Pats "talking to" Ty Law?

[MoLewisrocks]

Nope, not the only reason.

LINEBACKER HELL 2005-2007

Analyze 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008. Law would have helped, but the defense needed even more than that: fewer injuries, flu shots, and linebacker improvement from the 2004 draft onward.

With McGinist (and Phifer) aging and almost ready to go, how did we prepare in 2004 and 2005? We added no one in 2004. Were unprepared when Bruschi and Phifer went down and out respectively in 2005, and brought in Beisel and Chad Brown. Where were the youngsters; where was the depth on the team? Hey, we drafted Claridge in 2005. 2005 and 2006 was the year when linebacker became a severe weakness. Finally in 2007, we brought in Thomas (and Moss and Welker). Was he really enough? Yes, enough for a perfect season, but not enough for the future. Who were we developing? Well, Woods was a 2006 UDFA who we had in place of Tully the 7th rounder and we drafted Lua. BFD!

FINALLY, in 2008, Belichick paid attention to bringing in linebackers. He brought in Mayo, Crable, Guyton, Redd, Robertson and Ruud. Woods had indeed developed enough to replace the aging and slowing Vrabel for 2009, with the help of an old collegue Tully.

And yes, in 2008 and 2009, Belichick replaced all the corners and added a few safeties to youngsters James Sanders and Meriweather.

No, Law wasn't the only reason for not winning a Super Bowl after being one of the best teams of all time in the 2003 and 2004 seasons, but the depletion of the secondary was certainly one of the primary factors along with the linebackers.

Belichick is such a putz. Kraft should have tapped you to straighten him out ages ago...

 

[Jimke]

Belichick is such a putz. Kraft should have tapped you to straighten him out ages ago...

Maybe BB did need mgteich's help in recent years. Until the past
two years, the defense had been largely neglected in the draft. BB
chose free agency to fill holes and was not 100% successful.

I was encouraged to see the Pats address the linebacker situation in
the 2008 draft and follow up by signing Guyton and Redd. The
defensive backfield has been solidified by both the 2008 and 2009
drafts. The free agent signings are stop gap moves until Butler, Chung,
and Wheatley/Wilhite can develop into starters.

 

[alvinnf]

NE good ole' resume fodder for TY to get his Dolla's up. C'mon who has'nt embelished a little on their resume, "did I happen to mention I played for the NE Patriots"........

 

[Pats726]

With McGinist (and Phifer) aging and almost ready to go, how did we prepare in 2004 and 2005? We added no one in 2004. Were unprepared when Bruschi and Phifer went down and out respectively in 2005, and brought in Beisel and Chad Brown. Where were the youngsters; where was the depth on the team?

Just looking at what you called linebacker hell....For 05 you MISSED an important part of that situation..that Ted Johnosn retired on the opening day of camp...(or a day before) so there was NO TIME to get prepared for that. That all ILBs Bruschi, Phifer and then Johnson were gone was a big hit for the team to take. Beisel and CBrown were more to take Bruschi's Phifer's place and not TJ's. I think people really forget about that and do NOT factor that loss into the situation.

 

[jczxohn1]

Sounds like Ty is playing the Pats card in trying to up the ante to teams who are intrigued. The only sure way of getting a rise out of Mangenious is to let it be known BB is interested.

 

[mgteich]

You are really accusing me of not remembering what happened in 2005, the collapse of one of the top franchises in the history of the NFL? Posters here and elsewhere were screaming for the team to develop ILB's to groom to replace Phifer and Johnson in 2003, in 2004 and in 2005. After Bruschi's stroke, we were all but apoplectic. We had a team that was one of the best ever, a franchise that had just won three Super Bowls in four years. And yet, my team, our team, seemed to have a complete blind spot. Belichick thought he could bring in jags and over-the-hill vets at any time and they would succeed. That strategy certainly worked at CB, RG and RT.

