Report: Pats sign DT Tommy Kelly

[Mac&Barmore FTW]

Actually it doesn't suck because I don't go insane when they lose in the big games in the same way they always do because it is fairly easy to see coming every year.

I've got a lot of respect for you, but I'm not a big fan of that statement.

 

[Ivan]

Now you're doing what everyone else is trying to do, which is widen the discussion. What I posted was simple, obvious and historical. When you have money, you keep your players, and you don't get "attaboy" for that, because it's what you're supposed to do.

Dumervil has nothing to do with that, since he wasn't a Patriots player.


Just to point out, I'm actively avoiding two things here:

1.) Widening the discussion (something a Mod discussed while noting that he'd been deleting posts because people were not doing so)

2.) Getting into a full blown argument about something that's incredibly obvious and has been seen throughout history. You're all basically trying to argue against "water is wet".J


Those of you who wish to argue this point can argue against pretty much every GM in the NFL. I'm not going go further oblige this.

Actually Deus you started out by calling Patriot fans "logically inconsistent" for criticizing B2M regarding the Patriots overall approach to free agency and when I responded with a comprehensive rebuttal you then narrowed it down to their own free agents. I can pull up the quote when I get home later if you wish. And while I, like most patriot fans, wanted impact players I just don't see many opportunities for them to have added those types in this free agency without grossly overpaying them. And when I look at what they have done overall I believe they have had good free agency.

 

[captain stone]

Only thing I would have done differently would have been to be more active in the corner market because there were tons of guys worth the 4 million/year given to Arrington and also guys that got cheap 1-2 year deals because of the market that could have worked here. DT maybe make a run at Desmond Bryant though he got a lot from Cleveland? (I believe he went there). Obviously you cannot get all these players there is a salary cap, but they had a lot of cap space and still do. I I don't mind these moves it is just frustrating to see these be the only answers to problems we've had the past few years, the sign 6 vets and hope some find 1 last good year for the price of 2 impact young guys has not worked recently as Deus stated. Loved bringing back Vollmer + Talib, but we are treading water. All of this probably becomes a mute point if Jones takes a JPP year 2 jump, but you can't depend on that there are positions that need to be solidified with more than a revolving door, bandaid type players.

Biggest issue I have is the failings of the FO/Scouting at drafting wrs and dbs for going on half a decade with dbs and a decade with wrs. Those failings have resulted in numerous wastes of top draft picks and glaring holes at those positions the last few years. When that happens you need to pay the piper in free agency, or you just live with the holes and try patching them up with JAGs. Doesn't hurt you in the regular season, but it does in the playoffs.

My only opinion of Kelly is that he has declined sharply and its a meh signing he may be ok or he may do nothing. Probably went too far to say he's a bum maybe I should've said JAG. Either way the team seems to be the same as it was last year, which means an injury to Gronkowski and they may be done again. Would have liked to have more impactful additions to the defense so that there is a D to fall back on if the O struggles.

Anyway I just wanted to respond to you, done talking about other positions like Shmessy said its about Kelly. I think he's going to be nothing special, but I'll gladly enjoy being wrong if he can help with our anemic pass rush.

You're not the only one who doesn't think highly of Kelly:
WalterFootball.com: 2013 NFL Free Agent Grades

 

[Sciz]

You're not the only one who doesn't think highly of Kelly:
WalterFootball.com: 2013 NFL Free Agent Grades

Walt makes a lot of stuff up, and that's no exception. He knows that Kelly is lazy and doesn't care about winning about as much as I know whether Danny Amendola prefers boxers or briefs.

 

[belichick010405]

Deus - is there a problem with what the post-2004 Patriots era has been?

Last I checked, this team has made the playoffs in all but one of those years.

I have no idea how old you are, but in the days of Pat Patriot, this franchise was a mess and since Bill Belichick and his management trust took over, this proud franchise has won three Super Bowls, been to two others, and have made the playoffs in every year but three years and more importantly has been in a position personnel-wise to sustain injuries, which by the way is the name of the game in the NFL in addition to having a All-Pro Quarterback.

As far as buying "Walmart" free agents, this team has made more shrewd moves in free agency than just about any successful team in the league since 2000.

This is just a short list of free agents that have been here and contributing to this team based on your so-called "Walmart" theory.

