RFA Emmanuel Sanders visits Pats 3/16; signs offer sheet 4/10, sheet matched 4/14

[tonyto3690]

Honestly, I hope the Steelers match. He's a decent receiver, but not worth a 3rd and a mildly big contract long term contract which is what I assume he and the Patriots have in a "wink wink" agreement.

He's injury prone, small, not good against the press (like what has been our issue for the past 4 years), and is Brandon Lloyd esque in his YAC.

That being said he's fast and has decent hands and is a solid route runner. Pretty worthless in the redzone though which is a big issue. Don't want to be trading a 3rd for a guy who is going to get benched every time we get in the redzone.

Would much rather run out a 3 TE set with Amendola and Vereen/Ridley. Or just a 2 TE set with Amendola and Edelman as the receivers.

 

[Miguel]

Albert Breer tweeted today:
Albert Breer @AlbertBreer 7h

... So renegotiation rule doesn't apply here. Patriots could lock Sanders up whenever, just has to be with a '13 cap # of $2.5M or above.

One add to Sanders/Patriots: Team can give him a long-term deal after doing 1-year deal, but cap # has to be at or above original # ($2.5M).

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Albert Breer tweeted today:
Albert Breer @AlbertBreer 7h

... So renegotiation rule doesn't apply here. Patriots could lock Sanders up whenever, just has to be with a '13 cap # of $2.5M or above.

One add to Sanders/Patriots: Team can give him a long-term deal after doing 1-year deal, but cap # has to be at or above original # ($2.5M).

Thanks Miguel.

I may have to call the radio station tomorrow, and let them know their boy Bouchette, is wrong on this issue.

 

[JMC00]

Yep.

However, there is no rule in the collective bargaining agreement against extending a restricted free agent in this situation.

The only rule in Article 9, Section 3 that applies to this situation is a set of language that prevents the "New Club" (New England, in this scenario) from reducing the player's salary in the first year.

"Neither the player nor the New Club may exercise an option in such Player Contract that reduces Salary in the first League Year of such contract until after the end of the first regular season covered by the Contract," the CBA reads.

This is why BB offered $2.5 million for one year. So if he does join and they extend him it's $2.5 million for this year and they aren't stuck with him having s $3.5-4+million cap hit this year.

 

[Gumby]

bored - cant sleep and reading the cba to help:

So - piece on regular extensions:

Section 8. Renegotiations and Extensions:

(a) Provided that all Salary Cap requirements are met, Player Contracts for current and future years may be renegotiated and/or extended except as follows:

(i) The contract of a Veteran Player may not be renegotiated to increase the Salary to be paid to the player during the original terms of the contract for a period of twelve months after the player's most recent contract renegotiation. The first renegotia*tion of a Veteran Player Contract, however, may take place at any time.
(ii) ................ for a prior League Year.
(iii) No contract renegotiations may be done for a current season after the last regular season game of that season
(iv) A Player Contract signed by a Rookie may not be renegotiated except as provided in Article 7.
(b) ......
(c) ......
(d) .......
(e) An amendment to a Player Contract that changes the terms under which signing bonus is paid is a renegotiation.

And the applicable piece on RFA contracts by the NEW CLUB:

Art 8
Section 3. Offer Sheet and Right of First Refusal Procedures:

(c) No First Refusal Exercise Notice.
If the Prior Club does not give the Restricted Free Agent the First Refusal Exercise Notice within the applicable period, the player and the New Club shall be deemed to have entered into a binding agreement, which they shall promptly formalize in a Player Contract, containing
(i) all the Principal Terms;
(ii) those terms of the NFL Player Contract not modified by the Principal Terms; and
(ii)i such additional terms, not less favorable to the Restricted Free Agent than those contained in the Offer Sheet,
as may be agreed upon between the Restricted Free Agent and the New Club (subject to Section 5 below), and the Restricted Free Agent's Prior Club shall receive from the New Club the Draft Choice Compensation, if any, specified in Section 2 above of this Article.

Any Club that does not have available, in the upcom*ing Draft, the selection choice or choices (its own or better choices in the applicable rounds) needed to provide Draft Choice Compensation in the event of a timely First Refusal Exercise Notice may not sign an Offer Sheet in such circumstances.

The player and the New Club may not renegotiate such Player Contract to reduce the Salary in such contract until after the end of the first regular season covered by the Contract. Neither the player nor the New Club may exercise an option in such Player Contract that reduces Salary in the first League Year of such contract until after the end of the first regular season covered by the Contract.

