Patriots Worst Draft in NFL?

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

If players were great at this, February would see the Super Bowl winners hoist the Millen Trophy.

Mike Singletary would have hoisted his 6th or 10th.

I would have zero problem with Tucker's critique is he did an analysis of why he thinks Solder cannot develop. However, to sit here and base an opinion on 28 April is dumb.

Furthermore, it's ill informed when we know the Giants at 19 and the Colts at 22 wanted him.

The only way to critique a draft is if teams stayed true to their boards and picked the players per their board that they wanted.

Costanzo may very well be better. However, coaching, scheme, injuries will make more difference than scouting and drafting. The draft can only provide the raw material.

 

[Timbo717]

*Snip* 1. He likes Costanzo better than Solder, and said in watching film of Solder, he was overpowered a bunch. *Snip*

I preface this by saying Tucker knows more about football than I do given that he played the game at a much higher level than I ever did. And I am not one to just blindly defend Belichick on everything he does. BUT...let's just look at how the two sides (probably) evaluated these two players. Tucker watched some game film, and read scouting reports from guys like Kiper, McShay, etc. I don't know if Solder went to the combines in person but I believe he did and I doubt Tucker did.

Belichick and the Patriots (most likely) dissected the same film to a MUCH higher degree and did so knowing what they want to do with their O-Line schemes and who they wanted to fit said schemes. Knowing what they believe could be fixed and what couldn't. Tucker does not really have that knowledge, he can only speculate on schemes.

Belichick and/or scouts watched him IN PERSON. Dante did a workout with him IN PERSON. I believe they have a new assistant coach who worked with Solder IN PERSON at Colorado in 2010 all year as strength and conditioning coach. Tucker watched (most likely) less game film than the pats did and had (most likely) zero personal contact with Solder.

I like Solder but understand where critics are coming from.
Dependable: Played all but two snaps over the last THREE years
Smart:Graduated with a 3.5 GPA in Biology and has taken classes towards a second degree.
Leadership: He was a team captain and MVP of his team
Accolades: Best OL-man in the Big 12 (voted as a finalist for best OL in the country).
Body Type: He has put on 75 lbs since he started at Colorado and still has something like 8-10% body fat and a sub-5.0 40 yard dash. So he works hard in the weight room and should be able to build the core strength critics believe he lacks.

His critics have valid points, he's a somewhat raw talent and needs to show he can bend and keep his good footwork in the NFL game. But this isn't some 6'8" fat @$%. This is a guy in great shape and will be working with one of the the best OL coaches in the league.

TLDR Version: I respect Tucker's opinion, but Belichick and Co. had a far more intensive analysis of these two guys. Tucker knows more than you and I given he played the game in the NFL, but he is most likely evaluating based on a lot of the same info that you or I have access to.

 

[ausbacker]

I preface this by saying Tucker knows more about football than I do given that he played the game at a much higher level than I ever did. And I am not one to just blindly defend Belichick on everything he does. BUT...let's just look at how the two sides (probably) evaluated these two players. Tucker watched some game film, and read scouting reports from guys like Kiper, McShay, etc. I don't know if Solder went to the combines in person but I believe he did and I doubt Tucker did.

Belichick and the Patriots (most likely) dissected the same film to a MUCH higher degree and did so knowing what they want to do with their O-Line schemes and who they wanted to fit said schemes. Knowing what they believe could be fixed and what couldn't. Tucker does not really have that knowledge, he can only speculate on schemes.

Belichick and/or scouts watched him IN PERSON. Dante did a workout with him IN PERSON. I believe they have a new assistant coach who worked with Solder IN PERSON at Colorado in 2010 all year as strength and conditioning coach. Tucker watched (most likely) less game film than the pats did and had (most likely) zero personal contact with Solder.