2001: Antowain Smith, Mike Vrabel, Marc Edwards, David Patten, Jermaine Wiggins, Joe Andruzzi, Bobby Hamilton, Anthony Pleasant, Larry Izzo, Terrell Buckley, and Otis Smith

2002: Christian Fauria and Roman Phifer

2003: Rosy Colvin and Rick Lyle

2004: Corey Dillon, Randall Gay, Rodney Harrison

2005: Chad Brown

2006: Reche Caldwell

2007: Heath Evans, Sammy Morris, Jabar Gaffney, Junior Seau, Adalius Thomas, Dan Connolly

2008: Ben Jarvus Green-Ellis, Ryan Wendell

2009: Paris Lenon, Rob Nikovich, Kyle Arrington, Brian Hoyer

2010: Nick McDonald, Kyle Love, Danny Woodhead

2011: Andre Carter, Donald Thomas, Brian Waters, Mark Anderson

2012: Brandon Bolden, Brandon Lloyd, Michael Hoomanawanui, Jake Ballard, Markus Zusevics, Justin Francis, Marcus Forston, Steve Gregory

2013: Mike Kafka, Leon Washington, Danny Amendola, Emmanuel Sanders (pending), Donald Jones, Will Svitek, Armond Armstead, Marcus Bernard, Tommy Kelly, Jason Vega, Tracy Robertson, Aqib Talib (yea - I considered him a rental until he was re-signed) and Adrian Wilson.

And this list is not including the shrewd trades that they have made for both Wes Welker and Randy Moss along with any other moves that I have missed who have made a positive impact in this winning franchise. And this is without the better draft selections that they have made, especially over the last three drafts.

Over the last three drafts (2010-2012), 20 draft picks are still on this roster.

Between 2007 and 2009, five draft picks are on this roster.

Based on the guys that have been selected between 2010 and 2012, it is clear that the new management have done very well in addressing their needs and have improved their talent on the roster.

The reality is that the Patriots have a system of signing low money deals and generally ignoring the high price FAs. That system works when it works, and it fails miserably when it fails. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked very often in the post-2004 Patriots era.

This was a year where they could have signed young players in their prime for those Walmart prices. Instead, we've got guys like Kelly, Wilson and Jenkins. Even in a down year for salaries, BB couldn't resist getting the 'bargain' players instead of looking for the higher level players who were being had for a bargain. Time will tell us whether or not it worked this year.

 

[strngplyr]

2013: Mike Kafka, Leon Washington, Danny Amendola, Emmanuel Sanders (pending), Donald Jones, Will Svitek, Armond Armstead, Marcus Bernard, Tommy Kelly, Jason Vega, Tracy Robertson, Aqib Talib (yea - I considered him a rental until he was re-signed) and Adrian Wilson.

How can you title your list "have been here and contributing" and then include this years Free Agents as if they've done a thing for us?

 

[belichick010405]

How can you title your list "have been here and contributing" and then include this years Free Agents as if they've done a thing for us?

Are you expecting them to compete and perform for this team?

 

[Brady2Moss]

You've got pretty much everything wrong here, but that's likely because you're stuck on an analogy rather than the overaching concept. Again, the "Walmart" thing came from a report that the Patriots were talking about shopping at Walmart this year, and it's an obvious analogy even though it's imperfect. If you have an issue with it, take it up with them.

The reality is that the Patriots have a system of signing low money deals and generally ignoring the high price FAs. That system works when it works, and it fails miserably when it fails. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked very often in the post-2004 Patriots era.

This was a year where they could have signed young players in their prime for those Walmart prices. Instead, we've got guys like Kelly, Wilson and Jenkins. Even in a down year for salaries, BB couldn't resist getting the 'bargain' players instead of looking for the higher level players who were being had for a bargain. Time will tell us whether or not it worked this year.

This is exactly what I meant about people bringing up signings made a decade ago + Carter as reasoning to discredit the opposing view that the guy stinks. Like you said those Vrabel types aren't let go anymore and it has not worked for a few years now.

And yes times 100 this was the year where the top end, impact, young players were discounted at Walmart prices for BB to swoop in. Unfortunately that did not happen.

Basically the problem is not with the signings themselves as opposed to the overarching philosophy that has resulted in glaring holes in the pass rush and defensive backfield specifically. If all the young guys make a huge jump then the defense can very easily be top 10, but it can just as easily be crap again.

 

[belichick010405]

No offense - but to call what this franchise has been "doing" as "crap" shows how long you have been a "fan". And if there is one thing that I see are a lot of armchair general managers who love to critique without really knowing nothing about the inner-workings of an NFL franchise.

