Remember when we all thought 'We can't win with this defense"?

[Off The Grid]

"We"??

What You Mean "We"...White Man??

Pending: A Return to Dominance!!

 

[NewFeep]

There was a point last night in the 3rd quarter where the offense had just committed it's 4th punt in a row (3 of which were 3 + out) and the score was 21-0. I was worried. Talib was out (injury mid 2Q I believe). The Texans are easily prolific enough to overcome a 3 score deficit with ~28 minutes of clock left.

Then:
Foster runs left 3 yards (Ninko, Deadrick)
Foster runs up the middle -2 yards (Deadrick)
Schaub completes pass to A. Johnson for 8 yards (Dennard)
Punt on 4th & 1.

So, with the opportunity ripe for a drive to make it a 2 score game with TONS of clock left, Hou used it's best offensive players and the Pats forced a 3 and out! 2 runs for 1 yard in an important drive followed by a textbook tackle short of the 1st down is a defensive stand.

The next series was the bomb to Stallworth. Game over.

Beautifully written and right on the money! So succinctly summed up I wish I had posted this........

That defensive series and the nail delivered in the Brady to Stalls bomb was the ball game..... Great post.......

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

Beautifully written and right on the money! So succinctly summed up I wish I had posted this........

That defensive series and the nail delivered in the Brady to Stalls bomb was the ball game..... Great post.......

Thanks man :eat3:

 

[Off The Grid]

Remember when we all thought 'We can't win with this defense"?

To put it another way...

Speak for yourself, Bud. :snob:

The Patriots Defense ~ A Return To Dominance

1 ~ It's far too early to say that my much-maligned Prediction has been proven correct. We were dominant, Monday Night, against our best Opposition of the Year. But let's see how the future plays out.

2 ~ But it's not too early ~ after 3 consecutive Games of holding the Opposition under 20 Points ~ to point out that those geniuses who berated my Prediction had their heads up their @$$es!!

 

[mayoclinic]

Speak for yourself, Bud. :snob:

The Patriots Defense ~ A Return To Dominance

1 ~ It's far too early to say that my much-maligned Prediction has been proven correct. We were dominant, Monday Night, against our best Opposition of the Year. But let's see how the future plays out.

2 ~ But it's not too early ~ after 3 consecutive Games of holding the Opposition under 20 Points ~ to point out that those geniuses who berated my Prediction had their heads up their @$$es!!

The problem with these "predictions" is that people equate them with instant results. Looking at the defense in pre-season and against the Titans and predicting that the talent was finally there to see a return to dominance was not unreasonable. It didn't mean that the defense was going to be instantly dominant on a regular basis - nor is it reasonable to expect that it will be now. Injuries and inexperience played a factor. And the defense as constituted at the time of that prediction turned out to still have a significant Achilles heel, which BB has addressed.

This is the first Pats' defense since 2003 that I see having the talent up front, in the middle, and on the back end to potentially "dominate". The 2004 team had the talent, but injuries to the secondary took a toll. By 2005 the LB corps had taken a hit, then the secondary started to go down, and after 2008 the DL. BB has slowly rebuilt all 3 units in terms of talent. We're still maybe 1 or 2 players away. But it's a very fragile thing. A couple of injuries here or there and BB may have to go back to more conservative schemes to cover up deficiencies.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I don't think that "concern" about the D after not being able to get a stop in Baltimore (leaving aside questions about the officiating) and after blowing the lead in Seattle to go to 3--3 was completely unwarranted; not "panic," but "concern."

My own view always presupposed that they would win the Division but was also "concerned" that the Pats were making things way too hard on themselves for a playoff run by putting the O in the position of having to put up 30+ points per game, no matter how squirrely the opponent. While I no longer have that concern, looking back, I wouldn't change what I thought at that time.

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't think that "concern" about the D after not being able to get a stop in Baltimore (leaving aside questions about the officiating) and after blowing the lead in Seattle to go to 3--3 was completely unwarranted; not "panic," but "concern."

