Patriots Training Camp, Day 12 (@ Philadephia)

[TyronePoole]

We have no way of knowing if the next 31 teams would have drafted Tavon because teams are more protective of their draft board than a Amish father is
protective of his daughter's hymen. Hence there's no true basis to call something a reach unless you had post-draft access to all 32 team draft boards and even then that's all hindsight.

But nah, I'm probably wrong and you can totally know what other teams are going to do because they aren't cloak and dagger about the draft at all and everyone who wasn't picked at the exact number that is a consensus of internet football experts was a reach.

Interestingly, here's a post from LolDeus admitting as much and then going on to describe fans post hoc draft analysis as a "system." Something something cake and eating it.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...tter-if-your-pick-considered-reach-page4.html

This quote is true, for the most part. However, we all know that the teams don't hand out their draft boards to the media prior to the draft. What they do hand out is as much misinformation as possible, in the hopes of throwing other teams off about the players they want. They then follow up the draft with a host of new lies ("he was the #1 receiver on our board even though we picked him in the 7th round", etc...).

This is why we can't evaluate 'reaches' on a team by team basis, and have to base it on the general pool of knowledge. Teams leave the media, and the fans, no choice but to use an alternate method of evaluating how the draft went, as far as 'winners', 'losers', 'reaches', 'sliders', etc... The fact that the system being used isn't perfect does not mean that the system should be tossed out. Sometimes in life, second-rate is the best you can do.

btw, iirc this was around the time that Deus felt it really important to dogmatically announce that Mayo was a reach. "But we have no choice but to talk out of our asses." lol

 

[Kontradiction]

We have no way of knowing if the next 31 teams would have drafted Tavon because teams are more protective of their draft board than a Amish father is
protective of his daughter's hymen. Hence there's no true basis to call something a reach unless you had post-draft access to all 32 team draft boards and even then that's all hindsight.

But nah, I'm probably wrong and you can totally know what other teams are going to do because they aren't cloak and dagger about the draft at all and everyone who wasn't picked at the exact number that is a consensus of internet football experts was a reach.

I had this debate, pretty extensively, in the Harmon thread. But if you look at seven round mocks pre-draft and weigh them vs. the way the draft turned out, the "experts" are usually pretty close to predicting the way things are going to go, which is pretty impressive for a concept that is such a crap shoot. The reason is because those "experts" usually either have someone on the inside that discusses their draft philosophy, or it is already somewhat well known.

As for the term "reach" people use it like it's some sort of offensive word. It's really not unless the player in question later turned out to disappoint. Case in point...

1. Vollmer was a reach when he was drafted. He has since outperformed his draft selection.

2. Tavon Wilson was a reach when he was drafted. He has underperformed compared to his draft selection.

3. Duron Harmon was a reach. We have no idea what he will do yet.

The term "reach", at least IMO, is only raising your ire because Tavon Wilson, to this point, has been a disappointment.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Another training camp thread bites the dust.....

 

[TyronePoole]

Man, I got to give you credit. This page has been nothing but short, snarky posts from you and they are delight to read compared to the reams of blowhard know-it-allism you normally vomit onto my screen like it's a paid gig.

There's hope for you yet, son. Now if we could just get a single post out of you where you didn't sound like the most bitter dude on the planet we'd be getting somewhere.

This is what he does when he knows he's on really shaky ground, he makes vague declarations about how right he is about some secret point he's not going to share with the group. That way when he changes his mind later on there's room to go back and shift the goalposts. Deus 101.

 

[Deus Irae]

Man, I got to give you credit. This page has been nothing but short, snarky posts from you and they are delight to read compared to the reams of blowhard know-it-allism you normally vomit onto my screen like it's a paid gig.

There's hope for you yet, son. Now if we could just get a single post out of you where you didn't sound like the most bitter dude on the planet we'd be getting somewhere.

Yeah, that post with the definitions was all about bitterness. Great call there! :thumb:

 

[RobAllan]

Man, I got to give you credit. This page has been nothing but short, snarky posts from you and they are delight to read compared to the reams of blowhard know-it-allism you normally vomit onto my screen like it's a paid gig.

There's hope for you yet, son. Now if we could just get a single post out of you where you didn't sound like the most bitter dude on the planet we'd be getting somewhere.

This isn't over the top at all...

If people seem cranky with you it's because nothing you say is consistent or makes any sort of sense. And if people disagree with you, you marginalize their opinions with your "Madden" nonsense that you were engaging in not 2 pages before. So that's a pot-kettle situation.

If there's vomit on the screen it's most certainly drooling off of your keyboard and not Deus'.

How about contributing something constructive instead of just random venom while accusing others of being bitter?

 

[GIF Man]

This isn't over the top at all...

If people seem cranky with you it's because nothing you say is consistent or makes any sort of sense. And if people disagree with you, you marginalize their opinions with your "Madden" nonsense that you were engaging in not 2 pages before. So that's a pot-kettle situation.

If there's vomit on the screen it's most certainly drooling off of your keyboard and not Deus'.

How about contributing something constructive instead of just random venom while accusing others of being bitter?

 

[BradyToAmendola]

I disagree with this part. I think they are quite different philosophically, which makes arguing against your next section kind of moot. In my mind, you and I are working off of different definitions of the word "reach". Your definition may be technically correct from a results based standpoint, but IMO my definition fits the spirit of the argument better. If the Patriots want Tavon Wilson, they have to select him before another team does.

It doesn't matter if only one other team would have, it's possible that if they didn't take him at 48, he would have been gone by their next pick. I find it more likely that they had reason to believe that, than they simply decided to take a player drastically before was needed out of arrogance or desperation.

So you're basically saying that it is impossible for any team to reach for a draft pick, because that team feels they're taking him at the appropriate spot.

