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OT: And things just get worse for Vick


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I don't get it myself, he should be a hated by all but his teammates seem to love him, his fans do to, opposing fans cheer when he hits a HR (they often boo before), former MLB players defend him. It's a weird world and I don't get it.

They even cheered him in Boston, eventually. Go figure. Apparently it's because the media has been working diligently at softening up the masses for some time now with the mantra that most everyone in baseball has been cheating for the last 20 odd years and you'd really need to asterik the whole era. Look at the support Rose still gets from the people who would vote him into the HOF if not for the fact that his name is precluded from the ballot.

Heck, if it eventually came to light (and I don't think it will) that half the players in the NFL were breeding and selling fighting dogs, a majority of NFL fans would likely be convinced over time to turtle on that issue too. Which is why the gambling tie in is the only one that will really matter at the end of the Vick saga. Gambling gets you banned in most sports because of the ties to organized crime, and ties the hands of a media with a short attention span that is thoroughly enamored with "exciting" talent to the point that character ceases to matter.
 
Dog-fighting is the tip of the iceberg?

That's a mighty bold statement.

What could possibly be worse?

Hurting people?

Don't get me wrong, torturing animals is indicative of perhaps the weakest moral character imaginable. I'm a bit puzzled, though, by the fact that we seem to get alot more worked up by it than by crazy violence against people. Show people a movie with innocent people getting slaughtered and it's sort of par for the course -- we're very desensitized toward it. Show a dog getting hurt, and there is much stronger reaction.

I mean, we harm and hurt animals all the time. What we do to some of the things we eat isn't that different from what Michael Vick did. It's just legal. And I think other than the most fervent PETA types, most understand and sadly accept that experimentation (including some quite brutal stuff) on animals to find cures for horrible human diseases is a choice that a civilized society can make responsibly.

I would posit to you that given the number of players in the NFL and the rough circumstances that many of them have come out of, there are players currently on rosters that have done some very very bad things in their lives, and some of it that I personally would find worse than what Michael Vick is accused of doing, which is not to minimize what I said about about the moral depravity it takes to fight and execute dogs.
 
I am totally sick of former players defending current players regardless of their actions. Key offenders being, Sanders, Irvin, and Jamie Dukesbag
 
I think the most telling thing in the indictment was the electrocuting of the dog. It shows that they were actually enjoying what they were doing and not just executing the dogs more humanely. It seemed like a game to them.
 
Hurting people?

Don't get me wrong, torturing animals is indicative of perhaps the weakest moral character imaginable. I'm a bit puzzled, though, by the fact that we seem to get alot more worked up by it than by crazy violence against people. Show people a movie with innocent people getting slaughtered and it's sort of par for the course -- we're very desensitized toward it. Show a dog getting hurt, and there is much stronger reaction.

I mean, we harm and hurt animals all the time. What we do to some of the things we eat isn't that different from what Michael Vick did. It's just legal. And I think other than the most fervent PETA types, most understand and sadly accept that experimentation (including some quite brutal stuff) on animals to find cures for horrible human diseases is a choice that a civilized society can make responsibly.

I would posit to you that given the number of players in the NFL and the rough circumstances that many of them have come out of, there are players currently on rosters that have done some very very bad things in their lives, and some of it that I personally would find worse than what Michael Vick is accused of doing, which is not to minimize what I said about about the moral depravity it takes to fight and execute dogs.


Oh, I agree.

I didn't mean to imply that hurting animals is more egregious than hurting humans. What I meant was, given the scope of the allegations already surrounding Vick, what else could he have done as an allegedly active participant in dog-fighting that would appear even more criminal? Reflex mentioned the possibility that strays and even family pets were aquired for target practice. I shudder to think that even Vick could do something that heartless.
 
I have no idea they didn't say.But did say they wanted to wait till after Taylor pleads out. They did mention something about Vick driveing around and picking up dogs,family pets for his dogs to train on. Right now it's all conjecture.

Stealing people's dogs to train his? That's sick!


The only problem is that M. Vick IS the big fish....in terms of celebrity, notoriety. If he looks up, there's not too many people to turn on ....
if any...........Once the feds have you in their ights intending to make an example, look out. Ask Martha Stewart, Leona Helmsley or the guys from Enron or Adelphia Cable.....