My own view always presupposed that they would win the Division but was also "concerned" that the Pats were making things way too hard on themselves for a playoff run by putting the O in the position of having to put up 30+ points per game, no matter how squirrely the opponent. While I no longer have that concern, looking back, I wouldn't change what I thought at that time.

Concern about the defense was entirely warranted. No doubt about it. And frankly, if the team hadn't pulled the trigger on the Talib trade, I doubt we'd be where we are today. I was praying for that one to go down, and I'd just about host hope that it would happen when it went through. It seemed clear to me that the problems on defense required more than just getting back some injured players and getting them more used to playing with each other. We're very fortunate that the FO and coaching staff not only recognized the problem, but was able to address it effectively in mid-season. And not everyone thoughti t was a great idea at the time - and I'm not just talking about the board. There was some whining in the media, too, which seemed a bit petulant even at the time:

Trade for Talib a desperate move for Patriots - Extra Points - Boston.com
The Boston Globe
Patriots Make Desperate Trade For Aqib Talib - Business Insider

Whether you believe that the Patriots sold their soul to the Devil out of desperation or just made a rational assessment that they needed to upgrade their personnel and change their approach and went out and got the best available player at reasonable cost, it was pretty clear that things through week 7 weren't working well enough, and getting Patrick Chung and Steve Gregory back wasn't going to be the answer. So I have no problem with concern. Even with some panic. But some of the shots taken at the the team were pretty brutal, and there seemed to be a general abdication of hope by many that the defense was salvageable. I personally thought both were a bit extreme - but, as Deus would point out, this is a message board, and extremism is probably to be expected.

 

[patfanken]

It's semantics.

No one every thought that the team would win playing soft zone coverage and BBDB defense with no pressure. That just doesn't work. The problem was, without the defensive personnel to cover effectively, anything else just resulted in huge plays. So it was a choice between death by paper cut vs. getting decapitated.

Part of the problem was injury related, part of it was youth and inexperience, part of it was changing personnel weekly, part of it was playing people out of position, part of it was just not having enough talent at the right positions. The front 7 always had the talent, but it was effectively paralyzed by the problems on the back end. Those problems have been rectified. Call it a "whole new defense" if you like, or a "new scheme", or an "adjustment", or a "fix". It's all the same thing.

I suspect that BB has wanted to play like this for a long, long time, but he hasn't had the personnel. He had some of the back end personnel in 2009 (the secondary was quite good with that year) but didn't have the personnel up front. The secondary fell apart in 2010 and last year. He's finally got the horses up front and enough talent on the back end to get creative without fear of being torn apart.

You know mostly I agree with you, but here we have to part company.....at least to some degree.

Its become very fashionable here to equate blitzing to success. That is simply not the case. Let us not forget that the old, very aggravating, but effective bend but don't break defense is what got us to the point that if any of a half dozen plays that go right, wins us the superbowl.....with some horrid but willing talent in the secondary. So before we throw away the BBDB defense like an old rag for some shiny new aggressive "blitzing" D. Lets remember that its slow and steady that wins the race

Blitzing DOES NOT equal success! HELLO, you only have to go all the way back to.....ah....Monday night to see why. Good QB play will destroy good blitzing EVERY TIME. Have you all missed the last decade of Steeler games. What defense is more aggressive than the Steelers. What team is more often in the top 10 of most defense stats.....and what team has been more consistently shredded by the Pats offense than the Steeler defense. In fact it looks just like what we saw on Monday from the latest version of serial blitzers.

How quickly we forget that the real reason for the Jets success back in the 2010 playoffs was that they DIDN'T blitz for the first time, and Brady went from laser sharp to slow and hesitant. (BTW- my sincere apologies for bring back that awful memory)

No Folks. Blitzing has its place of course. And for disclosure sake, it should be noted that I have been among the many that was calling for Matt Patricia to dial up some more blitzes. HOWEVER....being more aggressive does NOT mean BB abandoning 4 decades of his basic SUCCESSFUL defensive philosophy

There is no doubt that the talent in the back end has vastly improved, through a combination of health, experience, improved athleticism, and just plain swagger. It certainly now allows the Pats to play more man and mixed coverages and be 100 times more creative in their defensive schemes. BUT do not equate being more aggressive and playing more Man coverages to an abandonment of the BBDB defense as a staple of the Bellichick defensive principles. Its NEVER been pretty or stylish, but its ALWAYS been effective in winning games

 

[mayoclinic]

You know mostly I agree with you, but here we have to part company.....at least to some degree.