So, it appears (IMO) that the Pats (if squeelers dont match) will be locked in to pay Sanders AT LEAST what the offer was; but since any change would be the FIRST RENEGOTIATION, they could renegotiate to add more years + more $$.

what to me is still unclear is if the offer is for say 1.5 SB and 1M salary (so 2.5 'Salary' as CBA defines) and you extend the contract by 1yr (say for ex 1M, and bump the SB .5M)- that defers the cap hit; and nominally decreases the 'average annual Salary' (to 2M), .......but does that violate the no reduction in 1st year rule?

in other words is the reduction rule counting ACTUAL COMPENSATION or SALARY CAP HIT or both?

now I can sleep........

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Yep.



This is why BB offered $2.5 million for one year. So if he does join and they extend him it's $2.5 million for this year and they aren't stuck with him having $3.5-4 million cap hit this year.

That is good news.

Even though I'm not completely on board, with this signing I am pulling for the guy.

It's no wonder he is taking defense through twitter when his current teams fans, and media have pretty much written him off like yesterdays trash. It's got to be a little disheartening to hear, and read that stuff everyday.

Living well is the best revenge, and hopefully Sanders can live well in a Pats uniform.

 

[JackBauer]

He's injury prone, small, not good against the press (like what has been our issue for the past 4 years)

Does a good job of beating press man coverage with his feet and hands.

Seriously, dude. Getting kinda hard to take you seriously.

 

[lillloyd]

That is good news.

Even though I'm not completely on board, with this signing I am pulling for the guy.

It's no wonder he is taking defense through twitter when his current teams fans, and media have pretty much written him off like yesterdays trash. It's got to be a little disheartening to hear, and read that stuff everyday.

Living well is the best revenge, and hopefully Sanders can live well in a Pats uniform.

Bouchette is arguing to take the pick rather than keep Sanders, but there's a lot more to the argument than just his evaluation of Sanders' ability as a player, including the ability of Pittsburgh to sign Sanders to a longer term deal if they match. He factors into his assessment that the Steelers are in "transition" and could use both the pick and the cap headroom...pretty much arguments that have been thrown around a lot on this board. Methinks Sanders is reading a bit too much into Bouchette's comments, and is being pretty selective in what he's responding to. You have to see the whole blog entry (I'd link but it's a subscription).

The worst that Bouchette writes about Sanders is that he's a "nice" WR but "no Lynn Swann"...which could be said about 99% of the WRs in the league. He says he would be a "lame duck" starter, but that's again due to the expectation that Sanders would walk for more money elsewhere. (Wallace's overall suspect focus level last year in his "lame duck" season is something I'm sure has crossed the minds of Pitt's decision makers re/ Sanders).

He also makes what I think is a compelling argument for taking the pick: namely, if a WR of Sanders' caliber and pedigree were available for Pittsburgh's 3rd rounder, would we make that trade (or signing)? The answer, most likely, is no.

Anyway I don't see that Sanders is being wronged in any way by Pittsburgh's media or its fans. I think Sanders is guilty of "rabbit ears" here, and is taking large offense where little has been given. I'm sure most Steelers' fans would love to keep him, but under the circumstances it might be better to get the compensation while we can.

(BTW Sanders *did* sign an offer sheet with another team. Absolutely nothing wrong with that...but then again there's nothing wrong with Pittsburgh fans or media reacting to that signing objectively...which for some means concluding that it's best to take the draft pick.)

One thing no one is really talking about is the opportunity for Sanders himself. Obviously he's going to an excellent organization and QB situation if he goes to NE. But the Pats have had FAs come and go at WR, and there's no guarantee that Sanders will better than a 4th option. He's learning a new offense as well. In Pitt he'd be guaranteed a starting spot, in a system he knows, and would at worst be the #3 option (frankly, more likely the #2 option with Miller hurt). Roethlisberger might not be Brady but he's not a bad QB option himself. Sanders seems like a good kid, so I hope whatever he chooses works out for him...but if he were just trying to rack up numbers on a one-year deal with an eye towards UFA, the situation in Pitt seems like more of a sure thing.

 

[Frezo]

Sanders seems like a good kid, so I hope whatever he chooses works out for him...but if he were just trying to rack up numbers on a one-year deal with an eye towards UFA, the situation in Pitt seems like more of a sure thing.

It's out of his control now, right? His future is solely up to the Steelers.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Re: Emmanuel Sanders tweets about an article

Lloyd, and 2 rookie wr's is hardly a huge downgrade from Sanders, if that's the path they take.

Mike Wallace, Brown and Sanders > Two rookies and Brown. They don't have Lloyd

 

[supafly]

That is good news.

Even though I'm not completely on board, with this signing I am pulling for the guy.

It's no wonder he is taking defense through twitter when his current teams fans, and media have pretty much written him off like yesterdays trash. It's got to be a little disheartening to hear, and read that stuff everyday.

Living well is the best revenge, and hopefully Sanders can live well in a Pats uniform.

I'm glad to see you coming around, FF. I am warming up more to the idea myself.

