Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft picks

[TruthSeeker]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

Anyone who doesn't think this was a desperation trade is welcome to believe that, and it's possible that they may be correct, although I think 'anxiety' certainly played a major part in this move.

Desperation trade? Upgrading what most people felt was a significant weakness with a player who has proven ability to put pressure on a QB (you need to look at more than just sacks if you're going back statistics) is far from desperation.

I have been of the opinion that people way overvalue draft picks, mostly because they focus on the upside and not on the downside. I believe that it's like 1 out of 3 third round picks becomes a starter at some point in his career. And I'm supposed to think that this late third rounder and a fifth rounder is a "desperation" move for a proven pass rusher?

 

[NE39]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

Other than the Welker deal, which involved a RFA situation, what trades have seen BB give up more for a player than this one? Moss was a 4th, Gabriel was a 5th, Starks was a 3rd, etc..... When you say that the price isn't "as steep as some are making it out to be", you seem to be speaking in the face of all Patriots history under Belichick.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't include Welker, but he gave up a 2nd-round pick for Corey Dillon.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

How is he familiar with the Pats' defense? Because Rob Ryan was his defensive coordinator the last four years and Ryan snuck out of the facilities before Belichick could put him in the brain erasing machine. You do realize that Ryan served under Belichick from 2000-2003 and that Ryan tried unsuccessfully to install the Pats' defense in Oakland (they didn't have the personnel to run it full time especially on the d-line).

Also, Burgess is going to play OLB. I don't know if you have been following, but Belichick has been trying to get a veteran OLB for most of the offseason. Burgess may play DE on the rare occassions that the Pats switch to a 4-3, but he will primarily play OLB and should start even if Belichick rotates the position.

As for Burgess being an OLB who gets double digit sacks, other than Vrabel in 2007 when have the Pats ever gotten that. Burgess is in the last year of his contract and wanting to be paid. The Pats are renting to own here. They got into a bidding war with the Eagles for his services. The Pats did give up a lot actually.

Oh God. Now he is familiar with the Patriot defense because his DC was a LB coach here but installed a different system in Oakland? How, by telepathy? They didnt even play 2 gap much less a 34.

Why do you say BB has been trying to get an OLB? Because of reports?
Those reports also support that he was looking for a sub package pass rusher, which is what those players are, and what he got.
I agree his position is OLB, but he won't be on the field very much ina base 34. His role is OLB in the sub package, which is aligned as a DE.
You do realize that our OLBs become DEs in the sub packages right?
You can use the word platoon if you wish, because thats not a bad description. But this guy is absolutely not an every down player. I suppose its possible he could earn that role, but thats pretty doubtful. His strength is rushing the passer, thats what we got him for, and in the base his weaknesses will be exposed.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

I'm not sure why you wouldn't include Welker, but he gave up a 2nd-round pick for Corey Dillon.

I wouldn't include Welker because he was a RFA and the minimum compensation was fixed by the CBA. Toss in the poison pill concerns and it's a completely different animal than other free agent moves.

So, only Dillon has cost more than a rental who was demoted to backup on a bad team. Hmmm.....

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

Oh God. Now he is familiar with the Patriot defense because his DC was a LB coach here but installed a different system in Oakland? How, by telepathy? They didnt even play 2 gap much less a 34.

Why do you say BB has been trying to get an OLB? Because of reports?
Those reports also support that he was looking for a sub package pass rusher, which is what those players are, and what he got.
I agree his position is OLB, but he won't be on the field very much ina base 34. His role is OLB in the sub package, which is aligned as a DE.
You do realize that our OLBs become DEs in the sub packages right?
You can use the word platoon if you wish, because thats not a bad description. But this guy is absolutely not an every down player. I suppose its possible he could earn that role, but thats pretty doubtful. His strength is rushing the passer, thats what we got him for, and in the base his weaknesses will be exposed.

Yes, when Ryan tried to install the Patriots system in Oakland and teaching his players the Patriots' system, Burgess was learning the Rams' system. Ryan experiemented putting in the 3-4 and eventhough he was well versed with the Pats' 3-4, he decided to use the Chargers 3-4. Burgess learned a lot of the Pats' system because he was taught it by Rob Ryan.

LOL! I know you like to be a contrarian to the point of stupidity a lot of the time, but you really can't be this stupid. The Pats' interest in Jason Taylor was well known to the point that Kraft lobbied for him in the press. They drafted an OLB in McKenzie (who was IRed). They reacquired Tully Banta-Cain. Other than that, there has been absolutely no sign that Belichick has been interested in upgrading the position (an notice I didn't even include the Peppers rumors in that).

