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Pats looking for a pass rusher?

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by Seneschal2, Feb 2, 2009.

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  1. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

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    According to Walterfootball.com's mock:

    ---

    This is strictly a FWIW bit of info, and by no means meant to be a scoop. The Pats could be looking at most positions -- pass rushers included.

    I remember years ago BB saying that the elite pass rushers tend to go earlier (top 20), so if you want one...

    Unnamed sources are irritating to those who want to KNOW.

    Those who want to package picks and trade up can now start the salivating process... ;)
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  2. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have a suspicion Maybin will end up rising fast and going quite a bit higher than 23, but he does have a lot of upside. Even though he's a "conversion" rather than a "sure thing", whatever that may be, I find him more appealing at #23 than someone like Clint Sintim, but I doubt he'll last. He and Everett Brown seem like the 2 best DE -> 3/4 OLB conversion prospects by far. I could see SF going for him at #10 or SD at #16. While he is somewhat reminsicent of Crable in terms of his lanky frame and needing to add bulk and strength, I think he has much more upside.

    I wouldn't trade up for him (as discussed in a separate thread), but I'd seriously consider him at 23. If we manage to franchise Cassel and trade him for somewhere around 18-22 then I'd be happy with Maybin at 18-22 and a CB or S at 23 (DJ Moore or Sean Smith are my preferences).
  3. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It would surprise me.
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Larry English would seem to fit the bill but Belichick has never taken a small school guy in the first round before.
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I guess it would be a situational guy as our pass rush comes from the DE and OLB and Warren, Seymour, Vrabel and Thomas seem locked in. I would like to think Crabel could fill some of this role though.
  6. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

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    I he's on the Pats list, he could be a target later in round one, or better yet, maybe early round two.

    I have high hopes for Crable as well. Makes sense to always upgrade the position whenever able though, so if there's one prospect who exceeds the skills of Woods, Crable, etc., then BB will have no problem with creating competition for the position.

    My belief is that Vrabel remains outside, AD will still offer his versatility to play both in and out, and the Pats will be looking to add another ILB as well as another DE/OLB to the mix -- if the VALUE is there.
  7. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    23. New England Patriots: Aaron Maybin, DE/OLB, Penn State

    Let's parse this out a bit:

    "I haven't put much tape of Aaron Maybin in yet, but from what I have heard he is a phenomenal athlete. "

    BOR Translation: "I'm using information from fellow web-based draftniks and a couple chats with scouts and have no clue why this kid is projected in the first round."

    "A source close to the New England Patriots told me they are going to be looking for a pass rusher in this draft..."

    BOR Translation: I was in the donut shop talking with a beat reporter from the Herald and he predicted the Patriots would be drafting a pass rusher since their pass rush was so poor last season."

    Maybin has a lot to like: 12 sacks, 20 TFL, 3 FF...and all that as a rSO; however, one year wonderkind are a cautionary tale when trying to assess how well teams are blocking them. In his last four games, Maybin had 1 sack, 1 pass defended, and 4 TFL, teams were adapting to him - oddly enough this started with the Iowa game that broke PSU's undefeated streak and included three bowl teams. I'd want to spend some more time with tape before predicting NE's undying love.
  8. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Something about Maybin just doesn't sit right with me. I really can't explain it...it's my sixth, or possibly even seventh, sense.

    I think Sintim is a much safer pick with just as much upside. He has a much greater body of work to judge him by.
  9. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Same here. I'd really like to be more enthusiastic, he seems to have a world of talent, but it seems like he's not just a "projection" to a new position...he's a "projection" to a dedicated, skilled football player. The kid is 20 years old with 2 years of eligibility remaining. For all his natural ability, his body and skills aren't necessarily NFL-ready. That's a huge risk to take on with a high draft pick.
  10. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