Its become very fashionable here to equate blitzing to success. That is simply not the case. Let us not forget that the old, very aggravating, but effective bend but don't break defense is what got us to the point that if any of a half dozen plays that go right, wins us the superbowl.....with some horrid but willing talent in the secondary. So before we throw away the BBDB defense like an old rag for some shiny new aggressive "blitzing" D. Lets remember that its slow and steady that wins the race

Blitzing DOES NOT equal success! HELLO, you only have to go all the way back to.....ah....Monday night to see why. Good QB play will destroy good blitzing EVERY TIME. Have you all missed the last decade of Steeler games. What defense is more aggressive than the Steelers. What team is more often in the top 10 of most defense stats.....and what team has been more consistently shredded by the Pats offense than the Steeler defense. In fact it looks just like what we saw on Monday from the latest version of serial blitzers.

How quickly we forget that the real reason for the Jets success back in the 2010 playoffs was that they DIDN'T blitz for the first time, and Brady went from laser sharp to slow and hesitant. (BTW- my sincere apologies for bring back that awful memory)

No Folks. Blitzing has its place of course. And for disclosure sake, it should be noted that I have been among the many that was calling for Matt Patricia to dial up some more blitzes. HOWEVER....being more aggressive does NOT mean BB abandoning 4 decades of his basic SUCCESSFUL defensive philosophy

There is no doubt that the talent in the back end has vastly improved, through a combination of health, experience, improved athleticism, and just plain swagger. It certainly now allows the Pats to play more man and mixed coverages and be 100 times more creative in their defensive schemes. BUT do not equate being more aggressive and playing more Man coverages to an abandonment of the BBDB defense as a staple of the Bellichick defensive principles. Its NEVER been pretty or stylish, but its ALWAYS been effective in winning games

I don't recall using the word "blitz" once Ken. I've never equated blitzing with success. Nor did I use the word "aggressive". Nor did I suggest that BBDB has no place in our defensive repertoire.

I did make one very specific statement:

No one thought that the team would win playing soft zone coverage and BBDB defense with no pressure.

I'll stand by that. Whether it's via the blitz or a basic rush, if you can't get pressure and you give the receivers a pad, any decent QB is going to pick you apart in today's NFL. You'll give up huge chucks of yardage as teams march up and down the field. Which is what happened. We had no ability to stop the deep ball so we played way off receivers and gave them a huge cushion. We couldn't get enough pressure with a 4 man rush to be effective on a regular basis - though Chandler Jones did his best - and too often QBs had enough time to zip the ball to a wide open receiver. And when the tackling was sloppy, it got even uglier.

I'll stand by that statement. It's not an indictment of BBDB per se. It's an indictment of BBDB with ineffective pressure and soft coverage. It just doesn't work.

I also made one much more ambiguous statement:

I suspect that BB has wanted to play like this for a long, long time, but he hasn't had the personnel.

What did I mean by "this"? I didn't mean blitz all the time. I didn't mean play man coverage 100% of the time. I didn't mean never play BBDB. I mean have the confidence in his coverage to be creative up front and mix things up, be able to switch coverages and front schemes around, be able to be more aggressive at times, be able to selectively take a few chances without fear of being burned. Just as the offensive line protection gives Brady and the offense to do so many things, having a level of confidence security in the back end allows the defense to get creative.

I think most people that have followed BB and the Pats understand that he is grounded in certain defensive principles that may seem outmoded to some, but to which he staunchly adheres. Edge setting. Gap control. Sound fundamentals. Avoiding the big play. Stopping the run. Boring, but effective. He's never going to abandon all of that for a flashy bells and whistles defense just because he has some new toys. I wasn't implying that. But I think that BB has had his hands tied form being creative for a long time because of the limitations of his defensive personnel. People have complained about how "vanilla" the defense was, and wondered when we would see more of the things that we used to see from the old Pats defenses of the SB years - defenses that weren't flashy, but which were very effective. Well, I think we're going to start seeing more of them, if we can keep the key players on the field. The hemorrhaging has stopped, and now I think the confidence is starting to show.