So you are saying that the Pats traded for Burgess so he can sit out the season until week 10? Brilliant. No way would Burgess agree to play here if he was only going to play situationally. He would had told Belichick he was not reporting and forced the Raiders to trade him to the Eagles.

Also, the Pats' OLBs rarely become DEs in the sub packages. Most subpackages, LBs come off the field rather than switch position. And if Burgess only is an OLB in subpackages where he plays only DE, doesn't that make him a DE? BTW, just because McGinest and COlvin played subpackages with their hand in the dirt, they weren't playing the DE position because they didn't line up over the tackle.

Burgess may not be an every down player, but he is definitely going to be part of the majority of the downs. Belichick isn't going to trade a 3rd and a 5th (maybe 4th) and pay $2 million to a guy who plays 15 downs a game. If you think that, you don't know what you are talking about. Burgess may not technically start because first down is most likely a run down and that might be the time he sits out, but he will be at least a two down LB. Otherwise, Belichick would never had made the trade.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

I wouldn't include Welker because he was a RFA and the minimum compensation was fixed by the CBA. Toss in the poison pill concerns and it's a completely different animal than other free agent moves.

So, only Dillon has cost more than a rental who was demoted to backup on a bad team. Hmmm.....

Actually, the reason the Pats traded for Welker was to avoid going the poison pill route. They ended up giving the Dolphins a 2nd and 7th instead of a 2nd and a poison pill loaded contract offer. So it was a TRADE, not an RFA acquisition.

If Guyton continues to improve and Burgess adapts to the 3-4, then a starting rotation of Burgess-Mayo-Guyton-Thomas could be extremely potent. BB could also use Burgess and/or Thomas at DE in some 4-3 schemes, or run a "big" 4-3 with Burgess-Mayo-Thomas at LB and Warren-Wilfork-Brace-Seymour at DE. Add in the improved depth in the secondary, and the defense looks to be potentially the best since 2003.

It would certainly get ourmost talented defenders on the field at once. And BB is a master of getting this done. Whether he's using some weird exotic scheme, or moving attackers with a unique 'elephant' role, re McGinnest.

I really like the acquisition of Burgess for a 3rd rounder, because the Pats under BB have struck out pretty often with their 3rd round picks or opted not to use them.

Pats 3rd round picks 01-09:
2001 Brock Williams
2002/2003 No selection
2004 Gus Scott
2005 Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur
2006 David Thomas
2007 No selection
2008 Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell
2009 Brandon Tate, Tyrone Mckenzie

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

I wouldn't include Welker because he was a RFA and the minimum compensation was fixed by the CBA. Toss in the poison pill concerns and it's a completely different animal than other free agent moves.

So, only Dillon has cost more than a rental who was demoted to backup on a bad team. Hmmm.....

I disagree with you about Welker. Belichick could have easily deemed Welker too costly.

Also, it was publicized that the Raiders weren't going to let Burgess go for less than a 3rd and 4th. So it is similiar to Welker that to get his man, Belichick was going to have to pay.

Also, we have to look at the position they were trading for. A pass rusher is harder to get than a lot of the other position especially WR. You do have to take that into account.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

I disagree with you about Welker. Belichick could have easily deemed Welker too costly.

Also, it was publicized that the Raiders weren't going to let Burgess go for less than a 3rd and 4th. So it is similiar to Welker that to get his man, Belichick was going to have to pay.

Also, we have to look at the position they were trading for. A pass rusher is harder to get than a lot of the other position especially WR. You do have to take that into account.

Welker was a fixed cost in terms of signing him clean. It was a 2nd if you signed him to an offer. It was a different animal.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

I asked this earlier, and I didn't see anyone answer it (my apologies if someone did and I missed it), so I'll ask you:

Other than the Welker deal, which involved a RFA situation, what trades have seen BB give up more for a player than this one? Moss was a 4th, Gabriel was a 5th, Starks was a 3rd, etc..... When you say that the price isn't "as steep as some are making it out to be", you seem to be speaking in the face of all Patriots history under Belichick.

The Moss deal was one of the all-time rip-offs in history, I don't think we can include that.

As for Starks and Gabriel, neither had the production Burgess has. In fact, the two combined wouldn't be worth Burgess (and ironically, they were moved for a combined 3rd & 5th).

If you look at the Pats success rate in the late 3rd round, you can argue they have between a 33-50% shot at getting a starter (depends on your view of Hobbs, I suppose) - which is quite high compared to the league norm. Let's see if either Crable or O'Connell pan out, as obviously that would greatly impact that #.