We had a fine set of OLB's: Vrabel, McGinist, Chatham and Banta-Cain. Then, as now, there was some talk of weakening the OLB position to solve the now obvious problems at ILB. Vrabel practiced at ILB for awhile, was injured, and went back outside.
===========================
Let be put this as simply as I can. Phifer was ancient going into the offseason, and was expected to go. BTW, he was cut by the patriots after Bruschi's stroke. Phifer being gone was the choice of the patriots and anticipated. And Ted Johnson had a history of injuries and was not yet cleared to play for 2005.

The backups at ILB were Izzo and Davis. Apparently, the team originally planned on going into 2005 with Johnson, Bruschi, Izzo, and Davis. Of course, Don Davis and Larry Izzo didn't really play linebacker (they were awesome special teamers). There was no preparation to deal with the possible retirement or even injury replacement of Ted Johnson. There was no one to even step in for a play of two, never mind preparation for an injury.

Then Bruschi's stroke happened.

THE SOLUTIONS TO BRUSCHI AND PHIFER
This situation was known on February 15th when Bruschi's stroke happened. The patriots did ALL they could in the ENTIRE off-season starting in February, the draft and the later offseason before camp. The team was replacing two key pieces of the defense from the Super Bowl teams for 2005 (Bruschi and Phifer) and preparing for the future. The BEST the team could do was to sign Monty Beisel, Chad Brown and draft Claridge, a 5th round prospect for 2006. I applauded the signing of Beisel in April. I thought that he was the replacement for Davis, who had been injured more and more. Beisel was a top special teamer. Even he could do more than just replace Davis; perhaps he could be a potential backup for whoever Belichick would bring in. Little did we know (and little did Monty know) that HE was the plan; well, he and the ancient Chad Brown who was signed in May). This must have been surreal to both of them, the special teamer and the outside linebacker. Surely someone else was being brought in to start. Ted Johnson was surely not the only starter at ILB, given his injuries!

THEN TED JOHNSON RETIRED
Ted Johnson had a history of concussions and other injuries. Johnson had not been medically cleared to play. He decided the best for him and his family was not to play anymore. Apparently, we are to believe that this was a total shock to the patriots and that it is reasonable that there was no provision at all for a backup or for development for him or for Phifer. After all, Claridge was drafted only in 2005 after Bruschi's stroke.
==========================================================

JUST BY THE WAY: WAS JOHNSON'S RETIREMENT REALLY A SHOCK; I WONDER WHY?
He wasn't cleared medically, and had a history of injuries. See below from a post to PFW at the time.

"Great job as always on answering some tough and some times repetitive questions from the greatest fans in the NFL. My question concerns Ted Johnson's retirement. I completely understand why Johnson made this decision. Obviously he was thinking of his family and future after football. And of course since the doctors would not medically clear him play, the writing was on the wall. My concern evolves around his timing which took the entire Patriots staff by surprise. Johnson was aware of his history of concussions and I was wondering why did he wait until the day before training camp opens to be examined when he could have examined much earlier. Do you think he had an idea all along prior to his physical that he would be informed he would not be cleared to play? Was any of the coaching staff aware of this possibility? I am just a bit perplexed how this did take everyone by surprise."

Just looking at what you called linebacker hell....For 05 you MISSED an important part of that situation..that Ted Johnosn retired on the opening day of camp...(or a day before) so there was NO TIME to get prepared for that. That all ILBs Bruschi, Phifer and then Johnson were gone was a big hit for the team to take. Beisel and CBrown were more to take Bruschi's Phifer's place and not TJ's. I think people really forget about that and do NOT factor that loss into the situation.

 

[Pats726]

You are really accusing me of not remembering what happened in 2005, the collapse of one of the top franchises in the history of the NFL?

EXCUSE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! Sorry I hit a nerve...BUT...Ted Johnson was NOT mentioned in your post. THAT was YOUR oversight...YOUR analysis..THAT was all I was saying...that he needed to be a PART of the discussion. Jeez.......

 

[mgteich]

We were screwed long before Johnson announced his retirement after failing to be medically cleared. We were screwed when the team made no provisions in 2003 and 2004 to develop anyone to replace Phifer and yes a backup to the ever more often injured Johnson.

