won 3 Super Bowls doing just that. And, for all the griping Ravens fans do about Cameron, the receivers and the O-line, the worst the Ravens have been is #16 in scoring (11, 9, 16, 12), which is pretty darned good for a conservative offense that largely plays to support the defense rather than to drive the team. I don't think Flacco's a terrible QB, either.

However, I do believe that Flacco's a #10-#20 QB who's had a down season this year, largely because of his own inconsistency. I think Flacco's capable of leading the Ravens to victory on Sunday, and I think Flacco's just as capable of melting down à la Mark Sanchez.

I don't really understand why people are certain that Flacco has a low ceiling. There are plenty of QB's that took years to begin putting up big numbers. Some of the big-number guys are at home right now watching Flacco this Sunday. I think it is really tough as a casual fan to sit back and know for sure whether a QB is doing what they are supposed to. Does Sanchez go 7-0 vs. playoff teams if he is the Ravens QB this year? Does Ryan? Do they make all those beautiful throws in the game-winning drive vs. Pittsburgh? Do they consistently avoid throwing interceptions that result in easy points for the other team?

Ultimately, we'll revisit this debate in 5 or 6 years. I really don't know what the results will be. But I do think there are a whole lot of mitigating factors that aren't being taken into account by the most vocal Flacco critics.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't really understand why people are certain that Flacco has a low ceiling.

I didn't discuss Flacco's ceiling.

There are plenty of QB's that took years to begin putting up big numbers.

Brady's numbers didn't really kick in until after 2004. Again, I've got no issues there.

Some of the big-number guys are at home right now watching Flacco this Sunday.

That's really not all that relevant. The only 2 surprises aren't all that surprising. The Saints were a different team on the road and were playing a team that had a better record than them. The Packers turned the ball over and dropped 6-8 passes.

I think it is really tough as a casual fan to sit back and know for sure whether a QB is doing what they are supposed to.

Outside of a wide receiver going out for a pass against man defense, the QB position is the easiest for people to figure out. Do they still miss things? Sure, but an observant person, especially one who has some ability to re-watch plays and games, can get a pretty good read on a QB over time.

Does Sanchez go 7-0 vs. playoff teams if he is the Ravens QB this year?

Sanchez is an overrated QB who's been carried by his defense. Do you really want him to be the comparison?

Does Ryan? Do they make all those beautiful throws in the game-winning drive vs. Pittsburgh?

Do they consistently avoid throwing interceptions that result in easy points for the other team?

Ryan had 12 picks this year and has 46 for his career. Flacco had 12 picks this year and has.... yep, 46 for his career.

Ultimately, we'll revisit this debate in 5 or 6 years. I really don't know what the results will be. But I do think there are a whole lot of mitigating factors that aren't being taken into account by the most vocal Flacco critics.

There's really not a debate here. What Flacco will be in 5 or 6 years is meaningless, and only what he'll be on Sunday is of any consequence right now. However, the mitigating factors argument is basically a load of crap.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yes, I'm aware of what his stat sheet says...

But if you swapped Stafford and Flacco, you'd see Flacco put up some pretty big numbers too, especially with Megatron.

Again, Cam Cameron is a guy that made Drew Brees look like a flat out bust at worst (hence the selection of Rivers) and moderately talented at best. That's just inexcusable.

Flacco hasn't been consistently bad, or anything. Just too conservative. That's Cameron's M.O. That's the story wherever he goes.

Actually Flacco has been consistently bad in the post season with one exception and that was against the mighty KC Chiefs under that wacko HC they just fired.

Baltimore Ravens: 3 things we (might) learn in AFC championship game | Cold Hard Football Facts

 

[i82much]

I didn't discuss Flacco's ceiling.


There's really not a debate here. What Flacco will be in 5 or 6 years is meaningless, and only what he'll be on Sunday is of any consequence right now. However, the mitigating factors argument is basically a load of crap.

Hey relax man. I said "people" not "you."

As far as the mitigating factors argument goes, I guess I'll just take my own counsel on that. Probably not much point in going down that road if your response is that it is a "load of crap."

And I think you brought up the Sanchize?

Re: Ryan, hey - the guy plays in a dome, and his numbers are really close to Flacco's.

Anyway, don't want to get into a p*ssing match. I have some fairly complimentary things to say about Flacco but I try to be realistic about things as well. If you want to discuss further, let's do so but please don't take anything the wrong way. It's harder to convey sarcasm/joking around in text and it can get out of hand fast.

 

[Deus Irae]

Hey relax man. I said "people" not "you."

You were quoting me. I was making it clear that I was not among those discussing Flacco's ceiling.

As far as the mitigating factors argument goes, I guess I'll just take my own counsel on that. Probably not much point in going down that road if your response is that it is a "load of crap."

1.) Flacco's had the same issues with multiple receiver groups.

2.) The Ravens O-line does the job in the running game and is much better against the pass than the Ravens fan base gives it credit for.

3.) Pretty much every team whines about its offensive coordinators. It's almost always a load of crap.

4.) Flacco's the beneficiary of a great defense and quality running game, without which teams would be able to focus much more intently on Flacco. That "mitigating factor" is somehow left out by his defenders.

 

[i82much]

You were quoting me. I was making it clear that I was not among those discussing Flacco's ceiling.



1.) Flacco's had the same issues with multiple receiver groups.

2.) The Ravens O-line does the job in the running game and is much better against the pass than the Ravens fan base gives it credit for.

3.) Pretty much every team whines about its offensive coordinators. It's almost always a load of crap.

4.) Flacco's the beneficiary of a great defense and quality running game, without which teams would be able to focus much more intently on Flacco. That "mitigating factor" is somehow left out by his defenders.

Sure. Those are perfectly reasonable counterarguments. Still, I look at Evans being hurt most of the year, Smith being a rookie, Boldin was hurt at one point as well. Second seed, AFC championship game, beat Pittsburgh twice (finally). So the team is moving in the right direction and I don't think that is in spite of Flacco. Could he have gotten better faster? Yes. Is he good enough to win Sunday? Yes.

 

[Deus Irae]

...And I think you brought up the Sanchize?

Only in the context of a potential meltdown. I think Flacco's a #10-#20 QB, and I think Sanchez is a bottom tier (#21-#32) QB.

There's no real need to get defensive with me about your team. I think it's a good team with some significant issues that might be exploitable this week, and I think there's a big question mark at QB.

I doubt very much that my position is much different than that of Ravens fans and analysts.

 

[i82much]

Only in the context of a potential meltdown. I think Flacco's a #10-#20 QB, and I think Sanchez is a bottom tier (#21-#32) QB.


I doubt very much that my position is much different than that of Ravens fans and analysts.

I think the first point is fair. Analysts tend to be all over the board on Flacco, Phil Simms has a crush on him at least. It's nice to hear positive comments from the national media, whether he's right or not.

Hey man. I'm an optimist. What can I say.