We obviously don't know whether or not he'll actually be coming here, but I think that there are some positives in the equation for sure. Sometimes it's hard to judge that kind of player behind the bigger names/targets of who he's been playing with (Wallace, H.Miller, A.Brown), so if Belichick thinks it's worth a shot all we can do is trust him.

One thing I think is important to keep in mind is that we will almost surely take a rookie WR too, which will help to provide a complete overhaul on the position, but also allow for a guy like Sanders to be ahead of that curve due to his NFL experience. We had a piss poor WR group last season, and needed an upgrade in talent/speed/outside threat/age/size etc all across the board. While Sanders may not be a guy with the name recognition of G.Jennings etc, he may be able to do some nice things here with Tom Brady.

I think if they made him the outside WR (assuming you'd have Amendola in the slot like most do) he could produce just as good as Brandon Llyod did last season. The targets are going to be there, and Sanders (or maybe even a rookie or Jones) should be able to have better success at YACs and overall production. That's no knock on Llyod. I think he was a reliable target who produced better than the year before in Branch, but I also think that he was taken out fairly easily in many situations too, and lacked the extra something that we've been needing there lately, which is likely some speed and the ability to beat man coverage on an average rate.

 

[blackglass3]

I think Sanders is guilty of "rabbit ears" here, and is taking large offense where little has been given.

Our players on our team "take large offense where little has been given" EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Hard to fault Sanders for that, just seems like he'll fit into the Patriot Way.

 

[lillloyd]

Our players on our team "take large offense where little has been given" EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Hard to fault Sanders for that, just seems like he'll fit into the Patriot Way.

LOL I guess that's true! Still I hope if he does leave that he doesn't think that the fan base didn't value him in Pittsburgh. He's a valuable guy that I'm sure everyone would prefer to keep. And with the offer sheet being that low, maybe they will keep him, who knows.

FWIW I've always thought his injury in the GB-Pitt Super Bowl had a big impact on that game--particularly the final drive, where the wideouts (particularly Wallace, who probably barely knew his own route assignments at the time, let alone Sanders) were out of position just looked lost. Not that we had any business at all winning that game (Rodgers was lights-out,we lost turnovers 3-0, and GB lost a ton of secondary guys to injury themselves)...but I've always thought the Sanders injury contributed to the disjointed feel of that last crappy two minute drill.

 

[lillloyd]

Browns force Ravens' hand, sign C. Taylor to an offer sheet - Baltimore Sun

Kansas City Chiefs - Chiefs Match Offer Sheet to LB Mike Maslowski

I am sure that other RFAs have also been signed to one-year offers.

This is funny--Sanders is actually the 3rd time the *Patriots* have signed a Steelers player to a one-year offer sheet in the past 12 years.

2001: Chris Fuamatu ("He's a BAD Ma'afala!") -- Pitt matched
2004: Rodney Bailey -- NE got him and compensated Pitt a 6th rounder, never played a down due to injury
2013: Sanders

Stop raiding our roster! And here's hoping that no matter what happens, Sanders has a better career going forward than the other two...

 

[lillloyd]

It's out of his control now, right? His future is solely up to the Steelers.

True, that. Shoulda said "wherever he ends up".

But I guess if they have a multiyear extension already worked out for him, Sanders would know. And if this is the case, maybe he *is* virtually guaranteed being better than the #4 option. So maybe there's not nearly as much risk as it appears.

 

[signbabybrady]

Bouchette is arguing to take the pick rather than keep Sanders, but there's a lot more to the argument than just his evaluation of Sanders' ability as a player, including the ability of Pittsburgh to sign Sanders to a longer term deal if they match. He factors into his assessment that the Steelers are in "transition" and could use both the pick and the cap headroom...pretty much arguments that have been thrown around a lot on this board. Methinks Sanders is reading a bit too much into Bouchette's comments, and is being pretty selective in what he's responding to. You have to see the whole blog entry (I'd link but it's a subscription).

The worst that Bouchette writes about Sanders is that he's a "nice" WR but "no Lynn Swann"...which could be said about 99% of the WRs in the league. He says he would be a "lame duck" starter, but that's again due to the expectation that Sanders would walk for more money elsewhere. (Wallace's overall suspect focus level last year in his "lame duck" season is something I'm sure has crossed the minds of Pitt's decision makers re/ Sanders).

He also makes what I think is a compelling argument for taking the pick: namely, if a WR of Sanders' caliber and pedigree were available for Pittsburgh's 3rd rounder, would we make that trade (or signing)? The answer, most likely, is no.

Anyway I don't see that Sanders is being wronged in any way by Pittsburgh's media or its fans. I think Sanders is guilty of "rabbit ears" here, and is taking large offense where little has been given. I'm sure most Steelers' fans would love to keep him, but under the circumstances it might be better to get the compensation while we can.

