Pioli's Last 2 Drafts have been Horrible!

[Rob0729]

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with your assessment especially
with regard to the 2007 draft. Forgetting the trades, the Pats drafted nine players and only one remains on the 53 man roster. That is a pretty lousy
draft. By contrast, eight of nine draft choices made the Colts with one
on IR. Seven of ten players from 2008 made the team, but only three
players contribute on a regular basis (Maroney,Gostowski and Andrews). O'Callaghan is a backup, Jackson plays a little on special teams, Smith inactive, and Thomas on IR. Not super production from 2006.
The problem with a couple of below average drafts occur a few years
down the road. Who have the Pats drafted to replace Samuel, Gay, Seau,
Bruschi, Gaffney, Moss, and Stallworth should they leave the team?

Come on! The Pats had nine draft picks this year and six of them were drafted in the sixth and seventh round. What a shocker that most of them got cut especially on a team without tons of holes. I always said if you can't draft sixth and seventh rounder who can't make the team, you have no business drafting.

As for the Colts, they had six picks in the first four rounds and only one pick in the sixth or seventh round this past draft. That means that the Colts drafted eight times before we made our third pick. They draft four times before we made our second pick this year.

People really need to look at the facts before they make statements like these.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I don't see anything wrong with bringing up these 2 drafts and even being critical of them if you chose. But you look at each player in the worst possible light. Troy Brown was cut his 1st year so he would have been a stiff. Tedy Bruschi was just a ST player so he would have been a jag. And if you did this in Tom Brady's 2nd year before Bledslow got hurt he'd have been a stiff too by your ratings. That's probably why no one believes your a sports advisor to anyone.

 

[He Ban Me]

Come on! The Pats had nine draft picks this year and six of them were drafted in the sixth and seventh round. What a shocker that most of them got cut especially on a team without tons of holes. I always said if you can't draft sixth and seventh rounder who can't make the team, you have no business drafting.

As for the Colts, they had six picks in the first four rounds and only one pick in the sixth or seventh round this past draft. That means that the Colts drafted eight times before we made our third pick. They draft four times before we made our second pick this year.

People really need to look at the facts before they make statements like these.

LOL, this is great, thanks for pointing this out. I was estatic last year before the draft. Comp picks in 3,4, and 5 were a real boon. The 2nd rounder (Ugoh), came at a price (no 1st rounder in '08). The nice thing is, we will pick up a few more comp picks this season, although, I don't suspect they will be quite as high on the draft board (don't know all the rules, but I think the picks are based on the lost players' performance in '07).

8 picks in rounds 1-5, and 1 7th rounder. BUT, how about those UDFA pick ups?? Ed Johnson anyone? Kenton Keith?

Great 2 year run for Polian and Company. Not to mention all the big first round hits through the years.

 

[NE39]

I think this year's draft was his best ever.

Getting Randy Moss and Wes Welker? I can't think of two bigger impact players to come out of this draft. And then you factor in dealing a late 1st for a likely top-10 pick and it is off the charts.

 

[Deus Irae]

David Thomas was an unfortunate loss. Are Oscar Lua and Mike Richardson

key draftees? Do most of the Colts draftees make their team every year

because they are a lousy team?

It is a fact that the Pats have not drafted as well as some of the other

teams the past couple of years. Fortunately, they have made up for this

by trading picks for known quantities and signing key free agents. The

down side to this is most of the wide receiver acquisitions are for one

year. The Patriots have ransomed some of the future for success today.

As one of the older members of the forum agewise , I look forward to

another Superbowl trophy.

Please show the proof of this "fact".

 

[ATippett56]

Yes, I completely disagree with each of his points listed. Exactly what do you want me to do?

Create an assclown forum and exile him!

 

[ClevTrev]

Well, it's official. NSA has been outed as a troll. Doesn't have the guts to come to this forum as a fan of another team. Any further replies to any of his threads or posts are a waste of time.

 

[shmessy]

Create an assclown forum and exile him!

Because you don't agree with his argument?

 

[Deus Irae]

Create an assclown forum and exile him!

