RFA Emmanuel Sanders visits Pats 3/16; signs offer sheet 4/10, sheet matched 4/14

[Kontradiction]

Actually, I think Sanders is going to be the slot and replace Welker's role. I think Amendola, Edelman, Jenkins, and Jones are the outside guys. I think the Pats have tried to bolster the outside receivers, just not in the way many people on this board wants (deep threat).

I have always stated deep threats are the most overrated thing in football. They are flashy toys unless you have an absolute stud like Fitzgerald. Outside threats are far more important especially in this offense. The Pats don't need a guy who can catch balls 30 yards down the field. They need a guy who is going to force coverage ot the outside and leave Gronk and Hernandez with mismatches over the middle. I think the Pats agree with me.

Whether the group of receivers they have now are the ones to achieve this goal is yet to be determined, but that looks to be the way the Pats are building this team.

One thing I will say about Sanders is that I feel he was not a great fit for the Steelers. He is a quick route runner who would benefit from a QB with a quick release. That ain't Roethlisberger. Brady is a far better QB for Sanders' skills. Whether it will make Sanders emerge as good or even great WR is yet to be seen, but he does have skills which haven't emerged in any consistency. A system change could be what he needs for them to emerge with consistency.

Some people want a deep threat. The majority of people want an upgrade. Amendola and Sanders will either man the slot or the split-end. That leaves a slow as sloth Michael Jenkins and Donald Jones to man the flanker. Surely the team can find an upgrade through the draft, regardless of whether or not the guy is a DeSean Jackson type of deep threat (who I don't want). Give me Hunter, Wheaton, or Woods and I'll wager that either one would be more productive than Jones or Jenkins.

 

[Patsgofor4]

Honestly, I hope the Steelers match. He's a decent receiver, but not worth a 3rd and a mildly big contract long term contract which is what I assume he and the Patriots have in a "wink wink" agreement.

The issue is not whether he has just been "decent" in the Steelers scheme but, rather, whether he projects to be much more than that in the Patriots offense. As others have mentioned, BB and co. may feel that he is a bad fit for the Pitt offense and QB or that he has been underutilized given his skill set, or maybe both. If BB and JMD, after watching hours of tape on Sanders, feel that he can be a WR2 in this always-evolving Pats' offense and give them more than Lloyd, I'm in 100%. I prefer Kool-Aid singles, Tropical Punch flavored.

 

[patfanken]

If bill wants sanders it should be an indication that the patriots

A. Like him alot

and

B. Don't think they can find something better in the draft.

Agreed, but I'd amend section B by adding ...."can't find something better in the draft....that will significantly contribute right away

In signing Emmanual Sanders to an offer sheet, the Patriots are admitting their weakness in identifying WR talent in the draft, particularly in the 3rd round.

Now this is just crap. This popular line of thinking is fast becoming one of my new pet peeves. I ask you this. For the past SIX seasons the Pats have had a top 5 passing attack in the league. That's SIX consecutive seasons. Tell me, who exactly has been catching all those passes all those years. If the Pats have been so bad picking WRs how did they get such a prolific passing attack....for so freakin' long

I think they believe Sanders has great potential in their system, at least for the role they need them in which is the quick and short pass game, the most important features of any receiver the Patriots will be looking at with be the ability to get open and the ability to produce YAC, As we all know, Brandon Lloyd was terrible at producing YAC because of his propensity to fall down immediately after catching the ball for fear of being hurt otherwise.

I think they look at Sanders as being Deion Branch 2.0, only slightly bigger, faster and a lot younger

I've said for years that Tom Brady's ability to deliver the deep ball has deteriorated for years now and that even if the Patriots had a 'burner' on the outside, he wouldn't be able to reliably complete a pass to them often enough to justify bringing in a big time big money WR, this isn't to say that Brady is terrible, only that he is much better at making decisions and reading defenses than anything else now and having big receivers with good hands and the ability to get open very quickly is a better asset for the Patriots than anything else, because if you get open, Brady can find you, but if you are open deep, he might not be able to reach you.

Well the fact is that Brady, except for one magical year, has NEVER been great at throwing the deep ball. Maybe its because he's so rarely had the kind of receivers or offense that throws a lot of deep balls, but who cares.