(BTW Sanders *did* sign an offer sheet with another team. Absolutely nothing wrong with that...but then again there's nothing wrong with Pittsburgh fans or media reacting to that signing objectively...which for some means concluding that it's best to take the draft pick.)

One thing no one is really talking about is the opportunity for Sanders himself. Obviously he's going to an excellent organization and QB situation if he goes to NE. But the Pats have had FAs come and go at WR, and there's no guarantee that Sanders will better than a 4th option. He's learning a new offense as well. In Pitt he'd be guaranteed a starting spot, in a system he knows, and would at worst be the #3 option (frankly, more likely the #2 option with Miller hurt). Roethlisberger might not be Brady but he's not a bad QB option himself. Sanders seems like a good kid, so I hope whatever he chooses works out for him...but if he were just trying to rack up numbers on a one-year deal with an eye towards UFA, the situation in Pitt seems like more of a sure thing.

I am sure he is selectively picking out some of the negative as you say but at the same time I find it odd and a little concerning that the fan base and media would be so quick to give up on him. I compare it a little to Edelman and Sanders has been more productive and was drafted higher yet most of us(media included) wanted Edelman back and none of us turned on him when he went to visit the Giants (granted a FA visit is not the same as signing an offer sheet).

Also not sure I completely agree that going back to the Steelers would be a better spot for him. Sure there is familarity and Big Ben is a solid QB but unless the Steelers are willing to invest in him long term I am not sure how you can say he would be their #2 WR. If he is in a lame duck year than it would make sense that the Steelers would begin filling his spot now and while his experience would give him a leg up over a rookie the team would be wanting the rookie to succeed more than him.

 

[dales804]

Question for those who know: is it possible to find out beforehand if PIT will match the offer or do we have to wait until the deadline expires to officially find out? To clarify, is it possible for PIT to come out, say, tomorrow and announce they won't match and then have Sanders officially be a Patriot.

 

[lillloyd]

I am sure he is selectively picking out some of the negative as you say but at the same time I find it odd and a little concerning that the fan base and media would be so quick to give up on him. I compare it a little to Edelman and Sanders has been more productive and was drafted higher yet most of us(media included) wanted Edelman back and none of us turned on him when he went to visit the Giants (granted a FA visit is not the same as signing an offer sheet).

Also not sure I completely agree that going back to the Steelers would be a better spot for him. Sure there is familarity and Big Ben is a solid QB but unless the Steelers are willing to invest in him long term I am not sure how you can say he would be their #2 WR. If he is in a lame duck year than it would make sense that the Steelers would begin filling his spot now and while his experience would give him a leg up over a rookie the team would be wanting the rookie to succeed more than him.

I have to strongly disagree re/ the depth chart--Sanders is an absolute lock to be the WR2 if he stays. He is (deservedly) higher on the depth chart than Cotchery or Burress (who didn't dress some days last year...Burress is purely a depth signing). If he stays, he's starting, pure and simple.

As far as rookies go, I guess it would depend on the rookie, but barring rare exceptions it's more typical for rookie WRs to be eased in during their rookie seasons. *Maybe* I could see a Tavon Austin coming in and stealing a few snaps, but much more likely would be a fast-developing rookie WR getting third down reps at a different position than Sanders. I don't see any Larry Fitzgeralds being available at #17, so I seriously doubt someone would outright take his WR2 spot.

Re/ the "giving up on him" and "turning on him" comments: I'm a Steelers fan who values Sanders--he is a starting-caliber WR--and like most Steelers fans would very much like to keep him in a perfect world. But I also see that his value currently is as much in "projection" as production; that he has had injury issues in the past; that are tight against the cap; and that if we let him go we'd be guaranteed 3rd round compensation for a guy that has a very good chance of simply walking after this year. That is a calculated judgement, not "turning" on a player. To paint the Steelers fan base or media as somehow ungrateful or myopic regarding his potential departure is to utterly ignore the (critical) surrounding context, which obviously factors significantly into our opinions.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Steelers still unsure whether to match the offer. Their FO is split 50-50.

Report: Steelers Are Split 50-50 Whether to Match Patriots’ Offer to Emmanuel Sanders | New England Patriots | NESN.com

 

[JMC00]

Question for those who know: is it possible to find out beforehand if PIT will match the offer or do we have to wait until the deadline expires to officially find out? To clarify, is it possible for PIT to come out, say, tomorrow and announce they won't match and then have Sanders officially be a Patriot.

I don't see it happening either way. They'll either announce just before the deadline if they have matched or they'll just let it go to the deadline if the decide they don't want to without saying anything letting their silence speak.

But I suppose if they came to a decision sometime before they could announce it.