I like Solder but understand where critics are coming from.
Dependable: Played all but two snaps over the last THREE years
Smart:Graduated with a 3.5 GPA in Biology and has taken classes towards a second degree.
Leadership: He was a team captain and MVP of his team
Accolades: Best OL-man in the Big 12 (voted as a finalist for best OL in the country).
Body Type: He has put on 75 lbs since he started at Colorado and still has something like 8-10% body fat and a sub-5.0 40 yard dash. So he works hard in the weight room and should be able to build the core strength critics believe he lacks.

His critics have valid points, he's a somewhat raw talent and needs to show he can bend and keep his good footwork in the NFL game. But this isn't some 6'8" fat @$%. This is a guy in great shape and will be working with one of the the best OL coaches in the league.

TLDR Version: I respect Tucker's opinion, but Belichick and Co. had a far more intensive analysis of these two guys. Tucker knows more than you and I given he played the game in the NFL, but he is most likely evaluating based on a lot of the same info that you or I have access to.

There's a difference between being a player in a system and being an identifier of talent to suit a system. Tucker hasn't demonstrated any evaluation skills in a professional environment to suggest he knows any more than most casual observers. What he would know is x's and o's better than most.

I think that's where most people have drawn issue with his "analysis".

 

[randomk1]

It really depends on how this works out for us. It can be a great draft or it can be horrible....i guess you can say that for any draft. Right now my mood is just wait and see.

 

[BradyManny]

I was listening to Ross Tucker on SIRIUS NFL Radio today. He said the Patriots draft was not just bad it was "awful". He went through each draft pick and said their draft may not only have been one of the worst, but was probably THE worst draft. I'm not posting this here so that folks will bash the guy, because he's actually really good overall. Here is some of what he said:

1. He likes Costanzo better than Solder, and said in watching film of Solder, he was overpowered a bunch.

2. I think all he said about the UVA CB Dowling was that he was hurt alot last year.

3. He didn't so much mind them taking an RB, but he thought taking two of them was stupid, particularly when they could have taken a DE or OLB, and that with this being one of the best DE drafts ever, it's amazing they didn't get one.

4. On Mallet he said a third round pick will sign a 4 year contract. Brady just signed a 4 year contract, and he questioned what they could get for the guy being that he might not even play to show people what he has. He said they might get a 2nd for him, and that is nothing. He hated the pick.

5. He liked that they gave Cannon a chance despite his illness, but said he totally was NOT the type of OLman the Patriots draft. He said OLman that size are not what the Patriots do.

Hmm, whose word on Solder v Castonzo should we take, Scar & BB's or Tucker's?

As for Mallet - yes, Brady will still be a Patriot when Mallet hits (restricted) free agency, but that wasn't the point. We didn't take Mallet to be Brady's successor - we took him b/c he was a QB with a 1st round grade available at 74. He'll be cheap as dirt for four years. I don't think any team has stopped on gone "man, we have too many good quarterbacks, this is really killing our team."

3rd round picks in the draft probably fail to become starting players at least 50-70% of the time if I had to guess. It's a low risk pick.

On the Cannon pick - clearly Belichick has made it a priority to make the line bigger. He's grabbed two 6 foot 8 inch tackles in the past few years, and now has a mammoth guard in Cannon. It's a trend - of course, they are all still athletic, which is the defining trait of a Patriot lineman.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I really want to hear what Eugene Chung thought of our draft,now he was such a great OL,his opinion would be respectable

 

[patsfaninpa]

What's weird about the Pats draft. It was totally the BPA. Haven't had free-agency yet. So, you really just had to take the bpa with an eye towards your roster for this and next year. When you go BPA, it usually works out in the long run. When you try to fill a need(with a lesser rated player or poor scheme fit), you are much more likely to reach.

IMO we got 3 first rounders; Solder, Darling and Mallett. A solid 2nd in Vereen. Another guy who would have been a 2nd given a clean bill of health in Marcus Cannon. I may be the only one. But, I like the Stevan Ridley pick. I had us picking him in the 4th. But, if you watched LSU at all this year. They had no passing attack. Yet, he still ran for 1200yds playing in the SEC. Oh, he's an outstanding special teams player too. Lee Smith sounds like a good fit too.