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    To respond to the clan for a moment ;), twas the author who guessed Maybin -- not the source. I was more interested in "a source close to the New England Patriots told me" part which may or may not be reliable. If we're going to all speculate (tis what we do here), then I'd prefer to direct my energy in the right direction. Personally, I thought the Pats would go with the current developmental candidates at DE/OLB for this season. But if this rumor has any wings...then maybe it wouldn't hurt to start focusing on some of the prospects who have the best edge rushing skills, perhaps the round 1-2 projections. Just a thought.
  11. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Seneschal, if you weren't obsessing about edge rushers already, you're one of the few. :)

    It's a particularly interesting group this year, with a lot more fitting the profile than recent drafts. (Anybody think Derrick Harvey would go #8 in this draft?) But it feels a lot like walking up to a store shelf crowded with dozens of different products of the kind you're looking for. Your eyes light up, you can't believe the selection, then the closer you look the more every single one seems like not quite what you need. Except maybe one or two that are way out of your price range.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  12. The_Riddler

    The_Riddler Rookie

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    I agree, and I truly believe that the school itself and it's "lack of" defensive pedigree courtesy of the Jimmy Kennedy's and Courtney Brown's of the world might have something to do with that fear. As far as I'm concerned, stay as far away from Penn State players as possible. If we're looking edge-man, let's focus on and stand up Michael Johnson...........
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  13. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Penn St. also makes me nervous, but nearly so much as Michael Johnson. He's a great physical specimen, but his doesn't seem very consistent and I think it is much less certain that he can convert to 3-4 OLB than Maybin.
  14. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    But, how many counter examples can you find from Penn State? I mean, come'on, Tamba Hali, Jay Alford, even Ed Johnson for the Colts, have all played well (though Johnson is a mini-Pacman). Even Lavar Arrington played well before injuries. You can't simply go by two busts.

    PSU is KNOWN for its defensive pedigree through the years. That and running backs. Offensive lineman to a lesser degree, but certainly their forte is producing solid pros on defense.

    That being said, Maybin is not yet strong enough to take on Rosie Colvin's role. Maybin would not play immediately. Should have stayed in school.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  15. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    Think of Michael Johnson as a clone of Crable, only Johnson only wants to tplay the pass and is not interested in playing the run.

    I have never seen Maybin play without a hand on the ground, so I have a hard time projecting him in BB's 3-4 defense. However since my knowledge base is not nearly that of BB's, I can't rule out BB taking the kid, no matter how unlikely it seems.

    I do not see any kid in this draft that is a 3-4 OLB pass rushing demon. I see a large group of second tier guys, Cushings, Mathews, Sintim, etc. but none of the elite status.
  16. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    I concur.

    Since there are no sure things, they all are of the Crabel/Vrabel level. Draft them in the "late second or third and groom them a couple of years" value mode.
  17. The_Riddler

    The_Riddler Rookie

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    Have you heard of a guy named Michael Haynes from Penn State?, speaking of pass rushing DE's. This guy was the 14th overall pick by the Bears in 2003, a complete, and I mean a complete bust. Kennedy (#12) and Courtney Brown(#1) were, high, high expensive draft picks that completely busted out. Arrington as you know was (#2 overall), I mean #2, are you kidding me? for the kind of production you got out of that guy, that is brutal from the investment made in the #2 overall pick, you need much more than that. Penn State is a very, very risky school to look at. Blair Thomas, Kijana Carter, Curtis Enis, DJ Dozier, Kenny Jackson(#4 overall) I mean it's endless. They have to lead the lead in high end R1 busts.

    OSU is the safest Big 10 school, always has been, they are a football factory up in Columbus.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  18. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Come on. There are as many busts from OSU as Penn St, if you care to look for them. How's that Clarett fella doing? Doss? Ginn? Carpenter? Pittman? There are teams that dominate the college football scene that don't have players go on to dominate the NFL. Speed can dominate in the NCAA (USC, Cal, Florida), and likewise, a good system can succeed despite a lack of speed (historically speaking, Penn St, Wisconsin, Nebraska). But in the NFL, a modicum of speed is needed at just about every position but OL, DL, and QB to succeed in the pros. Likewise, you have to have more to offer besides speed in the NFL, where the linebackers tend to be as fast as NCAA defensive backs. Vince Young is the best recent example of this. Bethel Johnson is another one.

