Patriots held private workout with FSU WR Kelvin Benjamin

[BradyFTW!]

Yeah but, we're more of a best player available team versus a draft for need. I can't imagine any wide out in the draft doesn't have a shot at beating out undrafted Mark Harrison.

I agree that the Pats draft almost strictly BPA from rounds 4 onward, but in the earlier rounds need plays a significant role. I think the general profiles look something like this:

Round 1: A prototypical athlete and solid character guy at a position of need. Will start from day one. (Chandler Jones and Hightower, for example)
Round 2: Strong player (either average athlete with great skills or top-tier athlete with passable skills) who plays a specific role that is a need on the team. Probably won't start year 1--and if he does start you'll be happy if you get league-average starter performance out of him--but should see significant effective snaps within his specialized role (Dobson and Collins, for example).
Round 3: Mostly BPA at this point, since there's probably nobody left that you can reliably pencil in as a starter, and anyone who does project as a starter is more a reflection on how little talent you currently have at that position than how good he actually is. But it would make sense if need still informs this pick somewhat.
Rounds 4-7: BPA. It's a longshot that any of these guys will ever play a significant role for you, so you just take the guy who has the best chance of becoming a real NFL player so that you'll hopefully have fewer holes down the line when it's all said and done.

Not that those are hard and fast rules; they're more just a reflection on the kind of talent that's typically available in the draft. Some drafts are deep enough that you can get a guy that fits the round 1 profile early in round 2 (Gronk in 2010), or a guy who fits the round 2 profile in round 3 (Logan Ryan last year). Others are so shallow that you have to settle on a round 2 profile guy in round 1 (Meriweather in 2007).

 

[manxman2601]

I don't get the Harrison thing. People are actually comparing a UDFA from a weaker draft class with a likely top 5 WR from what some are calling the deepest WR class ever.

I think the measurables stuff may be jumping the shark, right here in this thread.

You are forgetting his issue stemming from the combine - his trashed room. He also played with, quite frankly, one of the worst college QBs. He's worth a shot, something it looks like BB agrees with because he was kept all last year and survived the practice squad night of the long knives a couple of weeks ago.

And I don't understand the animosity towards Harrison. What's the issue? He doesn't cost anything in terms of the cap, he didn't cost anything to acquire, he's not keeping anyone else off the roster right now and he can be got rid of quite easily if he doesn't work out. On the other hand, he's got very good size and very good athleticism. Let's see what he can do. Where's the downside?

 

[Deus Irae]

You are forgetting his issue stemming from the combine - his trashed room. He also played with, quite frankly, one of the worst college QBs. He's worth a shot, something it looks like BB agrees with because he was kept all last year and survived the practice squad night of the long knives a couple of weeks ago.

And I don't understand the animosity towards Harrison. What's the issue? He doesn't cost anything in terms of the cap, he didn't cost anything to acquire, he's not keeping anyone else off the roster right now and he can be got rid of quite easily if he doesn't work out. On the other hand, he's got very good size and very good athleticism. Let's see what he can do. Where's the downside?

I'm not forgetting that issue, Manxman, but it really doesn't apply to my point. I'm talking about this fascination with equating measurables, especially at a position like WR (or WR/TE hybrid), where measurables are so meaningless, relatively speaking.

Also, I've got nothing against Harrison, and I'm not saying that the Patriots should try drafting Benjamin. I just don't think it makes sense to say things along the lines of "We don't need Benjamin, because we've got Harrison":

We already have Mark Harrison who is similarly big but actually faster.

When people are looking at Harrison (UDFA who did nothing last year) as a reason for not taking Benjamin, and they're looking at the measurables as part (or all) of the reason, I think we need to reassess the reliance on those measurables.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I don't get the Harrison thing. People are actually comparing a UDFA from a weaker draft class with a likely top 5 WR from what some are calling the deepest WR class ever.

I think the measurables stuff may be jumping the shark, right here in this thread.

Can't speak for others, but I used the comparison more to explain why I don't want Benjamin than to speak in Harrison's favor. Yeah, his measurables are very good, but there's a ton of guys with those measurables, including players on the roster right now, who will never amount to anything in the NFL. You have to evaluate the whole package, and in Benjamin's case the whole package isn't something that I'd want the Pats to invest a first round pick in. Maybe the end of the second round, but if ASJ is available at that point I'd much rather that they took him.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

I'm just gonna say it. I don't get the ASJ man love

 

[manxman2601]

I'm not forgetting that issue, Manxman, but it really doesn't apply to my point. I'm talking about this fascination with equating measurables, especially at a position like WR (or WR/TE hybrid), where measurables are so meaningless, relatively speaking.

Also, I've got nothing against Harrison, and I'm not saying that the Patriots should try drafting Benjamin. I just don't think it makes sense to say things along the lines of "We don't need Benjamin, because we've got Harrison":




When people are looking at Harrison (UDFA who did nothing last year) as a reason for not taking Benjamin, and they're looking at the measurables as part (or all) of the reason, I think we need to reassess the reliance on those measurables.