Why do that? People can just put him on ignore. I think he's ridiculous, and his next salient point will likely be his first, but he's no worse than those who are agreeing with him. It's simply exposed the foolishness of the Chicken Little crowd, nothing more.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

LOL, this is great, thanks for pointing this out. I was estatic last year before the draft. Comp picks in 3,4, and 5 were a real boon. The 2nd rounder (Ugoh), came at a price (no 1st rounder in '08). The nice thing is, we will pick up a few more comp picks this season, although, I don't suspect they will be quite as high on the draft board (don't know all the rules, but I think the picks are based on the lost players' performance in '07).

Actually, the primary criterion is the average annual value of the contract. Performance counts, but primarily for borderline cases (e.g., the highest 5th might become the lowest 4th).

The other important rules are (1) there has to be a net loss of FAs from the team; (2) players who are released don't count (I presume Stallworth would not count if he left, but Moss and Samuel would), and (3) there is a fixed limit of 32 comp picks, so if there's a ton of movement, only the teams that lose the premier FAs will be compensated.

There's more to it than that, but that'll do in a pinch.

 

[He Ban Me]

Actually, the primary criterion is the average annual value of the contract. Performance counts, but primarily for borderline cases (e.g., the highest 5th might become the lowest 4th).

The other important rules are (1) there has to be a net loss of FAs from the team; (2) players who are released don't count (I presume Stallworth would not count if he left, but Moss and Samuel would), and (3) there is a fixed limit of 32 comp picks, so if there's a ton of movement, only the teams that lose the premier FAs will be compensated.

There's more to it than that, but that'll do in a pinch.

Oh, sweet, thanks for that!

So,

1.) The contract that the LOST player signs with the NEW team plays a large role.
2.) If you pick up more FA's than you lose, then no go. Does this include UDFAs?? I assume not.
3.) I assume you are talking about players "released", you mean off season guys, like Stokely for Colts, I know we didn't/won't get anything for him.
4.) Limit makes sense too. 32 total for the entire draft? Do they give the worst teams preference (sounds like they don't). Are you saying it is solely based on contract signed by the lost player? Presumably, the bigger the contract, the more value lost, thus the better compensation.


This is interesting (point 2). From a Colts perspective, perhaps this is another reason (besides being burned by the Simon deal) for them to NOT sign FA's? Certainly, you don't get immediate help, but you can stockpile for the future.

At this point, I am going to assume we will receive picks for:

June
Harper
Rhodes
(Received a pick for Harper in the '07 draft, I forget the exact reason why)

thanks again.

Edit:

keep forgetting about Mike Doss. IIRC, we did NOT cut him, but he was signed by the Vikes

 

[ATippett56]

Because you don't agree with his argument?

No because he's so negative about this year's Patriots. Why can't some people sit back and enjoy this season as opposed to nitpick practically every player on the roster?

 

[NE_PATS_FAN_54]

Look at Mr. Pioli's superb drafts the last 2 years..........NOT!!! This guy is in a MAJOR SLUMP with our draft picks, my friends. It is Bobby Grier-esque!! We better keep trading draft picks away for the Randy Moss's and Wes Welker's of the world, because we will most likely draft STIFFS if we keep the picks!! You can make excuses all you want folks, but these last two drafts are HORRIBLE. Good thing we lost a #1 pick for spygate. Otherwise, we would just draft another guy that will make NO CONTRIBUTION whatsoever for the first 2 years of their career like Chad Jackson. Ugh!!

2006 NFL DRAFT
1 21 (21) Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota(DUD)
2 4-d (36) Chad Jackson, WR, Florida(BUST)
3 22 (86) David Thomas, TE, Texas(STIFF)
4 9-b (106) Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa(STIFF)
4 21 (118) Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis(GOOD)
5 3-c (136) Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California(JAG)
6 22-* (191) Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida(STIFF)
6 36-* (205) Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame(STIFF)
6 37 (206) Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska(STIFF)
7 21 (209) Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor(JAG)