We have pretty much come to a consensus that throwing the "deep ball" is pretty much over rated, though having a "deep ball" threat helps, to some degree, the rest of the pass offense.

Throughout his career Brady was never a QB who would comfortably throw the ball to a receiver who hadn't gotten some degree of separation. He is NOT a "throw it up there and hope for the best" Joe Flacco. Flacco does throw a better "back shoulder" pass than Brady, but I wouldn't trade the rest of his arsenal for that one discrepancy.

Sanders has been in the league for years now, he knows what the pace of the game is already so that won't be a factor like it would if you brought in a WR from the draft.

Sanders will be going into his 4th year as a receiver. From what I've gathered he's improved his play every year coming from a division II program.

If the Patriots fail to acquire Sanders we'll probably be looking at bringing Lloyd back and hoping he doesn't blow up the locker room.

NOT gonna happen....ESPECIALLY if the Steelers don't match. Bank on it.

Not counting Slater, it is very possible that the Pats will only keep 4 true WR's on the roster this season. With 4 TE's a certainty, its going to be hard to justify carrying 10 receivers (counting Slater)

One thing for certain, by adding Amendola, Jones, Edelman (hopefully for a full season), and possibly Sanders, the Pats WR corps has gotten significantly faster than last year. How that additional speed will translate on to the field is the question that will be only answered during the season.

BTW - the Pats already have a true "deep threat" with that great catch radius you are looking for. His name is Rob Gronkowski. That last catch of the season proved that. It might have broken his arm, but there isn't a CB in the league who can match up to him physically with the ball in the air......when he's healthy.

 

[Patsgofor4]

I trust ex-Steelers' reporter John Clayton's sources much more than Ed Werder's, even if he does appear to be morphing into a gnome over time. (Although he does have one of the best ESPN commercials in recent memory too..."MA I'M DONE WITH MY SEGMENT!!!" lolz)

50/50 sounds about right. I am flip-flopping like crazy on this. My latest thought: everyone lauds Pitt for landing later-round gems at WR, but they forget the Limas Sweeds, Willie Reids and Fred Gibsons who busted out. Just one pick separated Brandon Tate from Mike Wallace in '09...so there's some luck involved, and who's to say that Pitt's recent WR luck won't run out?

I'm calling BS on this Clayton report. He may have good Pitt contacts but teams use reporters all the time to spin stories in public a certain way (especially reporters who any desperate for any type of inside info, like Clayton) . I think that Pitt knows exactly what they are going to do but just haven't made it official. How long have they known? At least since the week after Sanders visited Foxboro but probably as far back as the day that they tendered him at his original round level.

Pitt is too good an organization not to plan ahead in this case. They certainly weren't shocked that BB and co. finally made a formal offer. They don't have to go back to the film room on Sanders. They likely had/have every scenario mapped out - if the Pats (or some other team) offer him X years at Y salary, we will match but at Z years and W salary, we'll take the pick and the extra 3 years of player control.

I, for one, hope that they take the pick.

 

[patfanken]

I think people may have taken Kraft too literal. I think Amendola replaced Welker as the Pats' #1 WR, but not necessarily replacing Welker in the same exact role. The Pats were only going to pay a WR the money Amendola got, but that doesn't mean they were going to use the receivers in same way.

I think the mistake that we as fans are making is being so rigid in our applying strict "roles" to these receivers. I think the whole purpose of the "revamping" of the offense. The new urgency to spread the ball around more, is to eliminate strict roles for the receivers. In other words, there won't be just one guy who goes deep. There won't be just one guy who runs option routes over the middle, etc. I think the goal is that, regardless of who is out there on any given play, there will be at least 4 receivers who have the potential to hit every area of the field.

 

[Ring 6]

I think the mistake that we as fans are making is being so rigid in our applying strict "roles" to these receivers. I think the whole purpose of the "revamping" of the offense. The new urgency to spread the ball around more, is to eliminate strict roles for the receivers. In other words, there won't be just one guy who goes deep. There won't be just one guy who runs option routes over the middle, etc. I think the goal is that, regardless of who is out there on any given play, there will be at least 4 receivers who have the potential to hit every area of the field.