    I guess that's a rambling and long-winded way of saying that I disagree with your premise.
  19. The_Riddler

    The_Riddler Rookie

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    Heat, for starters, Mike Doss was a 2cond round draft pick, Antonio Pittman was a 4th round draft pick, you will need to dig a little bit deeper to find the OSU busts. That school has put more high-end R1 talent in this league compared to PSU, it's no content. I listed R1 busts not R2 and R4 busts. Look, yes every school has had their share of busts, but on average, if you compare all of the PSU Round 1 draft choices to the OSU Round 1 draft choices, you see that the percentages of success/bust ratio weigh much heavier with OSU. I mean Todd Blackledge, even Poz right now for Buffalo, for all the hype and I understand he was hurt, but what has he done ?

    Katzenmoyer, Carpenter are the only RECENT R1 busts from that school that I can think of. When you weigh that against the R1 talent they have put in this league (Eddie George, Terry Glenn, Santonio Holmes, Orlando Pace, Chris Carter etc. on and on and on, just look at this list:


    1996 Eddie George (RB) Houston Oilers
    1996 Terry Glenn (WR) New England Patriots
    1997 Orlando Pace (T) St. Louis Rams
    1997 Shawn Springs (CB) Seattle Seshawks
    1999 David Boston (SE) Arizona Cardinals
    1999 Antoine Winfield (CB) Buffalo Bills
    1999 Andy Katzenmoyer (LB) New England Patriots
    2000 Ahmed Plummer (CB) San Francisco 49ers
    2001 Nate Clements (CB) Buffalo Bills
    2001 Ryan Pickett (DT) St. Louis Rams
    2004 Will Smith (DT) New Orleans Saints
    2004 Chris Gamble (DB) Carolina Panthers
    2004 Michael Jenkins (WR) Atlanta Falcons
    2006 Nick Mangold New York Jets
    2006 Donte Whitner Buffalo Bills
    2006 Santonio Holmes Pittsburgh Steelers
    2006 Bobby Carpenter Dallas Cowboys (BUST)
    2006 A.J. Hawk Green Bay Packers
    2007 Ted Ginn Miami Dolphins
    2007 Anthony Gonzalez Indianapolis Colts
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  20. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Listen, I don't have a dog in the fight, but after you knock guys like Arrington for not living up to draft slot, you cite Ryan Picket, Mike Jenkins, and Ted Ginn?

    Anyway, yes, it's a fact that OSU has sent better players to the NFL this decade. They recruit much better. Really, it's been OSU, Michigan, and probably Wisconsin for the Big 10 in the last 10 years or so. Joe Pa, I think, really hurts recruiting athletes from out of Pennsylvania.
  21. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    Micahel Haynes was a huge reach, no one NO ONE, from Penn State imagined he'd go that high. Arrington definitely deserved to be #2. I would have picked him #1. He played like the second best player in the draft as well for a couple years. They've been hit by the injury bug. Ki-Jana Carter, Enis, Blair Thomas, same thing. All these players blew out their knees early on.


    Meanwhile, you left off the backs that played and did well. For every DJ Dozier that busted, you have a Larry Johnson, Curt Warner, Franco Harris, Lydell Mitchell, Gary Brown, Richie Anderson, John Cappelletti, or heck contributors like Leroy Thompson, Sam Gash, Matt Suhey, Michael Robinson. Here's a little known fact: Penn State RBs have gained more yards in the NFL than any other school's RBs. WRs is a similar story, Kenny Jackson was a big bust, but Bobby Engram is still playing. A lot of teams stayed away from Larry Johnson because of the three guys before him with the ACL injuries. It was a mistake.
  22. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    It's not so hard at all to put together such a list from Penn State either.

