Patriots Release Additional Deflategate E-mails

[Deus Irae]

But we know that a sloppy job was not done. So it was either not done or it was done with an accuracy consistent with the measurements.

I can deflate them with a shotgun in 10 seconds. Would that mean the Patriots only needed 10 seconds...

If the balls had reportedly, and arguably, been deflated via shotgun, yes.

 

[Joker]

Yes. The Patriots were not, however, charged with the failure to deflate NFL footballs.

charged by whom? a legal representative of the court system of the United States? This is how preposterous this all is...please NFL, charge ME with ANYTHING...I would love nothing more than suing your myopic glutes into the furthest reaches of interstellar space.

 

[Tony2046]

Reality (based upon evidence): McNally was in the bathroom for about 100 seconds
Reality (based upon evidence): The balls can be taken into a bathroom and deflated in under 90 seconds
Reality (based solely upon the 2 pieces of evidence above): McNally had enough time to give him AN OPPORTUNITY to deflate the balls.

The rest (Brady likes them at ____, can't be exact, etc...) is irrelevant to the reality above. You, along with several others, are confusing the existence of evidence with your opinion regarding the persuasiveness of that evidence. It's the same thing that RayClay refused to get through his skull some time back.

No matter the crime their will always be some evidence whether circumstantial or not which may be used to convict someone whether they are innocent or not. It is the combination of evidence that brings us closer to the actual reality of what happened. Yes he could have released the air out of the footballs. Absolutely. IF he did it would have averaged 0.3 psi per football and not the 1 or 2 psi originally reported. The reality is that the NFL effectively destroyed the only evidence they had when they re-inflated those footballs at half time instead of keeping them as evidence which sent them into a tailspin trying to prove something they "thought" had happened without knowing anything about the Ideal Gas Law. The reality is that they had two gauges that were out of calibration in which one of them would have vindicated the Pats and the other leads you to a "more possible than not" conclusion. To me this whole wells report is a scramble to cover up the NFL's total incompetence in the initial sting operation. I agree with you some of the evidence is damning when looked at on a microcosmic level but when you look at the whole body of work it looks like they NFL had a sting operations against a guy who may or may not have just checked those footballs to ensure they were not at 16 psi without the knowledge of Brady. That is what it looks like to me at this point.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes he could have released the air out of the footballs. Absolutely. IF he did it would have averaged 0.3 psi per football and not the 1 or 2 psi originally reported.

Yes. That's all that's been in play during the back and forth. People have tried to ignore that, for reasons of their own.

To me this whole wells report is a scramble to cover up the NFL's total incompetence in the initial sting operation. I agree with you some of the evidence is damning when looked at on a microcosmic level but when you look at the whole body of work it looks like they NFL had a sting operations against a guy who may or may not have just checked those footballs to ensure they were not at 16 psi without the knowledge of Brady. That is what it looks like to me at this point.

I think the Wells report is the product of a man who was looking to get a particular result for his client, and who was looking for it despite not having sufficient evidence to legitimately produce that result. Wells, trying for the result, ended up with a terrible report that's easily shredded. Even many of the people who can't get off their mental hamster wheel of "Well, I think it's clear that they did something, but..." have acknowledged just how ridiculous the report is. They just refuse to take that point and make the next step.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

If the balls had reportedly, and arguably, been deflated via shotgun, yes.

Yes, but since the ball deflation was not consistent with a shotgun a test more similar to the allegation was necessary with a corresponding adjustment in time. So the quality of the test is based off it's similarity to the alleged crime. The alleged crime has some very specific parameters. Using a needle, in 100 seconds, and to a level of precision.

I simply am not convinced it can be done using the parameters known, and alleged. I am not saying it's impossible. But I am skeptical and would like to see it tested.