If you look at the Pats success rate in the late 5th round, they have about a 20% chance of getting a starter (Koppen is the only notable 5th rounder, PK Sam, Clint Odenburg, Ryan Claridge, etc. are more like what you get in round 5, and that's excluding Ryan O'Cal who was early 5th round).

What do you think the % is that Burgess turns into a starting caliber player for us and contributes to the team this year?

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

Oh God. Now he is familiar with the Patriot defense because his DC was a LB coach here but installed a different system in Oakland? How, by telepathy? They didnt even play 2 gap much less a 34.

Why do you say BB has been trying to get an OLB? Because of reports?
Those reports also support that he was looking for a sub package pass rusher, which is what those players are, and what he got.
I agree his position is OLB, but he won't be on the field very much ina base 34. His role is OLB in the sub package, which is aligned as a DE.
You do realize that our OLBs become DEs in the sub packages right?
You can use the word platoon if you wish, because thats not a bad description. But this guy is absolutely not an every down player. I suppose its possible he could earn that role, but thats pretty doubtful. His strength is rushing the passer, thats what we got him for, and in the base his weaknesses will be exposed.

This is NOT accurate. It depends heavily on the subpackage and even then I strongly object to saying a 3-4 OLB is a DE in a subpackage. The entire reason why finding a 3-4 OLB is difficult is in the fact that it requires so much more versatility than a DE.

How wold AD or Burgess would be a DE in a 3-3 nickel? Or a 2-4 nickel? They'd be OLB, either could drop into coverage or rush, or both could rush, or both could drop. AD was dropping into coverage more often than not, particularly early in the season last year when Mayo/Guyton couldn't be counted on.

The whole point of having versatile OLBs is so that the offense doesn't know where the rush comes from. Calling these guys DEs discredits that versatility b/c it suggests that its presumed they will be rushing the passer.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

The Moss deal was one of the all-time rip-offs in history, I don't think we can include that.

As for Starks and Gabriel, neither had the production Burgess has. In fact, the two combined wouldn't be worth Burgess (and ironically, they were moved for a combined 3rd & 5th).

If you look at the Pats success rate in the late 3rd round, you can argue they have between a 33-50% shot at getting a starter (depends on your view of Hobbs, I suppose) - which is quite high compared to the league norm. Let's see if either Crable or O'Connell pan out, as obviously that would greatly impact that #.

If you look at the Pats success rate in the late 5th round, they have about a 20% chance of getting a starter (Koppen is the only notable 5th rounder, PK Sam, Clint Odenburg, Ryan Claridge, etc. are more like what you get in round 5, and that's excluding Ryan O'Cal who was early 5th round).

What do you think the % is that Burgess turns into a starting caliber player for us and contributes to the team this year?

I fall in line with the thinking that his playing time will be based on the down/distance & type of O they are confronting. If the opponent is pass happy or the game evolves into one where the D needs to be nickle/dime (see colts-pats 2007) then he will get a ton of snaps. If they are playing a power-running team, I dont see him on the field as much in that scenario, but certainly will be in passing-type situations.
Also, if they are going up against a tackle who is likened to a turn-style, that may present opportunites in the base D.

My .02$

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I don't view signing Burgess as a desperation move for giving up picks - A desperation move would have been to call Colvin,McGinest or even Seau off the couch because depth was scary thin....THIS transaction was not desperate but for depth and a veteran at the same time,can't fault the move at all.

I do wonder if this deal would have ever gone down if Crabel was able...able to play right now that is.

If Jason Taylor had decided to come here a month ago,Burgess is elsewhere

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

Welker was a fixed cost in terms of signing him clean. It was a 2nd if you signed him to an offer. It was a different animal.

It may have been a fixed cost, but the Pats didn't have to make the transaction if they thought it was too much. They definitely didn't have to throw in an extra pick to make sure the Dolphins wouldn't have matched the offer. I think we are dealing with semantics here. There were plenty of other WRs receivers available that year if the Pats wanted to go in another direction.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't view signing Burgess as a desperation move for giving up picks - A desperation move would have been to call Colvin,McGinest or even Seau off the couch because depth was scary thin....THIS transaction was not desperate but for depth and a veteran at the same time,can't fault the move at all.

I do wonder if this deal would have ever gone down if Crabel was able...able to play right now that is.

If Jason Taylor had decided to come here a month ago,Burgess is elsewhere

I think you are putting too much weight on Crable's value. I don't think healthy or not that the Pats would have done anything different. I don't know if the Pats are sold on him.

I do agree that Jason Taylor would have changed things though.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

The Moss deal was one of the all-time rip-offs in history, I don't think we can include that.

