Prediction: The Pats' Pass Defense is About to Go From Terrible to Very Good

[manxman2601]

Since it seems BB has a hard time picking DB's, i agree, free agency is our best option.

Steve. Gregory.

 

[mayoclinic]

Steve. Gregory.

Leigh Bodden did ok as a FA in 2009, before getting hurt.

 

[Finnishfan]

Personally I wonder whether it makes sense in today's NFL to have 2 guys with "FS" kind of skills as opposed to more of a traditional FS/SS mix. You need to be able to tackle and to support the run, but ball skills and coverage ability seem to be more of a priority than traditional SS skills. I love Elam's instincts, but the idea of an Amerson/McCourty pairing is also very appealing.

But then again, I'm personally not wild about spending a top draft pick on the secondary once again.

The biggest benefit of having a true SS on the roster is the ability to move him around and do different things with him. A talented SS is usually good on man coverage, zone coverage, run defense and blitz, but hasn't perfected any of those skills. A talented FS on the other hand has perfected his zone coverage skills but is average on other aspects.

I'm a firm believer on "win through versatility" which is what BB also likes as we know. Therefore I would not move to 2 FS.

Especially in a time when defenses are adopting our style hurry-up offense and you need more and more versatility on defense to keep up with some of the personnel groupings that can deploy a lot of different formations and run a full playbook worth of different plays.

 

[jnug]

True enough, the NFL may be going back at some point to less specialized defenses, keeping guys on the field more often in light of all the hurry up, no huddle offenses they face.

 

[captain stone]

Steve. Gregory.

Thank. You.

It boggles my mind that Bill was willing to sign dime-a-dozen JAGs Gregory & Jimmy Sanders
to 3 year/$10M contracts, yet was unwilling to sign Dashon Goldson to a 1 year/$2M contract
for 2011 with the inside track for a possible extension.

The fact still remains that by his moving from CB to FS, McCourty has become our best Safety;
Chung is worth only a vet minimum contract next year, with zero guaranteed;
Gregory needs to either re-structure his bloated contract, or be gone;
The over-drafted Tavon Wilson is a dime back, at best;
and Nate Ebner will likely never develop the instincts needed to play an NFL-level last line of defense.

McCourty & Wilson are keepers, Ebner belongs on the PS, and Chung & Gregory belong on the street.

 

[doesntmatter1]

I am kind of excited to see what goes on with our secondary this year and next year. McCourty is a pretty good cb but he may be a year in year out probowl safety. Also, McCourty is a little different from any other safety we have had back there if memory serves me right. He seems to take the phrase last line of defense to heart. It feels as if he is completely unwilling to fall for play action and i can respect that even though our run defense takes a slight hit.

Now Chung. First of all he doesn't play enough for me to have any loyalty to him so there's that. He has good parts to his game but we don't utilize them so we should just let him go. He has no business patrolling the deep part of the field because he doesn't actually help anyone ever. And even when it seems he is on time with those hits on deep passes the receiver usually holds on. The infamous jake ballard catch sums up chung to me.

Steve Gregory. Coverage not too bad but he misses more tackles than merriweather and thats pretty scary.

Arrington. He is interesting to me. He is a physical special teams demon that can stick with most receivers. I honestly think his main problem is that he has not been tested enough. He has tight coverage and qbs usually go somewhere else but they have gone after him deep no matter how close he is and he just needs to make it through this rough patch till he learns to play the ball. If he adjusts to deep balls like i think he will i think we should resign him.

Our linebackers are the main problem when it comes to coverage. Spikes has the best feel for zone coverage but he doesn't have enough foot speed for man and mayo just seems to lack instincts in coverage altogether but it is slightly mitigated by his extremely consistent tackling. In a 4-3 lineup for coverage strictly, I truly believe a lineup of tracy white, spikes in the middle, and dane fletcher would be the best we could field.

Come draft time i would love it if we could pick up coverage lb sean porter and at least 1 of jonthan banks, logan ryan, or matt elam. Then I would let things shake out in training camp and also see if dowling has a future with us.

ps. I didn't mention talib and rookies etc because i am still evaluating them.

 

[coolguy]

Alfonzo Dennard and talib have repaired the secondary overnight.

I'm sorry for ever doubting bill belichick and his staff...The defense is playing with the fire they haven't had since 2004 :rocker:

 

[RobertWeathers]

Alfonzo Dennard and talib have repaired the secondary overnight.

I'm sorry for ever doubting bill belichick's and his staff...The is playing with the fire they haven't had since 2004 :rocker:

I know he played but I didn't see Talib all night. Only time I heard his name was when Michaels and Collinsworth brought it up.

IMO, thats a VERY good sign.