 

[raduray]

Well that's a little different than the NY Daily News video and whether it can be done accurately is important. I'll take a look at that section of the Exponent report when I can, but in this case assuming the non-logo gauge was used initially and factoring in the ideal gas law leaves us with .3 or .4 psi of the half time numbers, so McNally has to be that accurate in the bathroom. Good luck to the "prosecutor" selling that

I'm repeating an earlier post I made, but here how it could have happened. Say all balls started out at 12.5 psi. Say it takes 3 seconds to deflate a ball to the target level. All McNally would have had to do was insert the needle for a three count in each ball. Would there be an error? Yes, but not significant. It's not productive to argue this point as there are many more fruitful avenues to discredit Wells.

There was definitely an opportunity. However, there's no direct evidence that this is what happened and given Wells' own conclusion that the scientific evidence was non-conclusive, Occam's razor would lead us to the conclusion that McNally just took a leak.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, but since the ball deflation was not consistent with a shotgun a test more similar to the allegation was necessary with a corresponding adjustment in time. So the quality of the test is based off it's similarity to the alleged crime. The alleged crime has some very specific parameters. Using a needle, in 100 seconds, and to a level of precision.

I simply am not convinced it can be done using the parameters known, and alleged. I am not saying it's impossible. But I am skeptical and would like to see it tested.

It was tested. Repeatedly. I even pointed to an example. You're arguing a dead issue. There is absolutely no question that a man could use a needle and deflate 12 balls in 90 seconds.

And your argument of "to a level of precision" doesn't apply in this case. There is no uniform specified number to have gotten to, because we don't have certainty of the PSI before the bathroom, and we don't have either certainty of the PSI after the bathroom/before the game or uniformity of the PSI upon halftime measuring.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

It was tested. Repeatedly. I even pointed to an example. You're arguing a dead issue. There is absolutely no question that a man could use a needle and deflate 12 balls in 90 seconds.

And your argument of "to a level of precision" doesn't apply in this case. There is no uniform specified number to have gotten to, because we don't have certainty of the PSI before the bathroom, and we don't have either certainty of the PSI after the bathroom/before the game or uniformity of the PSI upon halftime measuring.

Precision isn't "a specified number to have gotten to." The entire case is made off an assumed precision from the ref, so we can certainly use that precision to test the accusation.

Basically this comes down to you think the test was sufficient, I dont. You apparently think the test that myself and others would like to see is pointless. I don't. There's nothing more to really say then, so have a good evening.

 

[Deus Irae]

Precision isn't "a specified number to have gotten to." The entire case is made off an assumed precision from the ref, so we can certainly use that precision to test the accusation.

No, you can't.

Walt Anderson later
recalled that when tested pre-game, most of the Patriots footballs measured at 12.5 pounds per
square inch-gauge (psig), though there may have been one or two that measured at 12.6 psig. In
addition, two game balls initially measured below 12.5 psig and were inflated and adjusted to 12.5 psig.

Even the claim with regards to the first measurements doesn't provide either ball-specific, or uniform, pressure readings.

 

[Joker]

I think the Wells report is the product of a man who was looking to get a particular result for his client, and who was looking for it despite not having sufficient evidence to legitimately produce that result. Wells, trying for the result, ended up with a terrible report that's easily shredded. Even many of the people who can't get off their mental hamster wheel of "Well, I think it's clear that they did something, but..." have acknowledged just how ridiculous the report is. They just refuse to take that point and make the next step.

I'm not going to "winner" this post because it is far, far beyond "winner". The question must be asked, WHY was this man even asked to look for this particular result?What are the motives and who are the people BEHIND this?

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not going to "winner" this post because it is far, far beyond "winner". The question must be asked, WHY was this man even asked to look for this particular result?What are the motives and who are the people BEHIND this?

I would assert that the first question to be asked is:

Why the hell did the NFL think this was a good system of investigation/judgment/punishment in the first place?

 

[AQPE]

I'm as pro-Pats in regard to this whole charade as anyone, but reading through this thread, it occurred to me that if McNally did in fact do some deflating (rather than urinating) in the bathroom, he wouldn't necessarily have had to deflate all of the balls, he could have made a judgment that some (perhaps most) of the balls already felt "OK" and deflated only a few of them. So the idea that it isn't possible for him to have deflated balls in that bathroom is not really logical, IMHO, much as I hate to even entertain a possibility for which I think he is zero actual evidence.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm not going to "winner" this post because it is far, far beyond "winner". The question must be asked, WHY was this man even asked to look for this particular result?What are the motives and who are the people BEHIND this?