 

[Timbo717]

What's weird about the Pats draft. It was totally the BPA. Haven't had free-agency yet. So, you really just had to take the bpa with an eye towards your roster for this and next year. When you go BPA, it usually works out in the long run. When you try to fill a need(with a lesser rated player or poor scheme fit), you are much more likely to reach.

IMO we got 3 first rounders; Solder, Darling and Mallett. A solid 2nd in Vereen. Another guy who would have been a 2nd given a clean bill of health in Marcus Cannon. I may be the only one. But, I like the Stevan Ridley pick. I had us picking him in the 4th. But, if you watched LSU at all this year. They had no passing attack. Yet, he still ran for 1200yds playing in the SEC. Oh, he's an outstanding special teams player too. Lee Smith sounds like a good fit too.

Great points. And I think it was rumored that the Bears actually were considering taking Cannon at the bottom of the first round before he was diagnosed. So you could argue it was four first-round talents.

 

[Doggin94it]

Do not listen to these people, no one can grade a draft for at least a couple years down the road

Except, of course, the guys who give the Pats a good grade. *they* know what they're talking about . . .

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Belichick and/or scouts watched him IN PERSON. Dante did a workout with him IN PERSON. I believe they have a new assistant coach who worked with Solder IN PERSON at Colorado in 2010 all year as strength and conditioning coach. Tucker watched (most likely) less game film than the pats did and had (most likely) zero personal contact with Solder.

And that guy was also at Fresno State when Mankins was there.

But, quite simply: Tucker v. Scar. Whose opinion do you trust more?

 

[Doggin94it]

So it's your gut against BB's knowledge, years of experience and record of success.

Man, that's a tough one.

Belichick doesn't exactly have a great record in the draft - although his past two drafts have been much better than his prior several years. If you were talking about Ozzie Newsome, you might have a point.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Belichick doesn't exactly have a great record in the draft - although his past two drafts have been much better than his prior several years. If you were talking about Ozzie Newsome, you might have a point.

Belichick's draft record is infinately better than your posting record.

Can we assume this is a backdoor compliment?

 

[Synovia]

I was listening to Ross Tucker on SIRIUS NFL Radio today. He said the Patriots draft was not just bad it was "awful". He went through each draft pick and said their draft may not only have been one of the worst, but was probably THE worst draft. I'm not posting this here so that folks will bash the guy, because he's actually really good overall. Here is some of what he said:

And last year, the Media though the Patriots wasted a first round pick on a special teams guy.

And the year before, they wasted a 2nd round pick on a tackle who had a 6th round grade.


The media uses the nfl scouting service for their player grades. The patriots don't, they have their own scouts. It should be obvious that these systems don't match up.

 

[Doggin94it]

Belichick's draft record is infinately better than your posting record.

Can we assume this is a backdoor compliment?

Awww . . . I've been insulted by someone who can't spell "infinitely". Should I tell you how bad that makes me feel? I'm sure you would care if you knew . . .

 

[Synovia]

5. He liked that they gave Cannon a chance despite his illness, but said he totally was NOT the type of OLman the Patriots draft. He said OLman that size are not what the Patriots do.

What the Patriots do? According to what?


Seems to me, that every year, the Patriots do something different. They were a power running team with an elite defense in 2003 and 2004. They were a spread team in 2007. They've swapped back and forth between zone blocking and drive blocking several times. Theyv'e changed their base defense several times. They've gone from TE heavy to playing almost no TEs, back to TE heavy.


The only thing the patriots "DO" consistently, is change.

 

[Doggin94it]

Belichick's draft record is infinately better than your posting record.

Can we assume this is a backdoor compliment?

