Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply, others: come in off the ledge

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply

I respectfully disagree with this statement. The pass to Ocho that was
intercepted should not have been thrown. Brady was pressing for some
reason (put the game away quickly?) and with the exception of Welker and
Gronk, none of his current receivers have a great affinity for getting open.
My point is that Brady treating Ocho/Branch/etc like Welker & Gronk is
foolhardy and leads to problems like we witnessed on Sunday.

And while you say the Gronk interception was the only real bad play should I
assume that the others were just regular bad plays because I kind of
consider all interceptions real bad plays.

And there are guys who have played the game at this level, even on this team, who would disagree with both of you. There are also countless players who have played the QB position who while agreeing that interceptions are generally real bad plays, will tell you that some of them are simple flukes and others are which are seeming avoidable in hindsight are due to circumstances beyond even the elite QB's ability to predetermine or control because they are making a lot of throws in anticipation of a receiver coming out of his breaks sharply or adjusting/not adjusting his route based on coverage...

The exact same pass to Gronk in the same coverage led to a TD earlier in the game. The only difference this time was Gronk drifted a bit on the route and that allowed the DB to be in better position to make what was still quite a nice play the second time around after Gronk had made a great play on a difficult throw and catch against coverage the first time around. Great QB's are expected to throw against tight coverage with above average success. Above average receivers are expected to make the catch. When average QB's attempt to do it or above average receivers are involved it's usually ill advised to attempt the throw because someone in the mix isn't good enough to suceed more often than not.

What would have been Fitz's third and most egregious INT of the day went by the boards only because a young DB made a rookie starters mistake away from the ball... That throw was mindnumbingly foolish though...and deserved to be picked with full blame on the QB.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply

Here's a sampling Pass attempts vs run....Team has NEVER had with Brady at helm a 60-40 ratio, including the insane 2007 year, and thru 2nd and 3rd SB year

2002: 59.5% Pass, 39.5% run
2003: 53% Pass, 47% run
2004: 48% Pass, 51% run
2005: 56% Pass, 44% run
2006: 51% Pass, 49% run
2007: 57% Pass, 43% run
2008: 51% Pass, 49% run (non Brady Year)
2009: 56% Pass, 44% run
2010: 53% Pass, 47% run
2011: 65% Pass, 35% run (3 games into season)

This lunacy in 2011 is completely on the coaching staff especially playing with leads establish a ground game for ball control.

BOB is going to get Brady killed with hits or injured at this rate

I read last night that the ratio so far this year is more like 80% pass, 20% run.

 

[goheels22002]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply

And there are guys who have played the game at this level, even on this team, who would disagree with both of you. There are also countless players who have played the QB position who while agreeing that interceptions are generally real bad plays, will tell you that some of them are simple flukes and others are which are seeming avoidable in hindsight are due to circumstances beyond even the elite QB's ability to predetermine or control because they are making a lot of throws in anticipation of a receiver coming out of his breaks sharply or adjusting/not adjusting his route based on coverage...

The exact same pass to Gronk in the same coverage led to a TD earlier in the game. The only difference this time was Gronk drifted a bit on the route and that allowed the DB to be in better position to make what was still quite a nice play the second time around after Gronk had made a great play on a difficult throw and catch against coverage the first time around. Great QB's are expected to throw against tight coverage with above average success. Above average receivers are expected to make the catch. When average QB's attempt to do it or above average receivers are involved it's usually ill advised to attempt the throw because someone in the mix isn't good enough to suceed more often than not.

What would have been Fitz's third and most egregious INT of the day went by the boards only because a young DB made a rookie starters mistake away from the ball... That throw was mindnumbingly foolish though...and deserved to be picked with full blame on the QB.

I agree with your comparison to other passes Brady threw in that game. The 85 interception came out of Brady's hands before 85 was out of his break. It looked like a lazy route with the DB being more aggressive and quicker to the ball. 85 has to be in the right place in this offense and understand the adjustments after his first cut. It doesn't look that way so far.

We're spoiled with Welker and Branch in these short and medium routes in the flat - both crisp and very hard to the ball. Against Buffalo, Branch was double covered a lot, suggesting that the Bills decided to let Welker have the underneath stuff (big time) and make 85 prove he could beat them, He did once but dropped the ball.

The Woodhead interception was a two-man deal. Brady threw the ball a little high and behind Woodhead, but Woodhead could have pulled it into his body and toward the ground instead of deflecting it up and into play for the defense. That was a tough one, but as you say, both guys tried their best.

 

[D-Money]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply, others: come in off the l

This team is too finesse. I said the word.I want an offensive line thats tough and run the football with authority.Its not helping also thet they arent getting production from the wrs on the outside.Its basically Wes Welker and the TEs.I am not a fan of that offense.You aint going far if ur offense consist of only that.