* Martha and Leona had no one bigger to rat out. The guys they got witn
Enron, MCI and Alelphis were the big fish. While Vick may have the name recognition I sincerely doubt he's that big a player in dog fighting circles. There are guys who probably just do dog fighting, make more money at it and do little else that the feds would really like to get and really put a crimp in the whole dog fighting scene. If all they get are Vick and his 2 codefendants, I don't think it puts a very big dent in the dog fighting as a whole.

Hey, it doesn't get much bigger than being the guy that owns the f-kkng place where the sh!t is run. Vick may not be the *only* big fish, but he's as big as any other.
 
Oh, I agree.

I didn't mean to imply that hurting animals is more egregious than hurting humans. What I meant was, given the scope of the allegations already surrounding Vick, what else could he have done as an allegedly active participant in dog-fighting that would appear even more criminal? Reflex mentioned the possibility that strays and even family pets were aquired for target practice. I shudder to think that even Vick could do something that heartless.
I think people love their dogs more than most other people. Dogs love unconditionally, and anyone who would harm such a creature is, to some, more evil than someone who would hurt a person. Some people do things so awful they deserve torture and death. Knowing some people and dogs, I have to admit that I've considered punching a person in the face for good reason, but have never considered hurting a dog. In some cases, dogs deserve better treatment than people. This is why people are so freaked-out.
 
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Show people a movie with innocent people getting slaughtered and it's sort of par for the course -- we're very desensitized toward it. Show a dog getting hurt, and there is much stronger reaction.

OT, but I was really freaked by this in Independence Day. There's that scene where hundreds of people are slaughtered but the crowd bursts into cheers at the moment of annihilation because a dog leaps to safety, in slow motion. Anyway...

Animal torture is illegal and immoral. If a child hurts animals, that's the #1 warning sign of serious psychological disturbance. It's bad stuff. But it captures our attention disproportionately and can distract attention from broader issues. The allegations all circle around the idea that Vick may have been running a large-scale illegal gambling operation. How do the "he just loves them tough puppies" apologists deal with that?
 
Hey, it doesn't get much bigger than being the guy that owns the f-kkng place where the sh!t is run. Vick may not be the *only* big fish, but he's as big as any other.[/QUOTE]

* Vick's home is far from the only place where dogs are trained to fight in the US. I really doubt Mike Vick is the biggest player in dog fighting circles in the US. Do you really think he's the kingpin of dog fighting in the country? Wouldn't his dogs need dogs from other trainers to fight against? DO you really think he's the king of dog fighting in the US?
 
Oh, I agree.

I didn't mean to imply that hurting animals is more egregious than hurting humans. What I meant was, given the scope of the allegations already surrounding Vick, what else could he have done as an allegedly active participant in dog-fighting that would appear even more criminal? Reflex mentioned the possibility that strays and even family pets were aquired for target practice. I shudder to think that even Vick could do something that heartless.

Ahh -- I misunderstood. I agree.

Though in truth, in some small way, I can see the psychological link between being a football player in the NFL and being attracted to dog fighting. Football is a brutal game, and the closest thing we have to gladiator combat. Going to a game, you really do get the sense of it more than on tv, where it's about stylized violence, sex, and beer.

I can sort of see how an already twisted individual from a bad environment might unconsciously see supervising over dog fighting to be not dissimilar from how he feels treated by owners and fans who cheer what is, in some respects, a brutal game.

Not making excuses here, by the way. Just playing amature psychologist and explaining why I wouldn't be surprised if more NFL players than just Vick are attracted to this sort of depravity.
 
Do you really think he's the kingpin of dog fighting in the country? Wouldn't his dogs need dogs from other trainers to fight against? DO you really think he's the king of dog fighting in the US?

What makes you believe there is anyone bigger than Vick out there when it comes to dogfighting? Or, that there has to be a"kingpin"? It may well be that Vick's operation was one of the biggest in the country because of the capital he was able to put behind it from his millions in earnings as a pro athlete. The indictment indicates that other dogs were brought in from out of state for the matches held on his property, so it definitely was a serious operation.
 
Hey, it doesn't get much bigger than being the guy that owns the f-kkng place where the sh!t is run. Vick may not be the *only* big fish, but he's as big as any other.

* Vick's home is far from the only place where dogs are trained to fight in the US. I really doubt Mike Vick is the biggest player in dog fighting circles in the US. Do you really think he's the kingpin of dog fighting in the country? Wouldn't his dogs need dogs from other trainers to fight against? DO you really think he's the king of dog fighting in the US?[/quote]

Sad to say I read an article saying that dog fighting is big here in NH. Cuts across many strata of society.
 
