Re-visiting Jermaine Cunningham/Carlos Dunlap

[Sciz]

I would if the guy was named clay matthews. And who said anything about an overhaul? If you find someone with talent, make SOME changes to fit the player

Belichick's defense at the time was built around each player having the ability to take on blockers. Matthews is an OLB that has had most of his success going around blockers. You can't just say "this OLB no longer has to take on blockers" without making big changes throughout the whole defense.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Clay Matthews or Gronk?

That's what your choice is:

Patriots get:
2009 second round pick, 41, pick DB Darius Butler
2009 third round pick, 73, pick DB Derek Cox
2009 third round pick, 83, pick WR Brandon Tate
Patriots trade Cox to Jaguars.

2009 seventh round pick, 232, pick WR Julian Edelman
2010 second round, 44, traded that pick to the Raiders for 42 to pick TE Rob Gronkowski

Im sure BB could have found a way to draft both. All he had to do was convince Al Davis for pick 42 in 2010....

 

[BradyFTW!]

Cunningham was probably a better fit for the defense that we ran at the time, but Dunlap has clearly turned out to be the better player. Although not all that great in his own right, even.

 

[patman52]

I don't get the point in these kind of threads. I mean, why didn't bb know he was going to switch to a 4-3 and draft a RDE instead of a 3-4 olb twener.
It is like some fans want to wear a hair shirt.

 

[patsfaninpa]

There was this blonde girl I knew at college. Played volleyball. Was dating a girl that I had known for a while. But, knew she wasn't the one. Upon further reflection, shoulda dumped the girl that I knew and dated the blonde volleyball girl

 

[Brady6]

I know a lot of pat's fan were very disappointed we drafted the less talented gator ahead of Dunlap in the 2nd round of the 2010 NFL Draft. 3 years later into their NFL careers, whom would you rather have?

Brace 3-4 LDE
Cunningham 3-4 ROLB
Patrick Chung. Zone/Big Hitter/Enforcer
Brandon Meriweather Zone/Big Hitter/Enforcer

Those 3 players all fall into a category of players I'm hesitant to call busts because they never actually got the opportunity to play the positions they were drafted for. We moved to a 4-3 in 2010 and I don't know that Brace or Cunningham would of been drafted had that been planned at the time. We also moved away from the zone coverage which made it more about coverage and less about trolling around making impact hits which was Merriweather and Chung's draft purpose.

Can you blame the players for not being to adapt? Yes

Can you blame the coaches for not putting these players in the ideal positions to succeed? Yes

McCourty and Deaderick fortunately were able to adjust but they both had difficulties as well.

 

[DocHoliday]

There was this blonde girl I knew at college. Played volleyball. Was dating a girl that I had known for a while. But, knew she wasn't the one. Upon further reflection, shoulda dumped the girl that I knew and dated the blonde volleyball girl

What a mistake man... I can relate.

This one time someone offered me seven grand for my beat up late 90s sports car (thing was a rustbucket inside with a nice paint job). Shoulda taken the money. Coulda bought two more of the same car if I played my cards right. :bricks:

 

[jays52]

I would if the guy was named clay matthews. And who said anything about an overhaul? If you find someone with talent, make SOME changes to fit the player

I could write a thesis on how much Clay Matthews sucks.

 

[Taxed in Maine]

Brace 3-4 LDE
Cunningham 3-4 ROLB
Patrick Chung. Zone/Big Hitter/Enforcer
Brandon Meriweather Zone/Big Hitter/Enforcer

Those 3 players all fall into a category of players I'm hesitant to call busts because they never actually got the opportunity to play the positions they were drafted for. We moved to a 4-3 in 2010 and I don't know that Brace or Cunningham would of been drafted had that been planned at the time. We also moved away from the zone coverage which made it more about coverage and less about trolling around making impact hits which was Merriweather and Chung's draft purpose.

Can you blame the players for not being to adapt? Yes

Can you blame the coaches for not putting these players in the ideal positions to succeed? Yes

McCourty and Deaderick fortunately were able to adjust but they both had difficulties as well.

Not to change topics, but...
Brace drafted to play 3-4DE???? Seriously??

You've got an incurable case of revisionist history.

 

[Brady2Moss]

Classic Belichick thinking he's smarter than everyone else, take the better player instead of the scrub
Inb4 LOL HE IS SMARTER

 

[Brady6]

Not to change topics, but...
Brace drafted to play 3-4DE???? Seriously??

You've got an incurable case of revisionist history.

He played LDE in our 3-4 alignment. Look it up

 

[bagwell368]

No even close, Dunlap with 24 sacks and our guy with 3.5 sacks!

Yeah... Because everyone knows that Cunningham was drafted for one system which he did well in, then converted, and had a lot of trouble. Then last year Cunningham made big strides - BB said so a few times.

So, how are the two players in their situations all that comparable?

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I think we all accept BB is not perfect and that some decisions aren't going to work out. The thing is he makes a ton of choices, and I can imagine half of them working out and half of them not, but I never know which ones will be which.