I'm reminded about the Grantland article that came out just before last year's Super Bowl, analyzing the Pats' defensive front schemes:

Bill Belichick, Vince Wilfork, and the New England Patriots defense - Grantland

That article concluded:

Of course, nothing Belichick does will transform the Patriots' defense into a great one; they don't have the talent. But coaching is about more than talent. It's about taking the talent that's available and giving it the best possible chance to succeed. And that's something Belichick does incredibly well.

Since that was written we've added Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower, Aqib Talib and Alfonzo Dennard, and moved McCourty to FS. Not to mention some role players. That's a significant talent upgrade. With a healthy Wilfork, Jones, Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, McCourty, Talib and Dennard the Pats have a pretty darn talented core to build around, with solid role players in Ninkovich, Love and Gregory. The talent level is the best it's been in a long, long time. And I think that it's time for BB to start moving away from having his back to the wall, and starting building on that talent level.

But I'm sure BBDB will still have a role. But it should be a more effective form of BBDB.

 

[IllegalContact]

this is not the same defense that gave up 500 yards to the ravens

this is not the same defense that gave up 2 late TD's to the seahawks

it just isn't

 

[patfanken]

"We"??

What You Mean "We"...White Man??

Pending: A Return to Dominance!!

Cmon Grid. You were in the forefront of the "this defense is better than last year's brigade", but you were the ONLY one there.

 

[Deus Irae]

Concern about the defense was entirely warranted. No doubt about it. And frankly, if the team hadn't pulled the trigger on the Talib trade, I doubt we'd be where we are today.

Talib's been the key:

Without Talib, Chung is starting with Gregory.
Without Talib, McCourty is still at corner, and Arrington is the CB2.
Without Talib, this team is still stuck playing almost exclusively zone coverage.
Without Talib, this team is not doubling its blitz percentage.
Without Talib, the linebackers would be in coverage instead of pressuring the QB.




Without Talib, we're still hoping for "gradual improvement over the course of the rest of the year".

 

[patfanken]

I don't recall using the word "blitz" once Ken. I've never equated blitzing with success. Nor did I use the word "aggressive". Nor did I suggest that BBDB has no place in our defensive repertoire.

I did make one very specific statements:



I'll stand by that. Whether it's via the blitz or a basic rush, if you can't get pressure and you give the receivers a pad, any decent QB is going to pick you apart in today's NFL. You'll give up huge chucks of yardage as teams march up and down the field. Which is what happened. We had no ability to stop the deep ball so we played way off receivers and gave them a huge cushion. We couldn't get enough pressure with a 4 man rush to be effective on a regular basis - though Chandler Jones did his best - and too often QBs had enough time to zip the ball to a wide open receiver. And when the tackling was sloppy, it got even uglier.

I'll stand by that statement. It's not an indictment of BBDB per se. It's an indictment of BBDB with ineffective pressure and soft coverage. It just doesn't work.

I also made one much more ambiguous statement:



What did I mean by "this"? I didn't mean blitz all the time. I didn't mean play man coverage 100% of the time. I didn't mean never play BBDB. I mean have the confidence in his coverage to be creative up front and mix things up, be able to switch coverages and front schemes around, be able to be more aggressive at times, be able to selectively take a few chances without fear of being burned. Just as the offensive line protection gives Brady and the offense to do so many things, having a level of confidence security in the back end allows the defense to get creative.