It was a reach, it is plainly simple to see that. Teams make mistakes in the draft constantly, it is okay to admit to the Patriots not correctly valuing the board in that situation.

 

[RobAllan]

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but it does make me think I might need to get tested for heavy metal poisoning of some sort...

Also, where is Ernie? I hope AHern didn't get him...

 

[Kontradiction]

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but it does make me think I might need to get tested for heavy metal poisoning of some sort...

Also, where is Ernie? I hope AHern didn't get him...

He's a gimmick poster (and a very good one at that). It likely doesn't mean anything.

 

[belichick010405]

Man, I got to give you credit. This page has been nothing but short, snarky posts from you and they are delight to read compared to the reams of blowhard know-it-allism you normally vomit onto my screen like it's a paid gig.

There's hope for you yet, son. Now if we could just get a single post out of you where you didn't sound like the most bitter dude on the planet we'd be getting somewhere.

There is so much more to life than having to read what he writes on these message boards. In other news, I stayed at a Holiday Express and I just switched from the lousy cable company to DirectTv and I am pumped and jacked to watch all 23 games of the Patriots this year.

BTW - I don't know why Deus is a Patriots fan. Based on everything that I have read, he hates this team.

 

[jsull87]

Nice trolling

Off topic but why did you consider that trolling? It just sounded like his opinion on the term reach.

 

[fnordcircle]

Off topic but why did you consider that trolling? It just sounded like his opinion on the term reach.

He was being satirical. Eg, that someone saying that could only be trolling implying that it is a ridiculous opinion.

Oops, sorry for the random venom everyone. I just flew off the handle.

 

[RodThePat]

There is so much more to life than having to read what he writes on these message boards. In other news, I stayed at a Holiday Express and I just switched from the lousy cable company to DirectTv and I am pumped and jacked to watch all 23 games of the Patriots this year.

BTW - I don't know why Deus is a Patriots fan. Based on everything that I have read, he hates this team.

Nah, Deus is alright. He just suffers from a severe aversion to homerism, which fuels some venomous posts at times.

 

[Ive_Killed_People]

Nah, Deus is alright. He just suffers from a severe aversion to homerism, which fuels some venomous posts at times.

Homerism? WTF do you expect on a team's forum? Uninterested observers???? I prefer the word 'fan' over 'homer' as we are not reporters or announcers we are allowed to be biased. Homerism? My Lord man you act like rooting for a team should be shameful.....this aint the Jets.

 

[borg]

All you have to do is call them and threaten to quit. They'll lower the amount for you. I got it down to $12/month but it started around higher than that. I will be calling them again in a few months to "cancel my subscription".

Years ago, after paying about $140/yr for SiriusXM, I didn't renew. 1 week later the phone rings....Sirius.....they gave me 3 cheaper offers..... no no no. Finally signed up for.....5 months for $24. And the week before the contract is up I call up to quit, they go thru the song and dance...no no no. Then they transfer me to the cancellation desk where I renew my 5 months $24 plan.......This has worked 5 times. My relatives now play the same game. It gets to the point where they basically ask....How much do you want to pay.
$12 /month is close to full price

 

[Christian]

Tavon Wilson WAS a reach at the time. He is still viewed as a reach because he hasn't performed.

Duron Harmon WAS a reach at the time...but we don't know the results yet.

Sebastian Vollmer also was a reach at the TIME, but is no longer considered one due to his play.

The bottom line is, we don't have a problem with it if the player turns out. We DO have a problem with it when the player does not turn out (in time of course for both scenarios). But I consider myself to be a pretty unbiased fan...and pretty even down the line when it comes to these kinds of topics.

This is my opinion: We could've gotten a player who was more LIKELY to contribute at that spot where Harmon or Wilson was drafted...this based of course on a number of different variables (Scouting reports, film, etc). I would have had no problem if we drafted one of those "more likely to contribute" players and they ended up being a bust. It happens. You can't predict this stuff. My problem comes when you take a player who is clearly less likely to be a contributor and then he under performs...which is what has happened with Tavon (so far). But that's BB's call.

Overall, you're going to hit and miss. BB's hit on alot...and he's missed on alot...just like everyone else. He's made brilliant decisions in the draft...and he's made boneheaded ones. Ras-I Dowling is a perfect example of a player I didn't have a problem with them drafting (even though he was a border line reach), because he was a guy that scouts said had the ability to be a true #1 corner. Injuries have plagued him and that was a risk the Pats took. I don't have a problem with that risk given the player's clear talent coming out. Sometimes those kinds of decisions really pan out, see Gronk.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Overall, you're going to hit and miss. BB's hit on alot...and he's missed on alot...just like everyone else. He's made brilliant decisions in the draft...and he's made boneheaded ones. Ras-I Dowling is a perfect example of a player I didn't have a problem with them drafting (even though he was a border line reach), because he was a guy that scouts said had the ability to be a true #1 corner. Injuries have plagued him and that was a risk the Pats took. I don't have a problem with that risk given the player's clear talent coming out. Sometimes those kinds of decisions really pan out, see Gronk.

As patchick pointed out in the draft forum, it's NOT common for ANY team to hit on its first four draft picks.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

NE receivers have a big day against the eagles

Tom Brady and his receivers put on a clinic vs. Eagles - Sports - The Boston Globe

Tom Brady, Patriots air it out | Boston Herald

good stuff

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: Patriots Training Camp, Day 12 (@ Philadephia)

2. Tavon Wilson was a reach when he was drafted. He has underperformed compared to his draft selection.

If you're talking in terms or statistics outside of Casey Hayward I'd be curious to know who you view as outperforming Wilson in that round or even the 3rd.

Look at the snaps, the stats, watch the game tape; there wasn't a safety taken after Wilson who was even close.