When Bruschi had his stroke, the team did very little to address the issue.

So yes, I thought Johnson's retirement was a side issue. We were done before that. And injured Johnson wouldn't have helped much.

EXCUSE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! Sorry I hit a nerve...BUT...Ted Johnson was NOT mentioned in your post. THAT was YOUR oversight...YOUR analysis..THAT was all I was saying...that he needed to be a PART of the discussion. Jeez.......

 

[Pats726]

We were screwed long before Johnson announced his retirement after failing to be medically cleared. We were screwed when the team made no provisions in 2003 and 2004 to develop anyone to replace Phifer and yes a backup to the ever more often injured Johnson.

When Bruschi had his stroke, the team did very little to address the issue.

So yes, I thought Johnson's retirement was a side issue. We were done before that. And injured Johnson wouldn't have helped much.

I tend to think it made it MUCH worse...not just a side issue as you put it..more a matter of degree..

 

[JSn]

I admit, I didn't read the entire thread...

Is Ty Law an option at strong safety?

 

[mgteich]

Would we really have been better off if Johnson had not announced and failed the medical test? Or perhaps, we all would have been better off if he participated in 6 weeks of camp and then was injured.

No, Johnson's announcement did not make it MUCH worse, except for we uninformed fans who did not know what was going on, or for team decision-makers with their heads fimly lodged in the sand (being nice). Johnson was injured and would never be the same again. Johnson stopped the nonsense and made it official.

The team was basking in the glory of the Super Bowl wins. The FO thought that they were unvinceable and could plug roster spots with street veterans and special teamers. Was it really reasonable for the team to plan to go into the season with Beisel, Chad Brown and an injured Ted Johnson as our ILB's?

Even after all that, we still didn't bring in ILB help. We did bring in Thomas to play out of position for a year in a defense he was learning. And we counted on a returning Bruschi. Surely that was enough for 2007 and the future????? But that was indeed good enough for 2007. And we had a 16-0 season, one play away. Surely, the issues at ILB were not worth addressing earlier! And anyone who suggested that an additional top linebacker, or even a mid-level one might have made a difference, is laughed at. Surely, the problem was purely that of the secondary. Or surely, if the offense had executed one more scoring drive (or een time consuming drive), the SB would have been ours. Or, fire the medical team; flu shots would have made the difference.

Or maybe, just maybe, we were tempting fate, as we had for several years, by not addressing our need at ILB.
=======================================================
Had we learned anything? Well in 2006 we drafted Claridge; in 2007 we drafted Rogers and Lua. We brought in no real help inside at ILB. Rogers was not even good enough for our system for Belichick to keep on the roster.

FINALLY, FINALLY, in 2008, Belichick addressed the linebacker issue, but that was because we needed help outside and Belichick focused on all the linebacker issues. Well, all of us are glad that Belichick finally focused on linebackers in 2008, bringing in Mayo, Crable, Guyton, Redd, Ruud, and Robertson.

And having addressed the issue, Belichick went back to normal linebacker mode. Out with Vrabel, in with Banta-Cain and McKenzie. After all, he had met the need for 2009 by re-signing Woods to a one year contract.
==============================

Did I miss something? Are we counting on Guyton to start and counting on an aging veteran to contribute. And if there is an injury, we will unlucky yet again. Perhaps, we would simply be unprepared.
==================

And, yes you hit a nerve. I am one that has been begging for linebacker help, especially inside linebacker help for many years, since we drafted Graham instead of Napolean Harris. I refuse to believe that there was no one in the entire draft that could help us at LB in 2009, our only real need going into the draft. Yes I know we drafted a developmental prospect in McKenzie who WE PROJECTED to be a future ILB. I know Belichick likes what we have enough to fire Vrabel. But we certainly are THIN and could use help. I wonder who this year's help will be. Has Monty Beisel signed yet? How about Chad Brown?

I tend to think it made it MUCH worse...not just a side issue as you put it..more a matter of degree..

