OT: Cavs vs. Warriors (Who Wins the NBA Finals?)

[Froob]

Respect. And half the leadership ability and no killer instinct like Kobe. I'm taking Kobe for more intangibles and a proven winning pedigree.

Both are ****ty leaders. The killer instinct in LeBron hasn't really been that big of an issue since 2012. It's more of a problem for Kobe, LeBron you can trust to make the right decision at the end of games. Kobe will always take the shot.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Both are ****ty leaders. The killer instinct in LeBron hasn't really been that big of an issue since 2012. It's more of a problem for Kobe, LeBron you can trust to make the right decision at the end of games. Kobe will always take the shot.

Larry Bird said if you want to have fun, play with LBJ. If you want to win play with Kobe.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Larry Bird said if you want to have fun, play with LBJ. If you want to win play with Kobe.

The defense rests, your honor.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Both are ****ty leaders. The killer instinct in LeBron hasn't really been that big of an issue since 2012. It's more of a problem for Kobe, LeBron you can trust to make the right decision at the end of games. Kobe will always take the shot.

I respect your viewpoint, but disagree. Big difference between being liked and being respected. And I'd rather have my star player take as many last shots as possible. That's why he's the star. That's why he's the leader. You obviously can win both ways, but I'll take the guy with the better winning percentage any day of the week. Jordan was not the most liked player in the locker room.

 

[Froob]

Larry Bird said if you want to have fun, play with LBJ. If you want to win play with Kobe.

Hah gotta love Bird, he's a straight shooter. But, I'll still take LeBron and the stats back it up. I'm not a Kobe hater just LeBron is much more efficient (especially super friends era LeBron he had a year where he shot like 57% I don't think Kobe has ever topped 50) and is much more of a team player. I'd still take Kobe on my team any day. Him and KG would have been quite the pair of God forbid Lakers had beaten us to him.

 

[Froob]

I respect your viewpoint, but disagree. Big difference between being liked and being respected. And I'd rather have my star player take as many last shots as possible. That's why he's the star. That's why he's the leader. You obviously can win both ways, but I'll take the guy with the better winning percentage any day of the week. Jordan was not the most liked player in the locker room.

I can respect that, here's my reason why I don't want that

 

[letekro]

LOL at these lists. A lot of these guys own mothers would rank Lebron ahead.

 

[Froob]

LOL at these lists. A lot of these guys own mothers would rank Lebron ahead.

I've seen Kobe ranked #2 behind MJ lol.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I can respect that, here's my reason why I don't want that

Well when you put it like that, Froo, sh*t. j/k

Trust me when I tell you I know what you're saying about Kobe, as it was on full display for years in his prime. I'm not justifying it either. LeBron has less of these photo ops in his catalogue, no doubt. LOL But a) Kobe got better at being more well-rounded later in his career and they won way more than they lost and b) you still want your star to be that aggressive when it matters most. Kobe never shied from that. Yet, that's one of the key criticisms that occurred after OKC lost to the Warriors in regard to Durant seemingly becoming extremely passive in crunch time, while playing "hero ball," as Charles Barkley put it, for large stretches early in multiple games. Kobe, more often than not, rose to the occasion, win or lose. Other players respond to that. Again, players seem to generally enjoy LeBron's personality and they play well, but I feel it's because Kobe demands more of the guys around him. And again,whether teammates actually really like it or not, I feel it's the more proven formula. This is entirely my opinion and speculation, as we'll never truly know, but I feel given the same teams that LeBron has had, there is NO WAY Kobe is 2-5 right now. I just don't see it.

 

[letekro]

Care to explain how Russell is better than Lebron? He shot 44% from the field while being guarded on most nights by 6' 7" white boys. That is a terrible percentage for a post player. Awful. He Couldn't shoot free throws. He was routinely dominated by the one great center he played against. Yes he blocked a lot of shots of those same 6' 7" white boys. Great. How about this--he was a very good defensive center who also happened to be on the best team of his era. Switch him with Wilt and you switch the number of championships.

 

[letekro]

The trait of great of players is that they made the players around them better ...

LeBron has never done that ... and never will.

I agree ... not even close .. he's a stat machine ... no more and no less.

Ah, the "makes other guys better" argument. The always useful arbitrary standard to explain away statistical dominance. I'm sure Bird would have turned Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao into Dennis Johnson and Kevin McHale if he had only had the chance!

LeBron clearly makes other players better because when he drives the entire defense has to collapse on him. He is an elite passer, so those possessions all end up either in paint shots for him, a foul, or open three pointers. Getting a teammate an open shot rather than a contested one means you are making him better. You have already admitted that you hate him personally. So no wonder your analysis is completely biased.

As just one example, check out DWade's FG% during the Lebron era vs. the rest of his career.

 

[realtime]

Care to explain how Russell is better than Lebron? He shot 44% from the field while being guarded on most nights by 6' 7" white boys. That is a terrible percentage for a post player. Awful. He Couldn't shoot free throws. He was routinely dominated by the one great center he played against. Yes he blocked a lot of shots of those same 6' 7" white boys. Great. How about this--he was a very good defensive center who also happened to be on the best team of his era. Switch him with Wilt and you switch the number of championships.

I don't think anyone unbiased sincerely believes that. SI and ESPN recently did their own top 50 lists. LeBron was top 5 in both and Russell was in the 7 or 8 range. Alcindor and Wilt were top 5 on both lists as well. I think that is about right.

