Patriots name Matt Groh as Director of Player Personnel

[Wozzy]

In the lead-up to Super Bowl LII against the Philadelphia Eagles, Patriots cornerback Malcolm Butler and defensive coordinator Matt Patricia traded heated words at practice over the former Super Bowl hero's lack of effort. Butler was demoted. At the team party after New England's loss, Butler responded to teammates asking why he was benched by saying, 'These dudes,' referring to the coaches, according to the book, 'these mother f---ers.'"

The story doesn't mention the argument was between Butler and Little Steven, and Little Steven went crying to Fat Matt, who proceeded to bench him with Bill's backing. Fact.

Provide a link?

Sounds like gossip, not “fact.”

Facts about Malcolm Butler in 2017 include giving up six touchdowns in coverage, tying for third-most at the position, while also yielding the 11th-most yards at 698 and ranking 108th in yards after the catch at 233. He sucked. Fact.

 

[Gumby]

I like that it's a home grown guy of sorts. I also think it's worth noting that his area is in draft scouting, where Ziegler's was more in pro scouting. So where last year was a big free agency year for the team, their cap is more limiting in 2022, so the draft is their best bet to continue improving. I also like that he's unlikely to jump ship for a GM position elsewhere (at least less likely than Wolf would be if he were promoted and had a good year). I know BB is the final say on all things personnel, but having three different Directors in three years HAS to be disruptive. Hopefully Groh does well and can stabilize that role for a while.

Only issue with your theory is that this is like the year with the fewest draft picks of any year in the past 10, maybe 20 even.

we’ll see if BB does one of his trade quality down for volume; which I would find to be sad. I think Pats can make up for lost late rounders with UDFAs better than anyone. But you can’t get first-2d round talent kn 3-6 rnds.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Hiring the kids of old connections seems bad on the surface. In a glass is half full world, having access to young talent with a life long football background is beneficial. From the outside it appears as if BB expects that everyone pay their dues and earn larger roles. Replacing coaches with younger people with organizational background is less disruptive than bringing in a bunch of experienced coaches from the outside if you are trying to maintain a culture. Another amazing part of sustaining the dynasty. Hopefully it will work out in this case.

Let's put on our skeptic hats for a second. I loves me some BB. I think he's great and does the right thing a lot a lot and that's why he's the GOAT coach NYAHHHHH.... but did you just say he makes everyone pay their dues and earn larger roles? Where did Steve Belichick or Brian Belichick pay their dues? As stunt doubles on Joe Dirt?

It might be that they are just coincidentally the finest defensive minds available. It might also be that the applicant pool has been largely defined by the gene pool. This is sort of a bank-shot off the Flores story... it's not that NE did Flores wrong, the team had nothing to do with that situation. But how many Black coaches can get a foot on that rung of the ladder in NE? Or, how many guys not named Belichick? The number you'd expect minus 2. What can those 2 guys bring that nobody else can, other than cosa nostra style family loyalty? Granted, with witch hunts popping up every 5 minutes, it's got to be tempting. The only thing you could say is you could theorize that maybe that life of leisure thing is a crock, and that boat of his is packed to the gills with various storage/viewing devices and he has taken the boys out since age 6 not to fish but to watch all-22s from the last season. Or something. Which really, probably isn't true, when he could be on Holiday. Chances are, they're not very good, unless the way you get good is lots of BB-time. (That could be, but it's definitely an unproven proposition.) And btw, him evaluating how good either of them are, is a conflict of interest, innit?

Not only did BB whiff on Deebo Samuel in the first round, but he could have snagged a Pro Bowler-level talent such as AJ Brown, DK Metcalf, Mecole Hardman, or Diontae Johnson in the second round, but instead they took JoeJaun Williams!

Then in the 4th round they decided not to draft Hunter Renfrow but instead got Hjalte Froholdt

It was one of the most disastrous drafts in Patriots recent history and helped push Brady out the door and to a team that actually had someone to throw to.

He doesn't hit on WRs much, except in Rds 5, 6, and undrafted LOL.

That said, the stupidest and I mean stupidest proof of bad drafting, by BB or anybody else, is that they "whiffed" on whoever they didn't pick. Oh. Just. STF. Uppppppp. So did every other team in the league, barring the first round, in which we didn't pick last. The draft is indeed a crapshoot. Some teams make out like bandits in a draft or 2, some teams get skunked, and we've been in both categories. Some are good in more drafts than not. Who'd we whiff on at QB the last 20+ drafts? F*, even the backups end up starting somewhere. Talk to me after you crunched the numbers over say 20 seasons and stop rehearsing the cherrypicking melodrama. Respectfully.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

VA fan,
Before answering your point, I am only offering a counter point of view. Personally I would like to see some mix of outside influences included in the coaching staff. As far as the point on paying dues, the nepotism program participants are forced to start in a minor role and earn more responsibility. In many ways, the current round of brain drain is testament that the program is working to produce coaching talent.