Agree. BB has always talked about moving forward and not comparing a team or position group to past years.
Welker was unique and the offense evolved to take advantage of that. Teams defensed us differently because of him, our play design and calls revolved around his route because he was most likely to be open, and because defenses focussed on where he was and what he was doing.
Just as no one took the unique role of Randy Moss, no one will take the unique role of Welker. The offense will change. Yes Amendola shares some of Welkers skills so elements will transfer but there is little question the passing game is changing into one that fits the players we have not players we used to have.

 

[Ring 6]

We'll learn Sunday whether Sanders is a terrible player (if PITT matches) or the a potential 2013 pro-bowl starters (if PITT chooses not to match).

Or we could give an opinion today.
Mine: He will do better here that he did in Pitt, but is not a probowl player. I would put him in the 50-60 catch range (more depending on health of the top 3), but I expect him to get impressive yards after the catch.

 

[strngplyr]

Or we could give an opinion today.
Mine: He will do better here that he did in Pitt, but is not a probowl player. I would put him in the 50-60 catch range (more depending on health of the top 3), but I expect him to get impressive yards after the catch.

Agree, was watching a lot of his highlights earlier today and the one thing that stood out was his YAC potential, he looks a lot more explosive after the catch than anyone I've seen in our offense in awhile, he continually took 3-4 yard passes for 15+.

He was also money on 3rd down, several of his highlights (and while I understand they are highlights, and not EVERY play) were 3rd and 10 or longer.

 

[Metaphors]

I think the mistake that we as fans are making is being so rigid in our applying strict "roles" to these receivers. I think the whole purpose of the "revamping" of the offense. The new urgency to spread the ball around more, is to eliminate strict roles for the receivers. In other words, there won't be just one guy who goes deep. There won't be just one guy who runs option routes over the middle, etc. I think the goal is that, regardless of who is out there on any given play, there will be at least 4 receivers who have the potential to hit every area of the field.

I think that is correct to a point. I think the Pats do have specific roles in mind for both offense and defense, but these roles can change from year to year. It takes a lot to move people from assuming roles they are familiar with. How many years were people talking about the "Ted Johnson" role on defense?

As to your assessment of this year, I think you are definitely on the right track. In 2007, the WRs were dynamic enough that they couldn't be covered even through their roles and "attack areas" on the field were fairly well defined. The potential contingent this year (DA, Sanders, Jones, Edelperson) are much more homogeneous...5'10" to 6'0", 185-205, 25-27 yo, functional speed, good quickness, hands catchers.

The key is the health of the TEs since they make the engine go. Unfortunately, the Pats haven't had both TEs healthy to end a season. if that happens again, it looks like Belichick is intent on having a flexible enough receiver corps to keep the offense intact.

 

[RIpats88]

I feel like Pittsburgh will take the pick and let sanders walk...looking at it from their perspective...no matter how much "big ben" would hate it they likely have to know that they wont be competing for anything this year...they are in a rebuilding year.

sure they can "afford" sanders but they are so close to the cap that signing him will limit them in the rest of free agency with what they want to do(and they will likely lose him) not to mention that for a rebuilding team that 3rd rounder is much more valuable to them.

I see the trade off as a win-win for both teams.


On the flip side, for the Patriots you have a team that is competing to win NOW. expecting a rookie Wide Receiver to come in and contribute right away 500-600yards and 5-6TD's is abit much. Sanders is still young(26 years old) and already has performed in the NFL.

if the pats didnt hit their draft picks the past 3 years I would be more leery of going into this year with 4 picks...but right now they are one of the youngest teams in the league and have alot of talent. its time for Bill to cash in and go for the championship

 

[RayClay]

I wonder if the Pats would have drafted Sanders instead of Taylor Price if both were available. There was 8 spots difference. We did damn well with Gronk, Spikes and Cunningham in the second (hater or not, he fit the base defense than and still might find a spot) and Hernandez in the 4th.

 

[captain stone]

Actually, I think Sanders is going to be the slot and replace Welker's role. I think Amendola, Edelman, Jenkins, and Jones are the outside guys. I think the Pats have tried to bolster the outside receivers, just not in the way many people on this board wants (deep threat)...

Amendola & Edelman are not outside guys...and if they end up being our outside guys, then our season
will end the same way our season has ended for the last 8 years.