2007 NFL DRAFT
1 24 (24) Brandon Meriweather S Miami (FL)(JURY OUT)
4 28 (127) Kareem Brown DT Miami (FL)(CUT)
5* 34 (171) Clint Oldenburg OL Colorado State University(JAG)
6 6 (180) Justin Rogers DE Southern Methodist University(JAG)
6 28 (202) Mike Richardson CB Notre Dame(IR)
6* 34 (208) Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State(BUM)
6* 35 (209) Corey Hilliard T Oklahoma State(BUM)
7 1 (211) Oscar Lua ILB USC(BUM)
7* 37 (247) Mike Elgin OL University of Iowa(BUM)

jury is still out on 06 draft. maroney and jackson havent shown anything yet, but i'm still upbeat on them both. o'callaghan has proved he can be an adequate NFL lineman. thomas is solid.

clearly the 07 draft in general was awful, as for the pats its pretty much all merriweather at this point with brown cut today. u still forgot to throw in randy moss, welker, and the top 10 draft pick for this year in there for the 07 draft too.

 

[outhere]

I'm wondering if we took 7 players in the bottom half of the first round last draft how many of them would've stuck anyway? Maybe half? Maybe less?

 

[pats-blue]

Do most of the Colts draftees make their team every year

because they are a lousy team?

No they make the Colts because of TWO things.

First like another poster said the Pats had nine draft picks this year and six of them were drafted in the sixth and seventh round. The Colts had six picks in the first four rounds and only one pick in the sixth or seventh round this past draft.


So considering the Pats depth is one of its greatests assets, how do 6 6th and 7th round picks make a Pats team in any draft?

Considering the biggest knock ON the Colts IS their lack of depth and the FACT they had 6 picks in the first 4 rounds I would hope they get a few to stick.

Sorry our 3rd and 4th stringers are better than 6th and lower round picks....please think before you post.

 

[DaBruinz]

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with your assessment especially
with regard to the 2007 draft. Forgetting the trades, the Pats drafted nine players and only one remains on the 53 man roster. That is a pretty lousy
draft. By contrast, eight of nine draft choices made the Colts with one
on IR. Seven of ten players from 2008 made the team, but only three
players contribute on a regular basis (Maroney,Gostowski and Andrews). O'Callaghan is a backup, Jackson plays a little on special teams, Smith inactive, and Thomas on IR. Not super production from 2006.
The problem with a couple of below average drafts occur a few years
down the road. Who have the Pats drafted to replace Samuel, Gay, Seau,
Bruschi, Gaffney, Moss, and Stallworth should they leave the team?

If you are going to talk about how many players made the Colts, why don't you also mention how many HOLES the Colts had to fill because of players they lost? The Pats lost 3 players and added 6.. So, what is the likelyhood that more than a one player in a weak draft class is going to make the team?

 

[DaBruinz]

You have the cause and effect backwards here.

CJ isn't doing well because the are 4 vets in front of him: FALSE

There are 4 vets in front of him because CJ is not doing well: True

Sorry, but YOU are the one who has it backwards. The only vet of Moss, Stallworth, Welker and Gaffney that Jackson had a chance at supplanting was Gaffney. And Jackson was on the PUP. Because the Pats decided that it was better to ensure that his hamstrings were healthy instead of rushing him and possible injuring him even worse.

 

[DaBruinz]

I have a different take on the Patriots 2006 NFL Draft:

1 21 (21) Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota (Jury Out)
2 4-d (36) Chad Jackson, WR, Florida (Jury Out)
3 22 (86) David Thomas, TE, Texas (Jury Out)
4 9-b (106) Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa (Should have drafted a linebacker instead)
4 21 (118) Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis (Not Bad)
5 3-c (136) Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California (Backup OL)
6 22-* (191) Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida (Bust)
6 36-* (205) Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame (Bust)
6 37 (206) Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska (Jury Out)
7 21 (209) Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor (Special Teamer)

The only truly questionable selection was Garrett Mills in the fourth round. Linebackers Leon Williams or Tim Dobbins would have been a better choice.

How would they have been better choices? What are they doing in 3-4 2 Gap systems that make you believe that they would have been better choices?

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't think the drafts have been very good. In a large part this was because the roster was very talented and it is difficult for a rookie to take a productive veterans spot. But I agree with Jimke that the real price will be paid in 2008 and 2009 when there is less available cap space.

You really should know more about the cap before you go stating that there will be less available cap space.