    But before I do, here are some facts about PSU that go against the grain when it comes to their move to the Big Ten:

    1. PSU has never had dominant stretches, going back through the entire Paterno era. They have always cycled by having great years followed by mediocre or bad years. The four year stretch in the early 2000s lasted longer than the previous bad stretches, but take a look at Paterno's record in the late 1980s. Not good. And that was coming off 2 championships in 4 years.

    2. PSU has had the best record of all Big Ten teams since joining the conference in 1993.

    3. PSU's record since joining the Big Ten is exactly the same within 2 games as it was in the 15 years prior to joining when PSU played mainly teams from the northeast. This would argue against the idea that competition is tougher in the Big Ten. Remember, during the last 15 years, both Ohio State and Michigan have gone through bad stretches.

    4. If you look at the rankings on Scout and Rivals, you'll see that Paterno has pulled some tremendous talent from out of state, they have had highly ranked classes there, and they have expanded their footprint into the South Atlantic and Midwest (at the expense of New Jersey, mainly). Now, that doesn't mean Paterno hasn't squandered the talent. I believe his bad coaching has set kids back. Justin King and Derrick Williams arrived at PSU with boatloads of talent. They leave it not looking so good. During one of those losing years in the early 2000s, PSU had 6 players taken in the first round and a half (now, I don't know what the scouts were watching, but Jimmy Kennedy was not very good at PSU, Anthony Adams totally anchored that defensive line.

    Now onto the PSU NFL successful guys for the last 15 years, 7 Pro Bowlers, a couple guys who came very close in Herring and Engram, and a bunch of solid starters in Pozlusny, Alford, Levi Brown, Hali, Scott, McKenzie, Jurevicius, Drayton, etc. Did they have a lot of busts like Kennedy, Enis, Haynes etc. in that time too? Yes, but they had much more success than busts.:

    2008 (too early to judge)
    3rd Dan Connor Panthers LB
    4th Justin King Rams CB

    2007
    1st Levi Brown Cardinals OL (good pick)
    2nd Paul Posluszny Bills LB (good pick, he's their captain on D)
    3rd Jay Alford Giants DT (good pick)

    2006
    1st Tamba Hali Chiefs DE (good pick)
    4th Michael Robinson 49ers WR (good pick)
    7th Ethan Kilmer Bengals WR (good pick)
    -
    2004
    7th Sean McHugh Titans FB (good pick)

    2003
    1st Larry Johnson Chiefs RB (good pick)
    2nd Bryan Scott Falcons DB (good pick)

    2001
    3rd Kareem McKenzie Jets T (good pick)

    2000
    1st LaVar Arrington Redskins LB

    1998
    2nd Joe Jurevicius Giants WR (good pick)

    1997
    2nd Kim Herring Ravens DB (good pick)

    1996
    1st Jeff Hartings Lions G (good)
    2nd Bobby Engram Bears WR (good)
    3rd Terry Killens Oilers LB (good)
    3rd Jon Witman Steelers RB (ok)
    6th Marco Rivera Packers G (good)

    1995
    1st Kerry Collins Panthers QB (mediocre at best)
    1st Kyle Brady Jets TE (ok)

    1993 1st O.J. McDuffie Dolphins WR (mediocre for 1st)
    2nd Troy Drayton Rams TE (good)
    2nd Todd Rucci Patriots T (ok)
    6th Richie Anderson Jets RB
  23. sg14

    sg14 Rookie

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    Agreed,, I never thought to check him out in the Rose Bowl, looked too skinny, scrawny for a Pat LB.

    Yea, maybe he is the right weight and all but on the field didn't fit the protypical size/ look.

    Maybe Indy would want him..

  24. farn

    farn Rookie

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    Back to the non-PSU talk... it's so difficult to predict BB's draft moves. From Seymour - a move mocked by some - to Merriweather, Mankins, Watson... and of course Mayo.