Gon_Trevil said:
Hey, it doesn't get much bigger than being the guy that owns the f-kkng place where the sh!t is run. Vick may not be the *only* big fish, but he's as big as any other.

PatsSteve1 said:
* Vick's home is far from the only place where dogs are trained to fight in the US. I really doubt Mike Vick is the biggest player in dog fighting circles in the US. Do you really think he's the kingpin of dog fighting in the country? Wouldn't his dogs need dogs from other trainers to fight against? DO you really think he's the king of dog fighting in the US?


Steve, you really HAVE TO learn how to do the quote thingy since your method confuses what others say to you with your response to them...

Given how tough it is to build a case against this kind of secretive subculture activity, Vick would likely have to do a lot more than name names - he would have to testify to specific acts he witnesses and/or provide some sort of hard evidence to corroberate his testimony. That's just digging his hole bigger and deeper. I doubt he could plead out of jail time at that rate, and he might not survive long if he did. The other thing he could do is implicate others in his ring, including athletes. But of course that would kill his career quicker than any suspension or conviction. He's really about as jammed up as you could get yourself. He tried to distance himself from these three and cousin Boddie the instant the news broke, and there was a price to pay for that strategy - his crew ain't gonna take the fall for him.

The guys who roll on him are being given a chance to corroberate already existing evidence and charges. As a lawyer was quoted saying on NFLN last night, once Taylor testifies against Vick as being fully involved in the enterprise, the prosecutions case on consipracy is essentially MADE. Vick then is guilty of anything and everything any of them did in the furtherance of the dog fighting ring "conspiracy". Including killing dogs or procuring test dogs or making bets or hauling dogs from fight to fight, or hosting fights on Moonlight Road, etc.

There is still another potentially interesting shoe to drop beyond the superceding indictment and Taylor's testimony. It's who bought that house in 24 hours. The papers have yet to be filed with the clerk in Surry County, but the rumor is heads will turn when they see who it is. Sounds like it was someone looking to help Mike make his troubles all go away, as usual. Is it a teamate or some one else with NFL affiliations, or one of Michael's handlers, or a local politician or some celebrity/athlete with a soft spot for big bad dogs and those who breed them to fight? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
Steve, you really HAVE TO learn how to do the quote thingy since your method confuses what others say to you with your response to them...

Given how tough it is to build a case against this kind of secretive subculture activity, Vick would likely have to do a lot more than name names - he would have to testify to specific acts he witnesses and/or provide some sort of hard evidence to corroberate his testimony.

* I do hit the quote button but don't get the blue background. Pats1 fixed it once but it doesn't work anymore. And I am suggesting that Vick would have to testify to what he knows. And I am suggesting that if he did that, he could plead guilty, do little if any time, say he's sorry, blah blah blah and possibly revive his NFL career. If he goes to trial and is found guilty, he'll likley do too much time and never have his career back.
 
If you're gonna cop a plea for easy time you really need a high profile much bigger fish as bait for the Feds. I doubt Vick has that. He IS high profile. Just what the Feds want.
 
If you're gonna cop a plea for easy time you really need a high profile much bigger fish as bait for the Feds. I doubt Vick has that. He IS high profile. Just what the Feds want.

* Whoever the biggest players in dog fighting are and one that has a well known name, isn't the same thing. The biggest players in dog fighting aren't well known names because dog fighting isn't in the local sport section.
This following link is to a CNN story that quotes a dog fighting expert that says around 40,000 people are involved in dogfighting. Another 100,000 are estimated to be involved in so called streetfighting. I don't believe Mike Vick is the biggest player in dog fighting and if he knew enough about the bigger players and could testify 1st person evidence he could make a deal for himself that the feds would gladly go along with. If others don't, fine. I know dogging(pun intended) Mike Vick is more fun -:)
 
Hurting people?

Don't get me wrong, torturing animals is indicative of perhaps the weakest moral character imaginable. I'm a bit puzzled, though, by the fact that we seem to get alot more worked up by it than by crazy violence against people. Show people a movie with innocent people getting slaughtered and it's sort of par for the course -- we're very desensitized toward it. Show a dog getting hurt, and there is much stronger reaction.