 

[Froob]

LeBron seems to make role players much better and stars worse.

 

[Froob]

Well when you put it like that, Froo, sh*t. j/k

Trust me when I tell you I know what you're saying about Kobe, as it was on full display for years in his prime. I'm not justifying it either. LeBron has less of these photo ops in his catalogue, no doubt. LOL But a) Kobe got better at being more well-rounded later in his career and they won way more than they lost and b) you still want your star to be that aggressive when it matters most. Kobe never shied from that. Yet, that's one of the key criticisms that occurred after OKC lost to the Warriors in regard to Durant seemingly becoming extremely passive in crunch time, while playing "hero ball," as Charles Barkley put it, for large stretches early in multiple games. Kobe, more often than not, rose to the occasion, win or lose. Other players respond to that. Again, players seem to generally enjoy LeBron's personality and they play well, but I feel it's because Kobe demands more of the guys around him. And again,whether teammates actually really like it or not, I feel it's the more proven formula. This is entirely my opinion and speculation, as we'll never truly know, but I feel given the same teams that LeBron has had, there is NO WAY Kobe is 2-5 right now. I just don't see it.

Kobe may have won in 2011 but nowhere in hell he wins in 07, 14 & 15.

 

[letekro]

I don't think anyone unbiased sincerely believes that. SI and ESPN recently did their own top 50 lists. LeBron was top 5 in both and Russell was in the 7 or 8 range. Alcindor and Wilt were top 5 on both lists as well. I think that is about right.

I thought the Jack McCollum one (Hall of fame writer for SI--saw Russell and Wilt and person) you reference was well done. At the end of the day, these are all opinions, but it just seems more likely that the Russell stuff is based more on the 11 championships than on this actual play. I think Championships are very important on the margins. For example, if Wilt and Russell were fairly comparable statistically but Russell had him in championships 11-2, then Russell gets the nod. But they were not in the same league statistically, so the champsionships are not really relevant. Same thing with football. Terry Bradshaw has more 'chips than Peyton Manning, but it would be silly to suggest that makes him a better quarterback. It is obviously relevant to the Manning Brady debate because they are close statistically.

 

[Froob]

I thought the Jack McCollum one (Hall of fame writer for SI--saw Russell and Wilt and person) you reference was well done. At the end of the day, these are all opinions, but it just seems more likely that the Russell stuff is based more on the 11 championships than on this actual play. I think Championships are very important on the margins. For example, if Wilt and Russell were fairly comparable statistically but Russell had him in championships 11-2, then Russell gets the nod. But they were not in the same league statistically, so the champsionships are not really relevant. Same thing with football. Terry Bradshaw has more 'chips than Peyton Manning, but it would be silly to suggest that makes him a better quarterback. It is obviously relevant to the Manning Brady debate because they are close statistically.

Interestingly enough, Wilt himself said he wouldn't have won as many titles for the Celtics as Russ did if they swopped spots. Many told him he would have won more but he disagreed. He said Russ was exactly what they needed.

 

[realtime]

I thought the Jack McCollum one (Hall of fame writer for SI--saw Russell and Wilt and person) you reference was well done. At the end of the day, these are all opinions, but it just seems more likely that the Russell stuff is based more on the 11 championships than on this actual play. I think Championships are very important on the margins. For example, if Wilt and Russell were fairly comparable statistically but Russell had him in championships 11-2, then Russell gets the nod. But they were not in the same league statistically, so the champsionships are not really relevant. Same thing with football. Terry Bradshaw has more 'chips than Peyton Manning, but it would be silly to suggest that makes him a better quarterback. It is obviously relevant to the Manning Brady debate because they are close statistically.

If you transported various players from the past through time and dropped them into the modern NBA, I think their modern comps would look something like this:

Wilt -- Olajuwon
Russell -- DeAndre Jordan/Hassan Whiteside
Pettit -- Dino Radja (lol -- I'm serious, though)

Wilt and Russell were both way ahead of their time athletically, but Wilt was significantly more ahead of his time.

 

[letekro]

Interestingly enough, Wilt himself said he wouldn't have won as many titles for the Celtics as Russ did if they swopped spots. Many told him he would have won more but he disagreed. He said Russ was exactly what they needed.

Because they already had a ton of offense?

 

[TBR]

If you transported various players from the past through time and dropped them into the modern NBA, I think their modern comps would look something like this:

Wilt -- Olajuwon
Russell -- DeAndre Jordan/Hassan Whiteside
Pettit -- Dino Radja (lol -- I'm serious, though)

Wilt and Russell were both way ahead of their time athletically, but Wilt was significantly more ahead of his time.

I have no idea how DeAndre Jordan made the All-NBA 1st Team Center.

DeMarcus Cousins is far better without question.

 

[rochrist]

Care to explain how Russell is better than Lebron? He shot 44% from the field while being guarded on most nights by 6' 7" white boys. That is a terrible percentage for a post player. Awful. He Couldn't shoot free throws. He was routinely dominated by the one great center he played against. Yes he blocked a lot of shots of those same 6' 7" white boys. Great. How about this--he was a very good defensive center who also happened to be on the best team of his era. Switch him with Wilt and you switch the number of championships.

If you need that explained, you know nothing at all about basketball.