This is exactly what I meant about people bringing up signings made a decade ago + Carter as reasoning to discredit the opposing view that the guy stinks. Like you said those Vrabel types aren't let go anymore and it has not worked for a few years now.

And yes times 100 this was the year where the top end, impact, young players were discounted at Walmart prices for BB to swoop in. Unfortunately that did not happen.

Basically the problem is not with the signings themselves as opposed to the overarching philosophy that has resulted in glaring holes in the pass rush and defensive backfield specifically. If all the young guys make a huge jump then the defense can very easily be top 10, but it can just as easily be crap again.

 

[ausbacker]

This is exactly what I meant about people bringing up signings made a decade ago + Carter as reasoning to discredit the opposing view that the guy stinks. Like you said those Vrabel types aren't let go anymore and it has not worked for a few years now.

And yes times 100 this was the year where the top end, impact, young players were discounted at Walmart prices for BB to swoop in. Unfortunately that did not happen.

Basically the problem is not with the signings themselves as opposed to the overarching philosophy that has resulted in glaring holes in the pass rush and defensive backfield specifically. If all the young guys make a huge jump then the defense can very easily be top 10, but it can just as easily be crap again.

To be honest, I'm more concerned about health than development. Some guys improve and others regress. This is known. One of the large and contributing factors taking another 2 Superbowls from the Patriots has been health. I'd like a healthy team to see what they are capable of.

 

[Brady2Moss]

To be honest, I'm more concerned about health than development. Some guys improve and others regress. This is known. One of the large and contributing factors taking another 2 Superbowl from the Patriots has been health. I'd like a healthy team to see what they are capable of.

Agreed, really sucks that Gronk was out. I would like to get some kind of red zone threat to mitigate the damage if he isn't there in the playoffs. Big wide receiver and we should be good to go. Also Jones and Talib also being out just killed us in the end.

My hope for Kelly is that he can just be good enough to be trusted by the staff to be on the field. That should make Vince a bit fresher for the playoffs he seemed gassed at the end of this year.

 

[Brady2Moss]

No offense - but to call what this franchise has been "doing" as "crap" shows how long you have been a "fan". And if there is one thing that I see are a lot of armchair general managers who love to critique without really knowing nothing about the inner-workings of an NFL franchise.

I said the defense could be crap again. Which it has been for years I am not sure how you can argue that. I'm very sorry that I was still a sperm in the dark days of Patriots history, it makes you a much better fan than me. I am merely a "fan", a pretender when compared to you.

This is a forum were here to discuss things, no one knows about the inner-workings of an NFL franchise here so I guess we should all just throw up our hands and say "Well I don't know better so I can't comment".

 

[belichick010405]

You said the defense could be crap huh? I hate to break this to you but teams with "crap" defenses don't go to AFC Title games? ok? Do you get that yet?

The characterization of the Patriots defense as "crap" is a poor excuse for someone that is trying to make a point. You want to know who has a "crap" defense? Anyone who gave up more than 331 points over the course of a regular season.

I said the defense could be crap again. Which it has been for years I am not sure how you can argue that. I'm very sorry that I was still a sperm in the dark days of Patriots history, it makes you a much better fan than me. I am merely a "fan", a pretender when compared to you.

This is a forum were here to discuss things, no one knows about the inner-workings of an NFL franchise here so I guess we should all just throw up our hands and say "Well I don't know better so I can't comment".

 

[ausbacker]

Agreed, really sucks that Gronk was out. I would like to get some kind of red zone threat to mitigate the damage if he isn't there in the playoffs. Big wide receiver and we should be good to go. Also Jones and Talib also being out just killed us in the end.

My hope for Kelly is that he can just be good enough to be trusted by the staff to be on the field. That should make Vince a bit fresher for the playoffs he seemed gassed at the end of this year.

So you can post in a reasonable fashion!

We're in agreement. I'd like to see every level upgraded if they can. Whether or not the players are available and can be fit into the scheme and under the salary cap is the more pressing concern. I'd prefer the Patriots added value rather than committing to someone who they aren't sure about for a few seasons. That's worse than a one year flame out.

 

[Rob0729]

Walt makes a lot of stuff up, and that's no exception. He knows that Kelly is lazy and doesn't care about winning about as much as I know whether Danny Amendola prefers boxers or briefs.