1) Miguel has said that the 2008 cap is probably going to be going UP since there is an excess of cap room around the league.
2) The Pats have some 3 million that they can push into next year to help cover NLTBE bonuses.
3) Off the top of my head, the Pats can free up 10 million by not picking up the options on Washington and Stallworth. Hell, they can re-do both contracts to spread the hit out over the last few years of the contract.
4) The Pats can free up more money by giving Colvin an extension and spreading out his money.
5) My guess is that the Pats will have some 20 million to work with. Which is what they had this year and they didn't use it all. And that is AFTER giving Ty Warren an extension. And signing Samuel to the Franchise Tender.

2008 looks to be a rebuilding year on defense, the following players are free agents. Some are starters, some are quality depth but they all have roster spots and all will cost money to keep / replace. BOLD are key players.
http://www.patscap.com/patsfreeagency.html
Tedy Bruschi, LB
Jabar Gaffney, WR
Randall Gay, CB
Larry Izzo, LB
Randy Moss, WR
Mel Mitchell, S
Lonie Paxton, LS
Asante Samuel, CB
Junior Seau, LB
Chad Scott, CB
Eugene Wilson, S

I don't mind, the offense will still kick butt and it will be nice to see some fresh blood. This is natures way of keeping things equal. Can I hear a 19-0? Hell ya.

Gay won't command that much money. Neither will Paxton. It will be interesting to see what the Pats do with Wilson. I expect Moss to re-sign with the Pats for good money.

The real question will be at ILB and with Samuel. Bruschi may return for one more season, but I think that Seau might call it quits if he gets his ring. It will be interesting to see if the Pats draft someone or if they sweet talk Dansby into coming over to the dark side *lol*

Draft research
Without a lot of research I tried to compare the draft impact of the 4 teams that made it as far as the Pats in 2006. My gut feel is that all of them have received more production than the Patriots, we can look back in a couple of years to see if this is still the case. The data backs me up.
Bears - 14/16 still on team*
Colts - 16/16 still on team*
Saints - 11/15 still on team*
Patriots - 10/19 still on team*

*on team includes Practice Squad and IR

Data sources
- NFL Rosters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_team_rosters
- roster breakdown spreadsheet - http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pXWJyKsM-8kvHu8crrTkUZA

Bears - 2 years ago, they were junk.
Colts - Regularly let people go and have lots of holes to fill year in and year out
Saints - See Bears
Patriots - have been at the top of the league for 5 years running now and 6 of 7. Over that time, they've accumulated talent from Free Agency and from previous drafts.

There are only 53 spots and 8 practice squad spots. When you go into the draft NOT NEEDING to draft players, you can take flyers on people like Oldenburg, Rogers, Lua and Richardson.

Also, lets not forget that the Pats tried to sneak Rogers onto their practice squad and the Cowboys picked him up off waivers.

 

[loosebearing]

A team is made up from draft picks, udfa’s, restricted free agents, unrestricted free agents, and trades. One should not look at just one of these areas to judge the team management but at all 5 together. And all of which have to come in under the salary cap. The more free cap space, the more veterans that can be acquired and the less draft picks and udfa’s that will make the team.

The Beoli team has replaced 22 of the 53 man roster in the two years in question of this thread (2006 and 2007)

Kyle Brady
Randy Moss
Donte Stallworth
Wes Welker
Kelley Washington
Jabar Gaffney
Chad Jackson
Lawrence Maroney
Kyle Eckel
Matt Gutierrez
Le Kevin Smith
Kareem Brown (until yesterday)
Adalius Thomas
Pierre Woods
Junior Seau
Brandon Meriweather
Mel Mitchell
Rashad Baker
Eddie Jackson
Steve Gostkowski
Chris Hansen

Plus there are two valuable players on IR

Sammy Morris
Dave Thomas

42% of an 11 - 0 team have been acquired in 2006 and 2007

Plus ½ of the 22 players are veterans. Cap management allowed this high competition of veterans vs. rookies.

Not to mention the Patriots have also gained two extra picks in next years draft - a low first round and a low third round,

Looking at one factor in player replacement is myopic and stupid

The team 2 years ago finished 10 - 6, So would anyone conclude that the idiot that started this thread be voted into Beoli’s place?