To be fair, I think only one person did that.

As for Harrison's measurables, I don't think anyone should look at them in isolation. But, when someone has top calibre measurables, I want to give him the chance to see how they translate. Hopefully we'll see that in pre-season.

Anyway, on to the main point. There are prospects I like more than Benjamin but I'm certainly intrigued by having a 6'5" 240lb receiver with a huge wingspan. If defensive backs are getting bigger, why not have receivers that are even bigger still?

 

[Deus Irae]

To be fair, I think only one person did that.

As for Harrison's measurables, I don't think anyone should look at them in isolation. But, when someone has top calibre measurables, I want to give him the chance to see how they translate. Hopefully we'll see that in pre-season.

Only one person explicitly said it, but the rest of you seem to be implying it, or at least feeding it, when you make a similar equation. Let me be the bad guy, since that's apparently my role here . As the NFLN was pointing out during the draft (pardon my paraphrasing), the last 15 guys who ran in the 4.3s have yielded one player of true note, to date, and that's Mike Wallace, whom people here are trashing in another thread. OR, to put it another way, Give me Wes Welker (or a healthy Danny Amendola) over Donnie Avery, all day, every day.

Anyway, on to the main point. There are prospects I like more than Benjamin but I'm certainly intrigued by having a 6'5" 240lb receiver with a huge wingspan. If defensive backs are getting bigger, why not have receivers that are even bigger still?

I hear you, and I've got no problem with that kind of take. The over reliance (IMO) on measurables is just starting to get at me. I certainly don't have a problem with them in general, as my love for Poe two years ago clearly demonstrated.

 

[BelichickFan]

I hear you, and I've got no problem with that kind of take. The over reliance (IMO) on measurables is just starting to get at me.

The reason I mentioned it is that measurables are all Benjamin has at this point. He's huge for a WR which makes him intriguing. But he's not Calvin Johnson, he's not as fast, he's not as refined, he's inexperienced and he has iffy hands.

He has tremendous upside due to his size but so does Harrison. If Harrison had been on a Florida St. national championship team - and made the game winning catch - he would possibly be catching the imagination of people too. Who knows why players go up and down draft boards. But in Benjamin's case it's not because he's a refined, ready to go WR. It's because you look at his size and say . . . wow. Put him on Rutgers and Harrison on FSU and you (generic person, not you specifically) very well might say the same things about the opposite players.

 

[manxman2601]

Only one person explicitly said it, but the rest of you seem to be implying it, or at least feeding it, when you make a similar equation. Let me be the bad guy, since that's apparently my role here . As the NFLN was pointing out during the draft (pardon my paraphrasing), the last 15 guys who ran in the 4.3s have yielded one player of true note, to date, and that's Mike Wallace, whom people here are trashing in another thread. OR, to put it another way, Give me Wes Welker (or a healthy Danny Amendola) over Donnie Avery, all day, every day.

I don't think I implied it because I've never thought it. I might have thought it with regards to Brandon Coleman but not Benjamin.

As for Harrison's measurables, he wasn't a 4.3 runner (4.46 at the combine). It was the speed, explosion and short area quickness (6.99 3-cone) on a 6-3 frame that was impressive.

I hear you, and I've got no problem with that kind of take. The over reliance (IMO) on measurables is just starting to get at me.

It's combine season. It'll die down on May 11th.

But, if you look at BB's drafting, measurables are really important.

 

[Deus Irae]

The reason I mentioned it is that measurables are all Benjamin has at this point. He's huge for a WR which makes him intriguing. But he's not Calvin Johnson, he's not as fast, he's not as refined, he's inexperienced and he has iffy hands.

He has tremendous upside due to his size but so does Harrison. If Harrison had been on a Florida St. national championship team - and made the game winning catch - he would possibly be catching the imagination of people too. Who knows why players go up and down draft boards. But in Benjamin's case it's not because he's a refined, ready to go WR. It's because you look at his size and say . . . wow. Put him on Rutgers and Harrison on FSU and you (generic person, not you specifically) very well might say the same things about the opposite players.

I wasn't trying to call you out specifically, so please don't take it that way. That's part of why I didn't use just your quote in my response, instead pairing it with another. I've noticed that forum posters (not just here) are really starting to use the measurables as a crutch rather than just a small part of the puzzle. This thread just seemed like a really blatant example of it. Measurables, particularly at certain positions (i.e. WR) are often meaningless on their own, and saying one guy looks like the other guy, or is bigger/faster/quicker doesn't much matter in the end. To use the example I chose earlier, Donnie Avery has Wes Welker beat in just about every category. No GM with a brain would go back in time and still draft Avery over Welker.



Hell, we all know about Chad Jackson.... :bricks:

 

[Deus Irae]

...It's combine season. It'll die down on May 11th.

But, if you look at BB's drafting, measurables are really important.

BB's WR drafting isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of drafting by measurables.