 

[patfanken]

Amendola & Edelman are not outside guys...and if they end up being our outside guys, then our season
will end the same way our season has ended for the last 8 years.

And that would better better than 95% of the rest of the league.

 

[lillloyd]

I feel like Pittsburgh will take the pick and let sanders walk...looking at it from their perspective...no matter how much "big ben" would hate it they likely have to know that they wont be competing for anything this year...they are in a rebuilding year.

sure they can "afford" sanders but they are so close to the cap that signing him will limit them in the rest of free agency with what they want to do(and they will likely lose him) not to mention that for a rebuilding team that 3rd rounder is much more valuable to them.

I keep seeing this sentiment, so I'll say again that I think the potential major flaw in this logic is that there is little chance that the Steelers brass will view this as a "rebuilding" year. It's April; I'm sure the Jets' and the Rams' FOs believe they'll be "competing for something" this year, let alone the Steelers'.... And why not? Every year there are teams that take major steps forward and "shock" the NFL with their success, typically not due to flashy signings but rather the development of 2nd, 3rd and 4th year players who are ascending but escape the attention of casual fans (and pundits).

I'm sure the Pittsburgh brass will concede the personnel defections don't help, but at the same time they'll see an 8-8 team that had several narrow losses, that had major injury problems to numerous key players (Woodley, Polamalu, DeCastro, OL), and that still has a good, SB vet QB and what will still likely be a very good (if not elite) defense. No one wears the "homer" glasses more stubbornly than a team's own brass...why would we expect Pittsburgh's to be any different?

Leaving aside whether *I* buy that argument, the point here is that I have a hard time with the notion that the Steelers' front office considers this a "rebuilding" year. And that said, I think it's much more likely that they'll match, because rightly or wrongly, they'll still be in "win now" mode. (And if they don't match, it will likely because they hold Sanders in poorer estimation than we all think they do...not because they're conceding 2013.)

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Appreciate your insight on the Steelers. Agree that quality orgs eschew "rebuilding" seasons.

 

[mgteich]

The open question is simple for PITT. Is Sanders worth $2.5M and a 3rd round pick for one year of play. PITT has no assurance at all that signing him will result is a long-term deal. They couldn't make a deal before free agency. There is no reason that they can now. If they match, Sanders will be in his contract year, looking for a big 2014 payday.

Perhaps the patriots have an agreement for a long-term deal, maybe not. A one yar deal seems to be in Sanders' best interest.

 

[captain stone]

I wonder if the Pats would have drafted Sanders instead of Taylor Price if both were available. There was 8 spots difference. We did damn well with Gronk, Spikes and Cunningham in the second (hater or not, he fit the base defense than and still might find a spot) and Hernandez in the 4th.

Bill should've drafted the Charlie Weis-coached Golden Tate instead of Cunningham, who most likely
would've been available where Taylor Price was taken. But if he wasn't, no biggie; Everson Griffen
& Corey Wootton were both still available.

With Golden Tate already here, this whole wasting of a 3rd-rounder on Sanders would be unnecessary.

 

[captain stone]

And that would better better than 95% of the rest of the league.

As someone once said, I'm not concerned with the other 31 teams.

We have wasted the past 8 years of Tom Brady. Doesn't that failure concern even you just a little?

 

[xlcjw72]

how does tom not get any responsibility both super bowls he got out played and made a stupid move passing out of the endzone.... we got spoiled as a fan base saw 3 quick super bowls and thought it was so easy.... you need luck, we haven't had it for a while....

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

how does tom not get any responsibility both super bowls he got out played and made a stupid move passing out of the endzone.... we got spoiled as a fan base saw 3 quick super bowls and thought it was so easy.... you need luck, we haven't had it for a while....

Not to excuse bad drafting and FA decisions that contributed to our NOT winning more SBs, the "luck" component cannot be overlooked. The 2001 team especially and even the other SB winning teams had pivotal plays break their way ensuring Lombardi victories. TFB did not play lights out in either of the last 2 SB losses although getting smashed onto his shoulder certainly did not help. And he did not make the best decisions on several deep and other (e.g. safety) throws. Let's hope that injury status improves and yes luck shines on the next season or 2. Most every SB winner has had an improbable play, catch, referee call (last SF series non-PI) or whatever go their way. Big factor in their Ws.

/thread hijack