 

[PaulThePat]

The story doesn't mention the argument was between Butler and Little Steven, and Little Steven went crying to Fat Matt, who proceeded to bench him with Bill's backing. Fact.

Rule 25.3.1 of the internet. Anyone who ends their post with "Fact" should be ignored.

 

[Rob0729]

Any word if he will be bringing a shovel to the Combines next month?

 

[Sicilian]

but did you just say he makes everyone pay their dues and earn larger roles? Where did Steve Belichick or Brian Belichick pay their dues?

Steve Belichick (2012) and Josh McDaniels (2001) both started as "coaching assistants". Josh McDaniels was promoted to OC in fewer years (2006) than Steve has currently put in (and he still doesn't have the official DC title). Steve has put in as many dues as Josh McDaniels had far as years of service are concerned. The fact he hasn't been officially promoted is a sign that he didn't show as much acumen as Josh did, indicating there is still a merit based system in place here. You can say, "Oh but he only got the coaching asst job because of his dad!" But Josh only got a grad assistant job at Michigan State because his dad knew Nick Saban. Find me a job, in the NFL or otherwise, that isn't 90% about who you know.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Steve Belichick (2012) and Josh McDaniels (2001) both started as "coaching assistants". Josh McDaniels was promoted to OC in fewer years (2006) than Steve has currently put in (and he still doesn't have the official DC title). Steve has put in as many dues as Josh McDaniels had far as years of service are concerned. The fact he hasn't been officially promoted is a sign that he didn't show as much acumen as Josh did, indicating there is still a merit based system in place here. You can say, "Oh but he only got the coaching asst job because of his dad!" But Josh only got a grad assistant job at Michigan State because his dad knew Nick Saban. Find me a job, in the NFL or otherwise, that isn't 90% about who you know.

Think they had an equally hard time getting the first interview? Come on dude. It could turn out Steve/Brian are really good, but that will be a victory of familiarity vs. blind meritocracy. What you can't argue is that the BB spawn are the result of blind hiring.

"Who you know" plays a bigger part in some jobs than others. "Who you know" is often purposely countered because of its known negative features and tendancy toward corruption.

 

[Sicilian]

Think they had an equally hard time getting the first interview? Come on dude. It could turn out Steve/Brian are really good, but that will be a victory of familiarity vs. blind meritocracy. What you can't argue is that the BB spawn are the result of blind hiring.

"Who you know" plays a bigger part in some jobs than others. "Who you know" is often purposely countered because of its known negative features and tendancy toward corruption.

You don't know the bolded part, you're assuming like everyone else. What we do know is that there is no functional difference between how Steve/Brian got their start in the organization compared to anyone else, and they haven't risen any faster than anyone else. Remember that "coaching assistants" are glorified interns. Almost no one hired into that role has any real experience coaching. They get coffee and make copies of gameplans.

The team's success has also been comparable, given they're in the middle of a rebuild. If they were dead last against the pass with Steve coaching the DB's, then he got promoted to DC, that would raise an eyebrow. But as the DB's coach in 2019 they were 2nd in passing yards allowed, first in passer rating against by almost 15 points, and had a 13/25 TD/INT ratio. And you think it's weird he gets promoted?

You've put them in a position where it doesn't matter how well they coach, you're just always going to assume they didn't earn anything because they're Belichicks.

 

[Sect140]

Provide a link?

Sounds like gossip, not “fact.”

Facts about Malcolm Butler in 2017 include giving up six touchdowns in coverage, tying for third-most at the position, while also yielding the 11th-most yards at 698 and ranking 108th in yards after the catch at 233. He sucked. Fact.

Great facts but he was better than who replaced him in the Super Bowl. I still believe the pass coverage would’ve been a little bit better If he had played. Who knows what would’ve happened.

 

[p8ryts]

How old is that Milford/projo article? I can’t find a date on it and the Ziegler supposition is OBE.

M

May of 2021

 

[upstater1]

Question: if we mocked Jets fans for this...


Can we defend the Patriots when fans mock them for this?

 

[Sicilian]

Question: if we mocked Jets fans for this...
View attachment 41231

Can we defend the Patriots when fans mock them for this?
View attachment 41232

Nope, they're both weird as f**k. BUT, while people would still have a little chuckle about it now, if Adam Gase had succeeded as a head coach, it would have been put aside as just a weird little curiosity. But he failed... miserably, so it's lumped in with that failure.

If Steve never succeeds as a DC (if he ever gets that officially), then the same will happen. If he turns into a successful coach, it'll be perceived more as, "Man, the good ones are always weird, aren't they?"

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Nope, they're both weird as f**k. BUT, while people would still have a little chuckle about it now, if Adam Gase had succeeded as a head coach, it would have been put aside as just a weird little curiosity. But he failed... miserably, so it's lumped in with that failure.

If Steve never succeeds as a DC (if he ever gets that officially), then the same will happen. If he turns into a successful coach, it'll be perceived more as, "Man, the good ones are always weird, aren't they?"