I think most people that have followed BB and the Pats understand that he is grounded in certain defensive principles that may seem outmoded to some, but to which he staunchly adheres. Edge setting. Gap control. Sound fundamentals. Avoiding the big play. He's never going to abandon all of that for a flashy bells and whistles defense just because he has some new toys. I wasn't implying that. But I think that BB has had his hands tied form being creative for a long time because of the limitations of his defensive personnel. People have complained about how "vanilla" the defense was, and wondered when we would see more of the things that we used to see from the old Pats defenses of the SB years - defenses that weren't flashy, but which were very effective. Well, I think we're going to start seeing more of them, if we can keep the key players on the field. The hemorrhaging has stopped, and now I think the confidence is starting to show.

I'm reminded about the Grantland article that came out just before last year's Super Bowl, analyzing the Pats' defensive front schemes:

Bill Belichick, Vince Wilfork, and the New England Patriots defense - Grantland

That article concluded:



With a healthy Wilfork, Jones, Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, McCourty, Talib and Dennard the Pats have a pretty darn talented core to build around, with solid role players in Ninkovich, Love and Gregory. The talent level is the best it's been in a long, long time. And I think that it's time for BB to start moving away from having his back to the wall, and starting building on that talent level.

But I'm sure BBDB will still have a role.

OK, I probably picked the wrong post to base my rank, Mayo. I think it was more to the myriad of Pats fans who were so thrilled to see the Pats be more aggressive, that they have gone completely to the "other side".

OF COURSE the soft BBDB defense, a la the Jags D of the Jack DelRio will get picked apart by a good QB, but I'm not talking about that either. BB showed everyone who could see, exactly how far you could get, with mediocre personnel and BBDB defense. And that was just ONE play (several different times) away from a superbowl. That was ONE fumble recovery out of 3. That was ONE Welker catch (or Brady throw- in case Ivan is watching ) That was one miracle catch by Maningham, who doesn't make miracle catches, etc. etc, etc.

THAT's how close the Pats came to a Lombardi, with clearly a sub-par secondary and a front seven that was undermanned to the point that Tracy White started the superbowl and Andre Carter couldn't. And THAT's how effective the BBDB defense can be in the right hands.

Don't forget, early on. I was among that minority that wasn't panicking about the D. I recognized how much better this D was, and that most of the problems were due to a lack of experience cohesion and health. THEN adding Talib and the move of McCourty to S took this D to another level. But it STILL needs more time and experience before we see even a near finished product. McCourty has a long way to go before he really starts to see the field and becomes more than just a Safety that doesn't give up the big play.

But I am starting to digress again.

So don't take it personnel. Your post was pretty much accurate. It was my reaction to it that wasn't.

 

[mayoclinic]

Talib's been the key:

Without Talib, Chung is starting with Gregory.
Without Talib, McCourty is still at corner, and Arrington is the CB2.
Without Talib, this team is still stuck playing almost exclusively zone coverage.
Without Talib, this team is not doubling its blitz percentage.
Without Talib, the linebackers would be in coverage instead of pressuring the QB.

Without Talib, we're still hoping for "gradual improvement over the course of the rest of the year".

I agree with almost all of that, except that I think BB was in the process of moving McCourty to FS anyway with Dennard emerging at CB. We might have seen Dennard and Arrington outside and McCourty at FS. But it's not a given. God forbid that we would still have Chung/Gregory/Wilson as our S combo - they all have skills, but none can protect the deep part of the field, and none has the skills to coordinate the secondary. McCourty provides both of those.

The point about the LBs is very important, and OTG mentioned it as well. With a second coverage safety (Gregory), Hightower and Spikes are freed up tremendously, particularly Spikes, whose strengths can be exploited and weaknesses limited. That's huge.

So far I'm liking what I see out of the Talliban(d) Defense.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Talib's been the key:

Without Talib, Chung is starting with Gregory.
Without Talib, McCourty is still at corner, and Arrington is the CB2.
Without Talib, this team is still stuck playing almost exclusively zone coverage.
Without Talib, this team is not doubling its blitz percentage.
Without Talib, the linebackers would be in coverage instead of pressuring the QB.




Without Talib, we're still hoping for "gradual improvement over the course of the rest of the year".