 

[Bonzo]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply, others: come in off the l

Didn't read all 13 pages, so don't know if this has been discussed yet . . . but it seems the Patriots schedule is (mercifully) getting easier by the day.

- So much for the "murderer's row" that the NFC East was supposed to be and for that Dream Team in Philly.

- Pittsburgh can't run the ball, Roethlisberger has looked inconsistent at best, and their D looks old.

- What happened KC? From playoffs to the undisputed worst team in football.

- Doubt we'll see Manning on Dec 4.

- Yeah, division match-ups are always tough, but the Jets look overhyped (again) and their D is not nearly as good as they think it is. Plus, Sanchez is still Sanchez. Miami put up a good fight on opening day, but they are on the brink of implosion at the moment. Buffalo is a good-looking team and a nice story, but the Pats gave them everything they could handle in Buffalo even with the 4 picks.

The point being: I expect the defense will be given every opportunity to develop. Yeah, there will be knuckleheaded performances like at Buffalo (and Cleveland last year), but more often than not Brady and the offense will be able to carry the day. The AFC is down this year and will be ripe for the taking.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply, others: come in off the l

Enjoyed the thread Ian.

Despite the short comings on defense I think this team is still a top 5 team in this league. I really haven't seen much from any other defense in this league that leads me to believe that elite is even possible right now with all the rules helping out the receivers. Yes there are teams with defenses that are alot better than ours but none that our offense couldn't manhandle.

I really thought the defense was getting on track in that first half last Sunday and then it all came crashing down. But I'm sure they can play better. The safety position although extremely thin was missing Chung as well as CB Dowling. I'm hoping Haynesworth will add some fire this week as well.

Honestly after calming down and seeing things for what they are I believe we are going to clobber this Raider team in a bad way by atleast 2 td's.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply

The Woodhead interception was a two-man deal. Brady threw the ball a little high and behind Woodhead, but Woodhead could have pulled it into his body and toward the ground instead of deflecting it up and into play for the defense. That was a tough one, but as you say, both guys tried their best.

This play has been gnawing at my insides all week long, because it was the first event of the game
that turned the tide of victory into the swamp of defeat.

There are 3 poss. explanations for the INT:
a - Brady should have thrown to Woody's inside shoulder, but threw to his outside shoulder instead;
b - Woody should have turned to his outside, but turned to his inside instead;
Or c - Brady & Woody were both on the same page, but Tom simply made a bad throw.

In defense of Brady, he seems to always throw to his WRs' outside shoulder so that the WR's body
is btwn the defender & the football. He & Welker have pretty much perfected this pattern.

In defense of the Sherrif, however, as a receiver out of the backfield instead of the LOS or slot,
he would already be heading upfield before the catch, and would have more opportunity to elude a defender
after the catch, ass-uming that the ball was thrown quickly enough before the defender's arrival.
Forcing him to make the catch on his outside shoulder causes him to turn away from the defenders,
therefore negating the advantage of using a RB instead of a WR.
In fact, that very same play occurred on 3rd/4 inside the 10 during the 3rd qtr, and the result was...
a 2-yd gain, and a loss of an extra 4 pts. But that entire sequence is a story for another thread.

So what seems the likely scenario:
The play was designed for the inside shoulder but Brady forgot,
or the play was designed for the outside shoulder but Woody forgot,
or that Tom simply made a bad throw?

 

[robbomango]

Re: Rational Thoughts - Only like minded people need apply

This play has been gnawing at my insides all week long, because it was the first event of the game
that turned the tide of victory into the swamp of defeat.

There are 3 poss. explanations for the INT:
a - Brady should have thrown to Woody's inside shoulder, but threw to his outside shoulder instead;
b - Woody should have turned to his outside, but turned to his inside instead;
Or c - Brady & Woody were both on the same page, but Tom simply made a bad throw.

In defense of Brady, he seems to always throw to his WRs' outside shoulder so that the WR's body
is btwn the defender & the football. He & Welker have pretty much perfected this pattern.

In defense of the Sherrif, however, as a receiver out of the backfield instead of the LOS or slot,
he would already be heading upfield before the catch, and would have more opportunity to elude a defender
after the catch, ass-uming that the ball was thrown quickly enough before the defender's arrival.
Forcing him to make the catch on his outside shoulder causes him to turn away from the defenders,
therefore negating the advantage of using a RB instead of a WR.
In fact, that very same play occurred on 3rd/4 inside the 10 during the 3rd qtr, and the result was...
a 2-yd gain, and a loss of an extra 4 pts. But that entire sequence is a story for another thread.

So what seems the likely scenario:
The play was designed for the inside shoulder but Brady forgot,
or the play was designed for the outside shoulder but Woody forgot,
or that Tom simply made a bad throw?

if woodhead hadn't tipped the ball it'd be an incomplete pass. Everything falls on the QB i guess, no one shares the blame. throwing and catching is a 2 party job, they both botched it imo.