Yeah, he seems all over the place on his grade. He gave the Broncos an A grade for Dominque Rodgers-Cromatarie with this write up:

"DRC" stands for Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. It could also stand for "Doesn't Really Care" because of his lethargy. Rodgers-Cromartie hasn't lived up to his potential. He shows flashes of brilliance at times, but he's often sluggish. I was worried that a team would offer him a big contract and get screwed in the process, but John Elway was smarter than that.

Elway is killing free agency, by the way. Whereas rival San Diego signed a worse corner, Derek Cox, to a 4-year, $20 million contract, Elway was able to fill the same big need by landing the superior Rodgers-Cromartie to a 1-year "prove it" deal. Elway will undoubtedly get the best out of DRC. It'll help that future Hall of Famer Champ Bailey will be on the other side of the field to help mentor the 27-year-old corner.

So Kelly who had a solid career is a bad pick up because of his lack of motivation and DRC who has had a vastly inconsistent career is a great pick up because he lacks motivation?

 

[Rob0729]

This is exactly what I meant about people bringing up signings made a decade ago + Carter as reasoning to discredit the opposing view that the guy stinks. Like you said those Vrabel types aren't let go anymore and it has not worked for a few years now.

And yes times 100 this was the year where the top end, impact, young players were discounted at Walmart prices for BB to swoop in. Unfortunately that did not happen.

Basically the problem is not with the signings themselves as opposed to the overarching philosophy that has resulted in glaring holes in the pass rush and defensive backfield specifically. If all the young guys make a huge jump then the defense can very easily be top 10, but it can just as easily be crap again.

Isn't Ninkovich a guy like Vrabel? He isn't as good (although he could be), but he is a guy who has been dumped by several teams and found a very good role with the Pats.

BTW, here are some of the biggest Walmart shoppers (guys who rarely if ever makes big splashes in free agency) over the last decade:

Patriots - Three Super Bowls, two more Super Bowl appearances, two more AFC Championship appearances since 2001
Steelers - Two Super Bowls and two AFC Championship appearances since 2001
Ravens - One Super Bowl and two AFC Championship appearances in the last decade
Colts - One Super Bowl, one Super Bowl appearance, and one AFC Championship appearance over the last decade
Giants - Two Super Bowls

And here are some of the biggest Nordstrom shoppers over the last decade:

Washington - Three playoff seasons in the last decade and 1-3 in the playoffs
Jets - Two AFC Championship appearances and needed to rip apart their team this year
Cowboys - Three playoff appearances in the last decade and also 1-3
Bears - Three playoff appearances with one Super Bowl appearance and one AFC Championship appearance in the last decade

Seriously, which way to shop is more successful.

And BTW, I am sorry to others to break my vow to not respond to this guy.

 

[captain stone]

Yeah, he seems all over the place on his grade. He gave the Broncos an A grade for Dominque Rodgers-Cromatarie with this write up:



So Kelly who had a solid career is a bad pick up because of his lack of motivation and DRC who has had a vastly inconsistent career is a great pick up because he lacks motivation?

I agree that it looks inconsistent, though perhaps one of the reasons the DRC signing was given an A grade
was the one-year length. I was shocked (not in a good way) that Kelly was signed for 2 years.

I'd rather have seen Bill try to sign one of Chris Canty, Mike DeVito, Cullen Jenkins, Sammy Lee Hill,
Derek Landri, Marcus Spears, Vaughn Martin, Glenn Dorsey or SenDerrick Marks.

 

[JackBauer]

So Kelly who had a solid career is a bad pick up because of his lack of motivation and DRC who has had a vastly inconsistent career is a great pick up because he lacks motivation?

I get that Cox is oft-injured, but on what planet is DRC > Derek Cox?

 

[Rob0729]

I agree that it looks inconsistent, though perhaps one of the reasons the DRC signing was given an A grade
was the one-year length. I was shocked (not in a good way) that Kelly was signed for 2 years.

I'd rather have seen Bill try to sign one of Chris Canty, Mike DeVito, Cullen Jenkins, Sammy Lee Hill,
Derek Landri, Marcus Spears, Vaughn Martin, Glenn Dorsey or SenDerrick Marks.

Kelly has $1 million guaranteed. He basically has an one year deal if he doesn't perform. His cap hit if cut next year is only one million which isn't huge.

BTW, DRC contract is $5m for one year and Kelly's is a maximum of $5million over two years. So the Pats got Kelly for two years for the same price that Denver got DRC for one.

 

[Ivan]

Which NFL team does Walter run?



Just curious about how he became an "expert" on NFL talent.