 

[Deus Irae]

Would we really have been better off if Johnson had not announced and failed the medical test? Or perhaps, we all would have been better off if he participated in 6 weeks of camp and then was injured.

No, Johnson's announcement did not make it MUCH worse, except for we uninformed fans who did not know what was going on, or for team decision-makers with their heads fimly lodged in the sand (being nice). Johnson was injured and would never be the same again. Johnson stopped the nonsense and made it official.

The team was basking in the glory of the Super Bowl wins. The FO thought that they were unvinceable and could plug roster spots with street veterans and special teamers. Was it really reasonable for the team to plan to go into the season with Beisel, Chad Brown and an injured Ted Johnson as our ILB's?

Even after all that, we still didn't bring in ILB help. We did bring in Thomas to play out of position for a year in a defense he was learning. And we counted on a returning Bruschi. Surely that was enough for 2007 and the future????? But that was indeed good enough for 2007. And we had a 16-0 season, one play away. Surely, the issues at ILB were not worth addressing earlier! And anyone who suggested that an additional top linebacker, or even a mid-level one might have made a difference, is laughed at. Surely, the problem was purely that of the secondary. Or surely, if the offense had executed one more scoring drive (or een time consuming drive), the SB would have been ours. Or, fire the medical team; flu shots would have made the difference.

Or maybe, just maybe, we were tempting fate, as we had for several years, by not addressing our need at ILB.
=======================================================
Had we learned anything? Well in 2006 we drafted Claridge; in 2007 we drafted Rogers and Lua. We brought in no real help inside at ILB. Rogers was not even good enough for our system for Belichick to keep on the roster.

FINALLY, FINALLY, in 2008, Belichick addressed the linebacker issue, but that was because we needed help outside and Belichick focused on all the linebacker issues. Well, all of us are glad that Belichick finally focused on linebackers in 2008, bringing in Mayo, Crable, Guyton, Redd, Ruud, and Robertson.

And having addressed the issue, Belichick went back to normal linebacker mode. Out with Vrabel, in with Banta-Cain and McKenzie. After all, he had met the need for 2009 by re-signing Woods to a one year contract.
==============================

Did I miss something? Are we counting on Guyton to start and counting on an aging veteran to contribute. And if there is an injury, we will unlucky yet again. Perhaps, we would simply be unprepared.

The team addressed the issue a number of times throughout the years. It wasn't that the team didn't make attempts, it was that the attempts failed. Furthermore, had Johnson retired earlier, the team would have had more time to make decisions. Neither of us will ever know if that time would have helped or not.

The team was basking in the glory of the Super Bowl wins. The FO thought that they were unvinceable and could plug roster spots with street veterans and special teamers. Was it really reasonable for the team to plan to go into the season with Beisel, Chad Brown and an injured Ted Johnson as our ILB's?

For years, the Patriots were winning games and Super Bowls with precisely those kinds of players. Of course it was 'reasonable' to go forward with the same sort of players. Unfortunately, one of the downsides of being human is that you don't do everything perfectly and sometimes your plans don't work out.

 

[PatsBoy12]

The team addressed the issue a number of times throughout the years. It wasn't that the team didn't make attempts, it was that the attempts failed. Furthermore, had Johnson retired earlier, the team would have had more time to make decisions. Neither of us will ever know if that time would have helped or not.



For years, the Patriots were winning games and Super Bowls with precisely those kinds of players. Of course it was 'reasonable' to go forward with the same sort of players. Unfortunately, one of the downsides of being human is that you don't do everything perfectly and sometimes your plans don't work out.

I've been watching this battle progress for a day or so now and this is the truest and most eloquent thing that's been said regarding the matter to date. BB and co. thought that Beisel and Brown could give them the same production as all the other "over-the-hill" players like Phifer and some of the others. It just didn't work.

Anyway, none of that matters now. We have youth to go with the veteran leadership, a hungry coach that is going to make sure the team is hungry, and an offensive lineup that looks more daunting to opponents on paper than the 2007 crew. I'm sure we'll be fine now without Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Ellis Hobbs, Mike Vrabel, and any other name that anyone wants to throw out there.