 

[mayoclinic]

Alfonzo Dennard and talib have repaired the secondary overnight.

I'm sorry for ever doubting bill belichick's and his staff...The is playing with the fire they haven't had since 2004 :rocker:

There's a lot of work to be done. But I think the pass defense is already somewhat improved, and there's a solid plan to work with, which was pretty much the one outlined in the OP - Talib/Dennard outside, McCourty at FS. And with a structure in place, even Gregory and Arrington seem to be playing better.

Hopefully over the next 5 games things will get still better. But I do feel reasonably optimistic that the Pats can go into the playoffs with more than toilet paper as a pass defense.

 

[coolguy]

There's a lot of work to be done. But I think the pass defense is already somewhat improved, and there's a solid plan to work with, which was pretty much the one outlined in the OP - Talib/Dennard outside, McCourty at FS. And with a structure in place, even Gregory and Arrington seem to be playing better.

Hopefully over the next 5 games things will get still better. But I do feel reasonably optimistic that the Pats can go into the playoffs with more than toilet paper as a pass defense.

You want to know how good the secondary is? Chung can't even get on the field .

Dennard is locking down recievers better than McCourty ever has.............AND Dennard IS A FREAKING BALLHAWK :rocker:

This is the most depth the secondary has had in a long time.

 

[cardiak]

This defense is looking promising, just like last year they are slowly coming together as the year progresses. Just think what it will look like next year if BB uses our top picks for DB help or gets a top DB from FA. No team can match our offensive output and if our defense can be middle of the pack or better... watchout!

 

[mgteich]

What a truly strange idea. Yesterday, we had ZERO depth at corner in case of injury.

This is the most depth the secondary has had in a long time.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that there is lots of work to be done, but there is already much improvement. This unit is still our weakness (every team has one after all).

BTW, I think that you greatly under-appreciate Gregory and Arrington. Gregory is a fine safety. Arrington is a solid nickel/slot back. As patchick has pointed out, adding Talib improved several positions.

MUCH BETTER THAN 2011
outside; Dennard, Talib
slot: Arrington
dime: Wilson (or Cole)
safety: Gregory, McCourty
backup safeties: Wilson
emergency backups: Cole, Chung, Ebner, Martin

BOTTOM LINE

Acquisitions are paying off: Dennard, Talib and Cole at corner; Gregory and Wilson at safety; Ebner as a special teamer.

Having one or two additions making contributions would have been fine. Having SIX additions contributing is unbelievable. All we have left from 2011 is McCourty, Arrington and Chung, with none of these players in their 2011 roles.

There is a long way to go to have this secondary be a strength. However, revamping the entire secondary in one year, and having it anywhere near acceptable, is truly amazing.

There's a lot of work to be done. But I think the pass defense is already somewhat improved, and there's a solid plan to work with, which was pretty much the one outlined in the OP - Talib/Dennard outside, McCourty at FS. And with a structure in place, even Gregory and Arrington seem to be playing better.

Hopefully over the next 5 games things will get still better. But I do feel reasonably optimistic that the Pats can go into the playoffs with more than toilet paper as a pass defense.

 

[Marqui]

Having McCourty's high football IQ back at safety looks like it's making a huge difference. You always see him communicating with the DBs and I haven't seen any blown coverages in the last 2 games.

 

[Deus Irae]

...BTW, I think that you greatly under-appreciate Gregory and Arrington. Gregory is a fine safety...

No, he's not.

 

[mayoclinic]

No, he's not.

I agree with MgT that both Gregory and Arrington have benefitted from having their roles changes and playing within the context of a more clearly defined secondary. I disagree that either is in and of themselves anything special as a player. Both played well last night, and I'll be happy if either or both can continue to be productive within the context of the overall scheme of things. But neither one is a player that I would in any way build around as a foundation of my defensive backfield. If they can produce within context, great. If not, find someone else who can.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree with MgT that both Gregory and Arrington have benefitted from having their roles changes and playing within the context of a more clearly defined secondary. I disagree that either is in and of themselves anything special as a player. Both played well last night, and I'll be happy if either or both can continue to be productive within the context of the overall scheme of things. But neither one is a player that I would in any way build around as a foundation of my defensive backfield. If they can produce within context, great. If not, find someone else who can.

Gregory's an S3. He's not a great cover guy and he's not a great hitter. He had a nice night yesterday, where Sanchez made a bonehead throw and the ball was falling right for the Patriots. What happens in games like this is that the winning fan base reads too much good into things, and the losing fan base reads too much bad into things.