Agree in principle but I'd hazard thet DMC was headed to safety and likely Dennard to CB regardless. Your point was echoed by Wilfork who said postgame that now BB had the pieces/talent to deploy players differently, mixing up the defenses. He added that the coaching staff was very good at figuring out what guys could do best and coming up with schemes to implement it. Add in the experience of working together for a dozen real games and you also get the better on field communication that was visibly lacking earlier in the season. I also believe that film study geek DMC is a large contributor to the communication upgrade.

 

[mayoclinic]

Don't forget, early on. I was among that minority that wasn't panicking about the D. I recognized how much better this D was, and that most of the problems were due to a lack of experience cohesion and health. THEN adding Talib and the move of McCourty to S took this D to another level. But it STILL needs more time and experience before we see even a near finished product. McCourty has a long way to go before he really starts to see the field and becomes more than just a Safety that doesn't give up the big play.

This defense is far from a finished product. I think it's just beginning to get out of the "stop the hemorrhage" phase and get into the "build on what we have" phase. Hightower is just beginning to show signs of the kind of things we expected from him this season. McCourty has been great, but I agree he's only an infant as a FS compared to what he's capable of. I expect him to be at least an Earl Thomas kind of safety next year, and I think he could be even better than Thomas, who I think is great. Dennard still has only a half dozen starts under his belt or so, and Talib is still getting used to the system. I think this defense can get a LOT better over the next 6 (!) games this season. I'm not expecting a linear growth path either, particularly if there are injuries, but I think that this defense has finally turned the corner. And I want to see Talib and Spikes extended in order to keep continuity for the long term. It's been really hard getting to this point - this is not the time to lose a key piece and start over.

So don't take it personnel. Your post was pretty much accurate. It was my reaction to it that wasn't.

I didn't take it personally at all. As you say, we agree much of the time. I don't think we disagree this time, either.

 

[BananaRepublican]

McCourty is hitting his stride at safety.

He is quoted as saying that he could not have anticipated that pick a month ago, but did Monday Night because he's playing with more feel for the position now. So your perception is 100% correct. He obviously is feeling more confident now that he proved his intuition to be correct on that play.

It looks like the backfield shuffling has stopped (finally.) It looks like they have the guys they want at the positions they want, and they really aren't that bad. Using each guy correctly is a very big deal. I think Arrington is another one that proves that if you use him correctly he can be very good at what he does. Just don't ask him to cover guys outside the numbers. What could be simpler? :-D Har.

That backfield shuffling may have been the REAL Super Bowl Shuffle. A solid backfield was the one missing piece on the team and they shuffled and wheeled and dealed until they got what they wanted. That may have been the best job of coaching and front-officeship in the history of the sport. It took a lot of balls to make some of those switcheroos. You're benching a Chung, you're swapping a Dennard for a McCourty and pushing McCourty back. That takes balls because if it doesn't work they are screwed. It worked and I'm saying Bill would be COY if the Colts weren't doing so well. How do you compete against that? But look at this juggernaut Bill has built, and the final touches he has put on it this year. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

 

[Joker]

"So don't take it personnel. Your post was pretty much accurate. It was my reaction to it that wasn't."


I didn't take it personally at all. As you say, we agree much of the time. I don't think we disagree this time, either.

he didn't say "personal"...he said "personnel"....sounds like he's thinking of bringing down the axe....hope you got options, Mayo...perhaps the Lahey Clinic

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

It looks like the backfield shuffling has stopped (finally.) It looks like they have the guys they want at the positions they want, and they really aren't that bad. Using each guy correctly is a very big deal.

Just watched this video for another thread, but one thing to realize is "holy crap how did the Pats win playoff games with those guys playing in the secondary!?"

Edit:
I mention this because I'm feeling a bit better about the guys lining up there now. A nice healthy playoff run to really see what this team can do would be so sweet.

 

[mayoclinic]

"So don't take it personnel. Your post was pretty much accurate. It was my reaction to it that wasn't."


I didn't take it personally at all. As you say, we agree much of the time. I don't think we disagree this time, either.

he didn't say "personal"...he said "personnel"....sounds like he's thinking of bringing down the axe....hope you got options, Mayo...perhaps the Lahey Clinic

As long as it's not the Cleveland Clnic. That would be painful.