 

[mgteich]

I understand. So it just didn't work out with Beisel and Brown, but that is long in the past and we are fine now. We are fine with the following as our ILB's:
Bruschi - on his last legs, very likely his last year here (perhaps we will get a full year)
Mayo - the stud and future all-pro
Guyton - the raw kid who we hope will be a starter (this will likely need to happen this year)
Alexander - our ILB that doesn't really play linebacker (we usually have one or two)
=============================
And you think that this is just fine. As I indicated, if there is an injury to Mayo or Guyton, we'll just chalk it up to bad luck. We have not learned enough to be prepared.
=============================
In the end, I agree that the team is in fine shape. We are the best in the league. I do disagree with the assessment that Chung was more of a need than an ILB. We'll see. HOWEVER, the injury to McKenzie might have been a wake up call. Maybe we will really bring in Napolean Harris or another veteran.
=============================
Just BTW, it is one thing to bring in jags to be our depth, as we MAY be doing this year. It is quite another to bring in two to be our starters as we did in 2005. The situations are very different.
=============================
In the end, I am still in my annual withdrawal phase from not drafting linebackers. It was great that Belichick gave me one year without such symptoms.
==============================================

I've been watching this battle progress for a day or so now and this is the truest and most eloquent thing that's been said regarding the matter to date. BB and co. thought that Beisel and Brown could give them the same production as all the other "over-the-hill" players like Phifer and some of the others. It just didn't work.

Anyway, none of that matters now. We have youth to go with the veteran leadership, a hungry coach that is going to make sure the team is hungry, and an offensive lineup that looks more daunting to opponents on paper than the 2007 crew. I'm sure we'll be fine now without Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Ellis Hobbs, Mike Vrabel, and any other name that anyone wants to throw out there.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I understand. So it just didn't work out with Beisel and Brown, but that is long in the past and we are fine now. We are fine with the following as our ILB's:
Bruschi - on his last legs, very likely his last year here (perhaps we will get a full year)
Mayo - the stud and future all-pro
Guyton - the raw kid who we hope will be a starter (this will likely need to happen this year)
Alexander - our ILB that doesn't really play linebacker (we usually have one or two)
=============================
And you think that this is just fine. As I indicated, if there is an injury to Mayo or Guyton, we'll just chalk it up to bad luck. We have not learned enough to be prepared.
=============================
In the end, I agree that the team is in fine shape. We are the best in the league. I do disagree with the assessment that Chung was more of a need than an ILB. We'll see. HOWEVER, the injury to McKenzie might have been a wake up call. Maybe we will really bring in Napolean Harris or another veteran.
=============================
Just BTW, it is one thing to bring in jags to be our depth, as we MAY be doing this year. It is quite another to bring in two to be our starters as we did in 2005. The situations are very different.
=============================
In the end, I am still in my annual withdrawal phase from not drafting linebackers. It was great that Belichick gave me one year without such symptoms.
==============================================

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I certainly wouldn't try to deny you yours. I just feel like rehashing what happened in the past with the LB's makes absolutely no sense now. Almost all of those guys, except Bruschi obviously, are long gone. Those SB's that we apparently left on the table are also long gone. Going in to this year, we appear to be better than we have in past seasons (recently). Is it ideal, no. Is it better than before, yes. I do believe that we are fine with what we are entering the season with. Fine doesn't mean ideal or great. It means fine. I would not, however, be at all upset if we did bring in a "bigger name" guy to fill the role since Bruschi is so obviously in his twilight years. You can look at any number of other contenders in the league and, if one of their key ingredients on defense (or O for that matter) goes down, then they too will have no viable replacement options.

MG, no disrespect to you, but what would you really have the Pats do? Who is on the market that you feel they haven't taken a serious look at? What rookie do you feel would have fit the system? Again no disrespect to you (or anyone), but I trust BB's judgment more than that of anyone on this board, so if he didn't feel like any of the plethora of guys he passed on fit, then I'm going to trust in that. He's not always right, of course, but I'm willing to bet since he's a top-flight, high paid NFL coach (the likes of which we haven't seen in a really long time in terms of innovation, motivation, and dare I say genius), he knows what he's doing more often than not. Is that at least fair enough in your eyes?<---Again, not trying to disrespect or be a smart@ss.