 

[manxman2601]

BB's WR drafting isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of drafting by measurables.

How about Logan Mankins? Nate Solder or Sebastian Vollmer? Julian Edelman. Jerod Mayo etc. All were masters of the measurables performance. He puts a winning team out every single year. I think he drafts just fine.

 

[Deus Irae]

How about Logan Mankins? Nate Solder or Sebastian Vollmer? Julian Edelman. Jerod Mayo etc. All were masters of the measurables performance. He puts a winning team out every single year. I think he drafts just fine.

Now you're moving the goalposts, as I've specifically pointed to the WR position, multiple times, as one of those where the measurables are much less reliable.

 

[manxman2601]

Now you're moving the goalposts, as I've specifically pointed to the WR position, multiple times, as one of those where the measurables are much less reliable.

I'm not. When I said this:

But, if you look at BB's drafting, measurables are really important.

I meant across the board, not just at WR. If you look on the draft board today, you'll see that I wrote a post about the OL and the vertical jump.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not. When I said this:



I meant across the board, not just at WR. If you look on the draft board today, you'll see that I wrote a post about the OL and the vertical jump.

My responses have been geared towards the WRs, since this has been a WR thread. I've also acknowledged that looking at measurables is not always a bad thing (See Poe, Dontari), but I've stuck to the WR/TE hybrid for the discussion. You may note that I did not toss out the dumpster fire that's been the DB drafting, when I easily could have:

...I'm talking about this fascination with equating measurables, especially at a position like WR (or WR/TE hybrid), where measurables are so meaningless, relatively speaking...

... As the NFLN was pointing out during the draft (pardon my paraphrasing), the last 15 guys who ran in the 4.3s have yielded one player of true note, to date, and that's Mike Wallace, whom people here are trashing in another thread. OR, to put it another way, Give me Wes Welker (or a healthy Danny Amendola) over Donnie Avery, all day, every day....

...I hear you, and I've got no problem with that kind of take. The over reliance (IMO) on measurables is just starting to get at me. I certainly don't have a problem with them in general, as my love for Poe two years ago clearly demonstrated.

...Measurables, particularly at certain positions (i.e. WR) are often meaningless on their own, and saying one guy looks like the other guy, or is bigger/faster/quicker doesn't much matter in the end. To use the example I chose earlier, Donnie Avery has Wes Welker beat in just about every category. No GM with a brain would go back in time and still draft Avery over Welker.



Hell, we all know about Chad Jackson.... :bricks:

When you start trying to broaden the discussion to Mankins, et al in a response to my talking about BB's use of measurables for his WRs in a thread about WRs and a sub-thread about WRs, you're moving the goalposts.

Maybe this particular aspect of the discussion is just played out....

 

[TruthSeeker]

I don't think we'll take him if he's there and it's probably below 50-50 he'll he there but there's 5 WR who could go before him and it's a deep draft. There's absolutely a chance he will be. In this draft the "he won't be there" line needs to be used carefully because compared to last year there's probably 40 players who won't be there at #29.

Agree 100%, I think he MAY be there at 29. Watkins, Lee, Evans and maybe even Beckham may go before him. I'd definitely grab him at 29. He can probably replace Hernandez in our offense, and even Gronk until he returns. I prefer Evans, but Benjamin is a BEAST !

 

[TruthSeeker]

I would add one further argument against it: Brandon Coleman. He doesn't have the 240lb body, but in every other regard, he's the same physical specimen and he could be had much later.

They have now had contact with Coleman, Evans and Benjamin. I think there's definite interest in adding this bigger bodied receiver.

My only problem with Coleman is, he's not physical like Evans and Benjamin, in fact, I've read somewhere that he plays way smaller than his size.

 

[manxman2601]

When you start trying to broaden the discussion to Mankins, et al in a response to my talking about BB's use of measurables for his WRs in a thread about WRs and a sub-thread about WRs, you're moving the goalposts.

There's a difference between moving the goalposts and broadening the discussion.

Maybe this particular aspect of the discussion is just played out....

Especially as we largely agree. I don't think receivers can be judged primarily on measurables. However, I think they are more important than you seem to.

 

[BelichickFan]

Agree 100%, I think he MAY be there at 29. Watkins, Lee, Evans and maybe even Beckham may go before him.

I expect Watkins, Evans and Beckham to go before Benjamin. And Cooks could depending on the teams. That would make Benjamin 5th and probably go before us. Lee is the one I expect to drop below Benjamin but if he doesn't that would make Benjamin the 6th WR. There's no way to predict it, I would simply say that Benjamin probably will be gone but it's by no means a certaintly. Although I see the intrigue, I still very likely wouldn't take him at #29. Although the thought of Benjamin, Gronk, Dobson, LaFell and Edelman in the red zone is interesting.

 

[Deus Irae]

Just a note:

Since I don't expect BB to go WR in round 1, I'm all for lots of them being picked ahead of the Patriots round 1 selection.