BTW - Belichick's drafting record, through the 2008 draft, was abysmal. He would hit on first round draft picks at an average rate, and get almost nothing out of the rest of the draft. Obviously, 2009 and 2010 have changed that trend, but it remains to be seen if that's a real improvement or just random variance.

In 2008, you guys got Mayo and nothing else (Wheatley and Wilhite were the best of the rest, which should say something)

2007 got you Merriweather (who is mediocre) and nothing else.

2006 got you Gostkowski, and nothing else.

2005 was probably his best draft before 2010 - it got you Mankins, mediocre contributors in Sanders, Hobbs and Kaczur, and the Cassel lottery ticket

2004 was Wilfork and Ben Watson's minimal contributions, and nothing else

2003 was a good draft for you - Warren, Samuel in the 4th, and Koppen

2002 - Branch, Jarvis Green, and David Givens

2001 - Seymour, Matt Light, and nothing else.

Not exactly the track record of a draft-genius. He's no Matt Millen, but Belichick definitely isn't the guy you would take to make your selections if you could tap anyone in the league to do it.

 

[Bostonian1962]

So, since I posted this, I've read alot of the draft grades and most aren't that good. Most center around them not getting a DE/OLB. First, yes it stinks that they again failed to address the lack of pass rush on this team. I HATE that.

However, can you give a team a bad grade simply on not meeting needs in the draft? In other words, what if Solder and Cannon, along with Vollmer and others turn out to give this team one of the best and youngest offensive lines if the NFL? What if both RBs they drafted turn a very old RB corp, into a young and highly effective RB corp, along with the Law Firm? What if Rowling gives the Patriots TWO lock-down cornerbacks for the next decade?

My point is, what if they hit on their draft picks? They clearly drafted for value. Again, I hate that the value didn't match their needs, but the value approach usually works.

For example, there were about 8 DEs drafted in the first round. Their were 3 CBs. Let's say Dowling was their 2nd or 3rd rated CB in the draft, and the next DE available there was their 9th rated DE. Should they have gone off the board for need?

Or, let's take what they did passing on Cam Jordan. What if they had Solder as their #9 overall prospect, and Jordan was their 22nd. Should they have drafted need, and not followed their months of work on their board?

They were true to their draft boards, and this could end up being a great draft. We desperately need a 5 Technique DE, and maybe an OLB, but again they stayed true to their board.

Thoughts?

 

[Synovia]

Teams like the Saints always look great for being aggressive. The question is next year, will the Saints rather have Mark Ingram, or whoever is the best player available at the time the Pats are picking, along with this year's second round pick. Every year this a justification for why a certain player was worth trading up for; rarely is it actually true.

Exactly. You have to hit a grand slam with a pick to make it worth trading up like the Saints did.


Does anyone really believe Mark Ingram is worth the 17th pick in the draft( A RB who isn't that big, and isn't that fast)? Because thats the absolute LEAST the Saints just paid for him.

More likely, they just paid about the 12th pick in the draft for Mark Ingram.


Ingram needs to be Adrian Peterson, or Chris Johnson for this to work out in their favor.

 

[WhiZa]

To be fair, the guys on Siruis NFL radio say things like this to spark conversation. I listen to them and some of their arguments make no sense, but it gives them something to do to pass the time. His comments aren't even worth a rebuttal considering he didn't mention the trades, and each point is flawed in one way or the other. Don't put any clout into it.

 

[Doggin94it]

Exactly. You have to hit a grand slam with a pick to make it worth trading up like the Saints did.


Does anyone really believe Mark Ingram is worth the 17th pick in the draft( A RB who isn't that big, and isn't that fast)? Because thats the absolute LEAST the Saints just paid for him.

More likely, they just paid about the 12th pick in the draft for Mark Ingram.


Ingram needs to be Adrian Peterson, or Chris Johnson for this to work out in their favor.

On what possible theory? If you're going by the draft value chart, remember that picks from the next year's draft have a value one round below the actual round. They traded a late first round value for a late first round pick.