I think we sort of know. What I can't fathom is how/why Wells got millions for that contrived volume of nonsense. Multiple MILLIONS of DOLLARS! And why is Wells the go-to guy for league prosecution reports?

 

[raduray]

I'm as pro-Pats in regard to this whole charade as anyone, but reading through this thread, it occurred to me that if McNally did in fact do some deflating (rather than urinating) in the bathroom, he wouldn't necessarily have had to deflate all of the balls, he could have made a judgment that some (perhaps most) of the balls already felt "OK" and deflated only a few of them. So the idea that it isn't possible for him to have deflated balls in that bathroom is not really logical, IMHO, much as I hate to even entertain a possibility for which I think he is zero actual evidence.

Didn't the refs fill them to 12.5 psi just a few minutes earlier? They would have all had to be deflated the same.

 

[ChesBay]

What are the motives and who are the people BEHIND this?

Exactly. It does not matter whether 12 (or 13) balls could be deflated in 95 seconds. What really matters are those motives...whether by Goodell himself (create a distraction from his past incompetency) or Goodell's underlings (jealousy, payback for tampering charge, "parity", etc.)....and the resultant cover-up through the Wells Report.

And speaking of motives, why would the Patriots seek to deflate those balls by an average of 0.1 psi (the 0.3 psi is the worst case situation)? Even if they had figured out a method for sticking a needle in to achieve a certain deflation, why 0.1 psi? That only represents a 0.37% advantage (or a 1% advantage for the 0.3 psi folks), meaning the evidence does not substantiate any motive.

 

[The Gr8est]

I think we sort of know. What I can't fathom is how/why Wells got millions for that contrived volume of nonsense. Multiple MILLIONS of DOLLARS! And why is Wells the go-to guy for league prosecution reports?

I'm betting Wells has done his last "investigation" for the NFL.

We can certainly hope so. What other defendant team will sign off on Wells after this fiasco?

 

[Fencer]

Video surveillance for a single seater? I sure hope you're wrong. LOL

The video surveillance is outside in the hallways.

 

[1960Pats]

This shows definitively that the ONLY time tampering could have occurred was during the 95 second bathroom visit. And the Wells report never shows proof that this can be accomplished in 95 seconds.

So the Wells report shows neither opportunity nor motive (since never did Brady ask for balls out of spec).

A brain dead monkey could win this case.

Fraudger actually qualifies as a bran dead monkey. Should we worry?

 

[1960Pats]

I think we sort of know. What I can't fathom is how/why Wells got millions for that contrived volume of nonsense. Multiple MILLIONS of DOLLARS! And why is Wells the go-to guy for league prosecution reports?

Just a guess, but maybe the reason the NFL uses Wells is that he can be manipulated. The NFL also has deep pockets and come under nobody else's jurisdiction. I'd like to see that change and maybe this nonsense will help.

 

[RunAmok]

People keep harping on the fact that 90 seconds would not be enough time to accurately measure the PSI and bring it down to a tareted level. Which is very true. But that ignores the possibility that McNally thought he was short of time and decided that even if he couldn't bring the ball PSI level down exactly it was better to do it inexactly than nothing at all. So he takes a needle and sticks it in the ball, counts to 2, and then moves on to the next one. Not optimal but better than nothing at all. In the end the ball is a bit softer, which is the entire point.

That bathroom break will neither damn or exonerate us. Someone needs to investigate other games and the opportunities that McNally may have had to deflate the balls prior to them. If no opportunities can be found then it can be safely concluded that he did not tamper with the balls because there is no way he'd do it for just a single game. If on the other hand its discovered that McNally acted suspicious with the balls prior to other games then there is a problem.

Actually, McNally had more time since the start of the game had been delayed 10 minutes. I agree that trying to disprove what happened in that bathroom is not going to get us anywhere. It's a theoretical point not worth fighting over when there are so many hard facts that Wells got wrong.