I mean, we harm and hurt animals all the time. What we do to some of the things we eat isn't that different from what Michael Vick did. It's just legal. And I think other than the most fervent PETA types, most understand and sadly accept that experimentation (including some quite brutal stuff) on animals to find cures for horrible human diseases is a choice that a civilized society can make responsibly.

I would posit to you that given the number of players in the NFL and the rough circumstances that many of them have come out of, there are players currently on rosters that have done some very very bad things in their lives, and some of it that I personally would find worse than what Michael Vick is accused of doing, which is not to minimize what I said about about the moral depravity it takes to fight and execute dogs.

This was not alledgely about a single dog. This was essentially mass murder and torture of dogs on a large scale, with Vick being the guy that bought an entire property for this single purpose, as well as supplying all the financial backing.

A crime of passion where OJ kills his ex-wife is clearly awful, and we all feel bad for Nicole and her boyfriend, But it was a quick and isolated incident which may not have even been planned (at least not very carefully). OJ never ran a plantation for torturing wives. He is more likely just a self centered POS with serious anger management issues.

This dog fighting ring is essentially an organized crime syndicate with a blingy name (Bad newz), a place of operation (Vick's crib), and a CEO (Vick), as well as COO (Taylor).

It is alledged to have gone on for 5 years, if I am not mistaken. That is a lot of blood shed for a lot of dogs.

I disagree that there are very likely to be ANY players in the NFL who have done worse than this. Add up all the suffering of all these dogs, and I just can't imagine what you would compare it to? A couple of bar fights, beating up some fellow college students? Getting drunk and crashing your car, and accidently killing somebody in the process of driving home (with no actual malice aforethought).

Some people feel that humans deserve so much more protection that dogs, but I see it the other way around. I see dogs as being at the mercy of their owners, and not having any real protection from cruelty in most situations. Humans, meanwhile, have some form of a justice system at their call.

Vick was clearly warned not to engage in this type of behavior coming out of college. For him to give the big f#ck you to the league that has made him a multi millionaire international celebrity, and sponsor a criminal enterprise based on dog fighting, is dumb. But it also shows that he really thinks he is above the law, and also will bite the hand that feeds him. And, of course, that he is immune to the suffering of animals.

The nature of the crime is very premeditated. If this was about even one single human, instead of countless dogs, he would be facing the death penalty. There is almost no chance that he will ever get the full 6 years, however, because it isn't about humans suffering. Most likely he cops a plea or gets convicted on some lesser crime and spends a year in jail.
 
* Whoever the biggest players in dog fighting are and one that has a well known name, isn't the same thing. The biggest players in dog fighting aren't well known names because dog fighting isn't in the local sport section.
This following link is to a CNN story that quotes a dog fighting expert that says around 40,000 people are involved in dogfighting. Another 100,000 are estimated to be involved in so called streetfighting. I don't believe Mike Vick is the biggest player in dog fighting and if he knew enough about the bigger players and could testify 1st person evidence he could make a deal for himself that the feds would gladly go along with. If others don't, fine. I know dogging(pun intended) Mike Vick is more fun -:)

Steve, Steve, Steve, Vick is the biggest NAME player. No way he can give up someone else with a higher profile than he. The Feds are creaming themselves over him. His conviction is a career making event.
 
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Steve, Steve, Steve, Vick is the biggest NAME player. No way he can give up someone else with a higher profile than he. The Feds are creaming themselves over him. His conviction is a career making event.

Phil, Phil, Phil, the biggest NAME player doesn't mean he's the biggest player in dogfighting. How many of the 40,000 people supposedly involved in dogfighting have you heard of besides Vick and his 2 cohorts? You probably haven't because they don't want anyone to know who they are.
If what's in the indictment is true and the feds can prove it, then they already have Vick. They already made the big splash in the media.
And if Vick knows the feds can prove it he may as well plead guilty and the feds would be incompetent not to see what Vick could testify to get bigger
players.
If Tom Brady were busted for a coke dealing and could give 1st person testimony to convict one of the biggest guys involved in coke smuggling and dealing in the country(that noone had heard of). You think the feds would just say, "Hey we got Tom Brady, what more do we want?"
 
No, no, no. The biggest 'name' in dogfighting is Vick, unless somehow **** Cheney is involved. :)
Feds care about public names. It's not like there's a USA Czar of dogfighting.
 
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