 

[Deus Irae]

I understand. So it just didn't work out with Beisel and Brown, but that is long in the past and we are fine now. We are fine with the following as our ILB's:
Bruschi - on his last legs, very likely his last year here (perhaps we will get a full year)
Mayo - the stud and future all-pro
Guyton - the raw kid who we hope will be a starter (this will likely need to happen this year)
Alexander - our ILB that doesn't really play linebacker (we usually have one or two)
=============================
And you think that this is just fine. As I indicated, if there is an injury to Mayo or Guyton, we'll just chalk it up to bad luck. We have not learned enough to be prepared.
=============================
In the end, I agree that the team is in fine shape. We are the best in the league. I do disagree with the assessment that Chung was more of a need than an ILB. We'll see. HOWEVER, the injury to McKenzie might have been a wake up call. Maybe we will really bring in Napolean Harris or another veteran.
=============================
Just BTW, it is one thing to bring in jags to be our depth, as we MAY be doing this year. It is quite another to bring in two to be our starters as we did in 2005. The situations are very different.
=============================
In the end, I am still in my annual withdrawal phase from not drafting linebackers. It was great that Belichick gave me one year without such symptoms.
==============================================

Go read Polian's remarks about linebackers in this year's draft. That might make you feel a bit better.

 

[xrossed]

 

[mgteich]

When Laurinitis, Sintim, and Maualuga are out of the league next year, remind me of this post.

But this has happened since Belichick arrived except for last year. No linebacker is in the first five rounds has been good enough for Belichick and our system. Mayo was the exception and now McKenzie. We've had the need to develop linebackers for a decade; they just never seem to be good enough.

We will need to better understand why Guyton and Bruschi are so good, healthy and able that no 2009 and 2010 help was needed from Laurinitis, Sintim or Maualuga. I certainly hope that Guyton is so much the real deal that no competition is needed, and no help.

In the meantime, we will be weaker this year at LB than we might have been, unless we sign a free agant or two. Linebacker will be the weakness of the team for the first time in memory, certainly in the 29 years I've been a fan. There is no shame in have weaknesses, but in 2003 and 2004, we had the best linebacking corp in football. We had five of the best. We now have two.

Go read Polian's remarks about linebackers in this year's draft. That might make you feel a bit better.

 

[Deus Irae]

When Laurinitis, Sintim, and Maualuga are out of the league next year, remind me of this post.

But this has happened since Belichick arrived except for last year. No linebacker is in the first five rounds has been good enough for Belichick and our system. Mayo was the exception and now McKenzie. We've had the need to develop linebackers for a decade; they just never seem to be good enough.

We will need to better understand why Guyton and Bruschi are so good, healthy and able that no 2009 and 2010 help was needed from Laurinitis, Sintim or Maualuga. I certainly hope that Guyton is so much the real deal that no competition is needed, and no help.

In the meantime, we will be weaker this year at LB than we might have been, unless we sign a free agant or two. Linebacker will be the weakness of the team for the first time in memory, certainly in the 29 years I've been a fan. There is no shame in have weaknesses, but in 2003 and 2004, we had the best linebacking corp in football. We had five of the best. We now have two.

Wow.... just, wow.

 

[mgteich]

I have three very simple questions
1) Are we stronger than last year at OLB and by a little or a lot?
2) Are we stronger than last year at ILB and by a little or a lot?
3) Are you satsfied with our situation at LB, or is this a position of concern for you? Are you or less satisfied than you were on February 1st?

For me, I have no concerns (other than Brady's health) about any other position but linebacker on the team, none.

And yes, I have posted for months that Belichick might be satisfied with our OLB and ILB situations. And most here could not believe that this could possibly be the case.

Wow.... just, wow.