Opposite case in point, Pete Carroll at the Patriots. Good looking, well spoken, media friendly, fan friendly. Once chatted with him for 15 minutes post practice at Smithfield as he sat on his dirt bike. Why a HC had time for me is unfathomable. I have zero memory of what was discussed. OK, bring the old guy comments; I can handle it.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

You don't know the bolded part, you're assuming like everyone else.

Yes, I do know the bolded part. To remind you: I said that what you can't argue is that the BB spawn are the result of blind hiring. He knows his own effing name, innit?

What is this, opposite day? Oh yeah, it is. Moving to your next statement...

What we do know is that there is no functional difference between how Steve/Brian got their start in the organization compared to anyone else, and they haven't risen any faster than anyone else.

1. There is a difference in how they got their start. They got their start concurrent with their being the boss' children. That is different. I'll say that it is incredibly likely that they got their start, at least in part, because they are his children.

I'm not saying they're bad at their respective jobs. Maybe we'll all be football-horny about a 1,000-year dynasty of Belichicks in a few years, who knows. All I am saying is that, yes, this is classic, textbook nepotism.

2, They have absolutely risen faster than 100% of the would-be team personnel who were not hired, most of whom are clowning around here lecturing all of us about who we woulda coulda shoulda drafted and how bad every call was that we ever made especially compared to whatever we didn't do.

Remember that "coaching assistants" are glorified interns. Almost no one hired into that role has any real experience coaching. They get coffee and make copies of gameplans.

A lot of positions throughout corporate america -- these teams are corporations, after all, albeit pretty hidebound,, privately held ones -- are internships. Hiring your kids for the internships, once again, freezes out some other kid. Lots of places look askance at that or forbid it. That's especially the case if it's a "plumb" internship, and if you don't think a spot on the NEP coaching staff is a dream at that age -- for anyone except the "legacies," at least -- fck, all I can say is you never waited any tables or set pins in the local bowling alley. Interns on congressional staffs in Washington are in what I'd guess is a pretty similar position... they have to be whip smart and get the boss coffee etc., then be able to write his bullet points, then maybe pick up his kid's suit at the cleaner's, because his kid has a big speech to his alma mater. Blah blah blah, And at least back in the day, they did it free... just in case they get to be serious staffers one day. I'm not one of those guys, by the way. They're hard-core hard-charging driven little type-A workaholics and all that... but MAN did they get pissed.... well, some of them... if the Congressman or Senator decided Jr. got the job, unless/until Jr. demonstrated his chops.

You never heard the phrase "coveted internship?"

The team's success has also been comparable, given they're in the middle of a rebuild. If they were dead last against the pass with Steve coaching the DB's, then he got promoted to DC, that would raise an eyebrow. But as the DB's coach in 2019 they were 2nd in passing yards allowed, first in passer rating against by almost 15 points, and had a 13/25 TD/INT ratio. And you think it's weird he gets promoted?

You've put them in a position where it doesn't matter how well they coach, you're just always going to assume they didn't earn anything because they're Belichicks.

1) I didn't say they were no good. I said their positions there are the product of nepotism. Did he have the DBs, by the way, or the safeties? I thought he moved from safeties to LBs.
2) No, I did not put them in that position. One Bill Belichick did. That is the natural implication of "dynastic thinking."

Once again, whether because of long familiarity with the program, rapport with the top guy, or whatever (not excluding genetics,) it might just work. Hell, Bill himself would work harder to coach up his own kid, for one thing.

But, the analog of that same argument is always the case.... and we still recognize the built-in negatives of this system of succession in, for example, government (Clintons, Bushes, and theorized Trumps notwithstanding,) business, etc.

I'm just saying, the Flores case is making me re-think the loosey-goosey, who-cares,maybe-nepotism-is-good, NFL coaching world.

Think about the developments as a system: This situation is an inroad toward a situation where you'd have a system of patronage in coaching positions, not just a coaching "fraternity," but literal brothers in coaching positions... and meanwhile, in the presence of that system, you have that theatrical pretend Rooney Rule situation locking out the "other" guy.

Isn't that what institutional racism looks like? Nobody's trying to lock out the Black guy, they just prefer other guys, this one time, for this one reason, hey, could have gone either way... but always just goes one way, And I want to repeat -- and I am serious -- in institutional racism, you don't have to be a George Wallace racist. You just have to be blind. Hell you can go home and fight against other kinds of racism as your main cause in life, but still be a contributor to maintaining institutions that result in discriminatory outcomes. So put together all the buddy system, all in the family stuff in the NFL... it's not identical to the whole racial imbalance that resulted in Flores' "can't win" experiences, but doesn't it go a long way toward explaining it?

 

[captain stone]

...And scouts get things wrong too-- are there examples of Belichick pushing, say, Dugger when scouts were like, no go with Winfield? We don't know.

The scouts weren't wrong then, either.