He was brought in to be a #1 WR. Even if you just call it "generic #1 WR", it's still just a 4 for that position.

As for Starks and Gabriel, neither had the production Burgess has. In fact, the two combined wouldn't be worth Burgess (and ironically, they were moved for a combined 3rd & 5th).

Burgess' sack production reads like a mountain peak, and it's been in decline over recent seasons. He's 30 years old and in the last year of his deal.

If you look at the Pats success rate in the late 3rd round, you can argue they have between a 33-50% shot at getting a starter (depends on your view of Hobbs, I suppose) - which is quite high compared to the league norm. Let's see if either Crable or O'Connell pan out, as obviously that would greatly impact that #.

If you look at the Pats success rate in the late 5th round, they have about a 20% chance of getting a starter (Koppen is the only notable 5th rounder, PK Sam, Clint Odenburg, Ryan Claridge, etc. are more like what you get in round 5, and that's excluding Ryan O'Cal who was early 5th round).

What do you think the % is that Burgess turns into a starting caliber player for us and contributes to the team this year?

The % of Burgess becoming a starting caliber player is irrelevant. This is a team that drafted about a dozen players this season, and loads up on picks year after year. They just paid more for a conversion project and/or part time pass rusher than for Moss, Gabriel or Starks. Only Dillon cost them more, given that Welker was a RFA situation and not applicable.

I have no problem with the team bringing in Burgess. I happen to think that they overpaid for him, which makes me think there was a much higher level of concern at the OLB position than they were letting on.

 

[VJCPatriot]

If Jason Taylor had decided to come here a month ago,Burgess is elsewhere

Hey let's note for once that the Patriots got a linebacker the Eagles wanted instead of the other way around. This one's for you Box. Apparently BB cares. LOL. JK. He doesn't, but it was a good move and a nice reversal from previous draft scenarios. (Stewart Bradley).

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

It may have been a fixed cost, but the Pats didn't have to make the transaction if they thought it was too much. They definitely didn't have to throw in an extra pick to make sure the Dolphins wouldn't have matched the offer. I think we are dealing with semantics here. There were plenty of other WRs receivers available that year if the Pats wanted to go in another direction.

It's not semantics. It's a different situation that you're trying to shoehorn and I'm refusing to accept. Just as signing a franchise player would be different, so is a RFA.

That's just the reality of the CBA.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Fox Sports just reported that a Raiders official says its a trade for a 2010 3rd and 4th rounder with the 4th being conditional

Since NE has no 5th rounder in 2010,if they somehow obtain a 5th rounder before next offseason then the Raiders get a 3rd and a 5th,or right now its a 3rd and a 4th

Anyone else hear this?

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

He was brought in to be a #1 WR. Even if you just call it "generic #1 WR", it's still just a 4 for that position.

Come on...Moss could have and should have gone for a #1. The #4 is not indicative at all of the value. You can't use that as a frame of reference for anything.

Burgess' sack production reads like a mountain peak, and it's been in decline over recent seasons. He's 30 years old and in the last year of his deal.

His sack production might have been down this season, but his QB hurries was still up. That tells me he's getting to the QB. Maybe it wasn't turning into sacks, probably b/c the team defense is weak.

The % of Burgess becoming a starting caliber player is irrelevant. This is a team that drafted about a dozen players this season, and loads up on picks year after year. They just paid more for a conversion project and/or part time pass rusher than for Moss, Gabriel or Starks. Only Dillon cost them more, given that Welker was a RFA situation and not applicable.

I have no problem with the team bringing in Burgess. I happen to think that they overpaid for him, which makes me think there was a much higher level of concern at the OLB position than they were letting on.

Again, throw Moss out, that trade was a joke. Gabriel and Starks both were busts, and we're aiming a little higher for Burgess. Given his track record, he should cost more than those two.

The RFA situation with Welker is applicable, we ended up trading for him outright. We valued him as a 2nd rounder and a 7th rounder. That's been worth it and then some.

Honestly, Dillon is the best comparison - Dillon was coming off of a down year himself.

Again, another factor to consider is that Burgess is a FA, if he leaves, he could go sign a contract that would earn us a 4th or 5th in compensation anyway. That has to be considered when evaluating this trade, the Raiders know they will at least get that if he were to walk.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: Pats acquire DE/OLB Derrick Burgess for draft pick

Who here has spent any time watching Raiders games, there not broadcast that frequently. So can anyone say "i've watched the Raiders for years and i know what Burgess is capable of". These are his strenths and weakness's.

After reading many posts in this thread i came to the conclusion that at least when Burgess is surrounded by talent he produces, when not he struggles because the offense can focus on him. So if thats the case he should do all right here.