Now, it's very true that the Jets suck. I also think that having Dennard, Talib and McCourty where they are is a step in the right direction. However, it's not as if the Patriots were shutting down that Jets offense yesterday, outside of the turnovers, and the Jets weren't only moving the ball during the garbage time. On two of their first three drives, the Jets moved the ball into scoring position before blowing it with turnovers:

The second Jets drive of the game, with the score still 0-0, saw the Jets move the ball from their 35 to the NE 23 before Sanchez brainlocked and threw that pick.

The next Jets drive, with the score now 7-0, saw the Jets move the ball from their 32 to the Patriots 42, before Greene fumbled the ball away.

That led to the Vereen pass, the butt tackle, the Edelman recovery and the end of the game, for all intents and purposes.

Yes, the Patriots rolled the Jets. Yes, it was great to watch, much like the 45-3 game. But, much like that 45-3 game, this was a game where the difference, when the game was still in doubt, was as much about Jets screwups as it was about great play by the Patriots.

 

[mayoclinic]

Gregory's an S3. He's not a great cover guy and he's not a great hitter. He had a nice night yesterday, where Sanchez made a bonehead throw and the ball was falling right for the Patriots. What happens in games like this is that the winning fan base reads too much good into things, and the losing fan base reads too much bad into things.

Now, it's very true that the Jets suck. However, it's not as if the Patriots were shutting down that Jets offense yesterday, outside of the turnovers, and the Jets weren't only moving the ball during the garbage time. On two of their first three drives, the Jets moved the ball into scoring position before blowing it with turnovers:

The second Jets drive of the game, with the score still 0-0, saw the Jets move the ball from their 35 to the NE 23 before Sanchez brainlocked and threw that pick.

The next Jets drive, with the score now 7-0, saw the Jets move the ball from their 32 to the Patriots 42, before Greene fumbled the ball away.

That led to the Vereen pass, the butt tackle, the Edelman recovery and the end of the game, for all intents and purposes.

Yes, the Patriots rolled the Jets. Yes, it was great to watch, much like the 45-3 game. But, much like that 45-3 game, this was a game where the difference, when the game was still in doubt, was as much about Jets screwups as it was about great play by the Patriots.

I don't disagree with any of the above. I wasn't crowing about the secondary play last night - it was better than over the first 9 games, but not especially great. My take, as stated above, was cautiously optimistic:

There's a lot of work to be done. But I think the pass defense is already somewhat improved, and there's a solid plan to work with.

I think that's reasonable for now. McCourty at FS with Talib/Dennard outside seems to be the backbone of the "new" secondary. The hemorrhaging seems less, there seems to be more aggressive contesting of passes and less soft zone coverage with sloppy tackling and playing scared of being beaten deep. It looks something like an NFL secondary. But there's a lot of work to be done, and I'm not patting myself on the back or declaring victory in any sense that the pass defense has been "fixed". It's a start.

 

[PatsDeb]

I don't disagree with any of the above. I wasn't crowing about the secondary play last night - it was better than over the first 9 games, but not especially great. My take, as stated above, was cautiously optimistic:



I think that's reasonable for now. McCourty at FS with Talib/Dennard outside seems to be the backbone of the "new" secondary. The hemorrhaging seems less, there seems to be more aggressive contesting of passes and less soft zone coverage with sloppy tackling and playing scared of being beaten deep. It looks something like an NFL secondary. But there's a lot of work to be done, and I'm not patting myself on the back or declaring victory in any sense that the pass defense has been "fixed". It's a start.

It's definitely encouraging, but we haven't faced a really good QB with this combo, and won't next week either. There's something to be said for having a few games to get in sync though. It would be great if these guys could do what they did last night against Houston and San Fran.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't disagree with any of the above. I wasn't crowing about the secondary play last night - it was better than over the first 9 games, but not especially great. My take, as stated above, was cautiously optimistic:



I think that's reasonable for now. McCourty at FS with Talib/Dennard outside seems to be the backbone of the "new" secondary. The hemorrhaging seems less, there seems to be more aggressive contesting of passes and less soft zone coverage with sloppy tackling and playing scared of being beaten deep. It looks something like an NFL secondary. But there's a lot of work to be done, and I'm not patting myself on the back or declaring victory in any sense that the pass defense has been "fixed". It's a start.

I hear you, and I'm sorry if it seemed as if I was attacking your position. I was mainly trying to explain my point about Gregory (I'm just not going to start shining Gregory's shoes after he had an Arrington 2011 type of game.), and it led me to breaking down the start of the game. I see improvement, even if that improvement is more about being competitive than it is winning the battles.

I will say this, though, as an unfortunate counterweight to my general feeling of an improved secondary.... Wilson really sucks in coverage. He's just a rookie, and he can certainly improve but, so far, he looks like a really poor man's Patrick Chung.