You can't possibly predict the future, other than to say not every decision will be correct. Look at the 2011 off-season. We get Haynesworth and Ocho, but neither made an impact. But the last-minute scrub signings of Andre Carter and Mark Anderson turned out to be the great ones.

As far as this discussion, it's always easy to look back in time and cherry-pick results, but if you're going to do so, you might as well look at the entire picture and provide proper context. Sure, Cincinnati did "better" in one decision but they also drafted Jermaine Gresham over Rob Gronkowski. And their best draft pick was actually their 4th rounder, Geno Atkins. So it's clear they lucked into and out of a few things as well.

They had a pretty good draft in 2010, but so did we. 4 starters (5 including punter Mesko), 3 of which have been voted to Pro Bowls in McCourty, Gronk, and Hernandez, is a pretty good haul. If we didn't have the best draft that year, we had to be near the top.

With Pro Bowlers like Bowman, Graham, Hernandez, Atkins, and Chancellor all taken in the 4th round or later, you can pretty much point out every team regretting a few picks from this draft. Look at the second round alone. The Ravens took Kindle before all of them. The 49ers took Taylor Mays. The Packers took Mike Neal. The Giants took Linval Joseph. The Seahawks took Golden Tate. These are all very good organizations with very good track records and they all could have done better with their picks. It's clear now we should have drafted Hernandez before Cunningham or Price too.

I don't mind people looking at specific decisions or mistakes. I'm sure BB looks at them constantly to learn from them as well. But it would be nice if there were some context or insights as to why a pick failed rather than pointing out the obvious, which has been pointed out numerous times before. Sometimes I do think people expect perfection, as if the 2007 regular season blinded us to the reality of the NFL. Yes, we missed on a draft pick. So did everyone else. Multiple times. It will happen again. Don't act so surprised when it does.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

No even close, Dunlap with 24 sacks and our guy with 3.5 sacks!

Cunningham was a bad pick no matter how you look at it.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think we all accept BB is not perfect and that some decisions aren't going to work out.

There are a lot of people here who pay lip service to this obvious truth, but then attack anytime someone points out a questionable move.

 

[mcmurtry86]

He played LDE in our 3-4 alignment. Look it up

He wasn't drafted to play LDE.

The primary reason Brace was drafted was a hedge against Wilfork not re-signing. Obviously they thought he would contribute even if Wilfork came back, but I suspect they were thinking of moving to Wilfork to DE (like we saw with Love at NT at times) if Brace panned out at NT.

 

[patman52]

There are a lot of people here who pay lip service to this obvious truth, but then attack anytime someone points out a questionable move.

Attack?

There are also posters who question his every move. For theothers, If they agree with BB why would they not offer a rebuttal? You do understand that this is a site for fans of the team, to expect fans to behave dispassionately is unreasonable. Especially if one consistently expresses negative thoughts, no matter if they are well thought out and reasonable. Think about it as telling someone their mother is fat, every time you see him. While his mother is fat, it is irksome to hear it all the time.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

There are a lot of people here who pay lip service to this obvious truth, but then attack anytime someone points out a questionable move.

Well said.

First of all, I don't think the mistake can be chalked up to scheme change. I do see where people are coming from. However the Pats were in 4-man fronts defending the pass on 50% of their plays in 2010. Having a player who is effective during those 500-odd snaps moving forward is still more desirable than a player who can play 1000 snaps per year but is marginal in the process.

Belichick thought Cunningham was the better player, and he was wrong. There's no shame in that. The distinction people like the OP can't seem to make is that Belichick missing on a player evaluation (something which every GM in the league does, and in most cases more frequently) does not make him an idiot. Cause you guys would hit a home run out there, right? Sergio Kindle would have looked damn good in silver and blue wouldn't he? Instead we got McCourty, Gronkowski, Spikes, Hernandez, plus an extremely good punter in Mesko. What a foolish guy, that Belichick.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

There are a lot of people here who pay lip service to this obvious truth, but then attack anytime someone points out a questionable move.

I don't disagree with this. I think it would be nice to see more balance in certain posts (or perhaps certain posters). And for all I know, you may even consider me to be part of that angry mob

But I do think more balanced posting, while a ridiculous dream, would lead to less of this type of stuff. If there are responses to overly/unfairly negative posts, they'll be overly/unfairly positive in response to point out glaring oversights, and vice versa. It would be better if people posted with a more accurate picture rather than taking one small bit of info and extrapolating it into something it's not. I'd love to see more insights and ideas based on data rather than the usual:

It's one thing to say BB made a mistake. Then again, do we need 500 different topics about the same mistake? Do we need to re-hash it every 2 months? And there's nothing new to contribute, just the same old same old. I just think there's too much extremism on both sides, but studies show people tend to be more negative than positive.

I appreciate a well-thought critique of decisions that is based on information. I love posts where I learn stuff, and I have lots and lots to learn which is why I joined this place in the first place. But enough of people telling me the winning lottery numbers the day after the draw and questioning why I didn't pick them and only got one right. :bricks:

 

[VOODOOZF]

Dunlap has proven to be the better of the two, but you can't be a Monday morning qb on the draft, it's far from an exact science.