    Not too many people would've won bets on picking those guys. I remember people questionning the Mankins choice, but he did pan out. And Mayo was not the LB of choice for the Pats on the wonderful mock draft sites.

    BB'S a crazy dude. That's why we like him.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  25. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ahhhh yes, the "source"... :banned:




    :p
  26. The_Riddler

    The_Riddler Rookie

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    "upstater1; It's not so hard at all to put together such a list from Penn State either."

    upstater1, I love the fact that you're definately bleeding blue and white. Listen, I love your enthusiam for PSU, I really do, but look, here's the true and actual list of all PSU (1st and 2nd round picks) since 1992.

    Now be honest, look at this list. These are the 1st and 2nd round picks PSU has put into this league over the last 16 years:

    1992

    34. Green Bay - Mark D'Onofrio, ILB Penn State
    46. Phoenix - Tony Sacca, QB Penn State

    1993

    25. Miami - O.J. McDuffie, WR Penn State (DECENT AT BEST)
    39. L.A. Rams - Troy Drayton, TE Penn State
    51. New England - Todd Rucci, G Penn State (SOLID)

    1994

    Nothing

    1995

    1. Cincinnati - Ki-Jana Carter, RB Penn State
    5. Carolina - Kerry Collins, QB Penn State (DECENT, BUT #5 OVERALL ?)
    9. N.Y. Jets - Kyle Brady, TE Penn State

    1996

    23. Detroit - Jeff Hartings, C Penn State (SOLID)
    30. Washington - Andre Johnson, T Penn State
    52. Chicago - Bobby Engram, WR Penn State (SOLID)

    1997

    58. Baltimore - Kim Herring, FS Penn State

    1998

    5. Chicago - Curtis Enis, RB Penn State
    55. N.Y. Giants - Joe Jurevicius, WR Penn State (DECENT)

    1999

    Nothing

    2000

    1 overall - Cleveland Browns - Courtney Brown, DE Penn State
    2 overall - Washington Redskins - LaVar Arrington, LB Penn State (SOLID if picked lower in this round)

    2001

    Nothing

    2002

    Nothing

    2003

    12 St. Louis Jimmy Kennedy DT Penn State
    14 Chicago Michale Haynes DE Penn State
    17 Arizona Bryant Johnson WR Penn State (HALF DECENT BUT NOT AT #17 OVERALL)
    27 Kansas City Larry Johnson RB Penn State (TREMENDOUS AT THIS POINT IN THE ROUND)

    54 Arizona Anquan Boldin WR Florida State
    55 Atlanta Bryan Scott SS Penn State ( Look at who bookended this guy ? )
    56 N.Y. Giants Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
    57 San Francisco Anthony Adams DT Penn State

    2004/2005

    Nothing

    2006

    20. Kansas City - Tamba Hali, DE Penn State (SOLID)

    2007

    5. Arizona - Levi Brown, OT Penn State (SOLID)
    34. Buffalo (from Detroit) - Paul Posluszny, LB Penn State (Decent to SOLID - Still a tad early)

    2008

    Nothing

    I will say this, the last 3 1/2 rounders look good, but overall, this is not a group of 1 and 2's to be doing cartwheels over. But again, all in good fun, I do love your enthusiasm for the Lions. I just believe that PSU really hasn't put high end talent into this league especially when you take into account the tradition of the school itself, one would expect more.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  27. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    So the Patriots are looking for a DE, OLB and/or a CB ... looks like we're taking a TE then.
  28. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Say hello to your new guard.. man did my draw drop when they picked Mankins.
  29. spann31

    spann31 Rookie

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    haha mine too, wasn't he projected like a fourth round pick
  30. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Yeah I'd consider either Maybin or English if the Pats are going the draft route to acquire an OLB. Then again they might got the FA route. Dansby and Suggs are both impressive and still in their prime.
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